Lebron James' NBA Finals record is now 2-3, fails to 3-peat this year

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jordan0386 said:
Majority of the Bulls playoff matchups were against guards who weren't capable of more than 17 a game. Where as MJ can put up 35 in his sleep.

All we remember is Jordan getting fouled hard and being played tough by Starks. MJ still had his 35 and Starks and the rest still barely had their 17.

There is fatigue and sometimes you lose due to fatigue.

The bulls were up 3-1 in majority of their early round battles. MJ was two levels above everybody else at the guard spot.

The league had great players, but as an individual Mike was too good.
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uhhh Clyde Drexler? it's funny in retrospect but at the time it was given serious consideration.
when did you start watching basketball?
 
vas_a_morir said:
Do you really believe this? You believe top athletes are less athletic than their counterparts two decades earlier? You may argue that Jordan's competitors were closer in skill level to him than today's competitors are to Lebron, but comparing eras 20 years apart? No contest. The level of athleticism, size, and depth on today's NBA rosters is on another level. It's not a knock on Jordan. IT's just the nature of human advancement in sports.
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Bolded is so so true. And that doesn't account for the strategic evolution of the game do to the analytics movement.
 
Redd said:
Grant wasn't with the Bulls on the second run. My memory is fuzzy but I think he was playing for Orlando.
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Guess my memory was fuzzy as well!

Still my point stands: those 72 win Bulls were better because Pippen would've shut Leonard down for sure. And no one could stop Jordan.
 
BqQOXnoIYAA2xG5.jpg


Kevin Durant Believes Kawhi Leonard Is Product of Spurs System
 
peterb0y said:
2 things:
1- Mike miller was huge for us- could handle the ball, could rebound, and space w/ shooting. He had a GREAT year this year, we def could have used him
2- I don't understand your argument at all. Manu had a really bad series last year- and thats a big part of why SA lost. This year, wade and bosh weren't good, along w/ chalmers and co. Thats a big part of why we lost.

So... whats the issue?
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The point is that this is a 4 time finals, back-to-back defending championship team until Lebron's legacy is challenged then they are reduced to garbage bags hanging from his neck.

Yes, the rest of the team didn't play well enough to win. Yes they are getting older. Yes their level of play is slipping. But none to the extreme that the witness protection is trying to frame it.
 
v0yce said:
The point is that this is a 4 time finals, back-to-back defending championship team until Lebron's legacy is challenged then they are reduced to garbage bags hanging from his neck.

Yes, the rest of the team didn't play well enough to win. Yes they are getting older. Yes their level of play is slipping. But none to the extreme that the witness protection is trying to frame it.
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What is there to frame? The stats are right there to analyze. You're going off the names. By that metric, Kobe is the greatest failure in the world for not winning w/ Dwight and Nash. They were close to garbage bags this series. And they weren't last year, which is a huge part of why we won.

Not sure what you're arguing really.
 
hucast21 said:
He was. It was Penny, Shaq, and Grant that knocked out the Bulls in the playoffs when MJ came back from retirement.
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Never liked how Shaq left the Magic. Had such a good squad there. Imo he should get way more hate than Lebron how he ducked out of Orlando.
 
genjiZERO said:
Oh, I agree. It's just that that's the way it's perceived by a lot of people.

RIght, it's the difference in narrative that bother people. Lebron's PR team made some big mistakes and his popularity has suffered for it.
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The narrative is what hurts Lebron's legacy So much. And I would be surprised if this wasn't something that he himself wanted to push.

Wizman23 said:
BULLSHIT. Gilbert would take him back in a heartbeat and I sure as hell would as a Cleveland fan. Watching your team play playoff games is a hell of a lot more fun then watching the lottery.
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After that whole open letter, I dunno. I personally think Dan Gilbert is cheap.

Wizman23 said:
What in the FUCK!? 8th seeded teams from the Jordan era would smash the number seeds of today. It would not even be a competition.
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Agreed.

Unfair comparison. League rules in the 90s were very lax in terms of what a foul call was.

In this era of basketball, those 90s teams would decimate today's athletes.
 
KD is amazing but he'd have less points per game and handle the ball less if he was in the Spurs' system.

So who knows how good Leonard could be if he was responsible as KD or George.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Do you really believe this? You believe top athletes are less athletic than their counterparts two decades earlier? You may argue that Jordan's competitors were closer in skill level to him than today's competitors are to Lebron, but comparing eras 20 years apart? No contest. The level of athleticism, size, and depth on today's NBA rosters is on another level. It's not a knock on Jordan. IT's just the nature of human advancement in sports.
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This data only goes to 2007, but size has been consistent since at least 1985. So empirically, they are not "on another level".

Arguments like athleticism and depth are far more subjective.

I'd counter that some of today's teams might have more depth, but that the league is more polarized in terms of good v. bad teams because of stacking which you didn't see in the 90s. So while there are a handful of really deep teams today there are also more shallow teams in comparison to those in the 90s.

As far as athleticism, that's pure opinion, and there's no way to judge it.
 
MetalFearSolid said:
Kevin Durant Believes Kawhi Leonard Is Product of Spurs System
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I think so too. But I don't think PG has proven that he'd put in as much effort as Kawhi did in the last 3 games of this series -- especially in defending LeBron. Maybe had he came up under Popovich, but he's mostly pretty passive as is.

I'm surprised KD said that though.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
This thread has been fantastic!
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You did this. *Care Bear Stare*
I don't see a point on bagging on Lebron, truth be told, and I'm not a Heat fan.

Cleveland couldn't get it done/were not willing to do what was necessary, so he bails (makes a big show of it, of course), goes to Heat to form a big team, and comes pretty damn close to a dynasty. I'm not going to hate on the guy for a 2-2 Finals record with the Heat. That's some sore loser shit
 
LeBron didn't play good enough to win because the team didn't win. When the team doesn't win, the main guy is first in line for the blame. That's LeBron. You can't skip around him.

He wasn't going to score 50 against the Spurs. Would have took unprecedented shooting efficiency because the Spurs D wasn't going to go for that. Every time LeBron got a groove, the Spurs crushed it immediately.

Of course LeBron "needed help." The Spurs played far better this series, to a man. Kawhi Leonard played stingy defense and made LeBron settle/pass out the post often. LeBron only "took over the game" one time all series, and that was when Diaw was guarding him. Pop made the adjustment.

The taste was slapped out of all the Heat mouths, because LeBron and his team weren't good enough together. It's a mark on them all.
 
BronsonLee said:
You did this. *Care Bear Stare*
I don't see a point on bagging on Lebron, truth be told, and I'm not a Heat fan.

Cleveland couldn't get it done/were not willing to do what was necessary, so he bails (makes a big show of it, of course), goes to Heat to form a big team, and comes pretty damn close to a dynasty. I'm not going to hate on the guy for a 2-2 Finals record with the Heat. That's some sore loser shit
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Pretty much. I bear no ill will toward Lebron.

That's 2 rings the Knicks didn't win, and I really want to see a Knicks championship before I die.

The Spurs just came with a more prepared team is all. They both deservedly belonged in the Finals.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
KD is amazing but he'd have less points per game and handle the ball less if he was in the Spurs' system.

So who knows how good Leonard could be if he was responsible as KD or George.
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KD in Pop's system would be insanely scary. So many open shots.


I think KD is partially right. I mean, Leonard can be a great player, and defensively he already is, but I don't know if he can do the things PG does. Offensively, I don't think he will ever be a guy you can have as a #1 option that carries a team. The system helps him a lot as well as playing next to 3 HOF offensive players.
 
Redd said:
Never liked how Shaq left the Magic. Had such a good squad there. Imo he should get way more hate than Lebron how he ducked out of Orlando.
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Shaq left because his Olympic teammates gave him shit for the Orlando Sentinel's poll on him. People here in Orlando didn't think Shaq was good enough to fire coach Brian Hill over, regardless of Shaq's dislike for him, and that Shaq wasn't worth $100+ million.

Also didn't help that Penny wanted to be the leader and make more money than Shaq.
 
Trey said:
LeBron didn't play good enough to win because the team didn't win. When the team doesn't win, the main guy is first in line for the blame. That's LeBron. You can't skip around him.

He wasn't going to score 50 against the Spurs. Would have took unprecedented shooting efficiency because the Spurs D wasn't going to go for that. Every time LeBron got a groove, the Spurs crushed it immediately.

Of course LeBron "needed help." The Spurs played far better this series, to a man. Kawhi Leonard played stingy defense and made LeBron settle/pass out the post often. LeBron only "took over the game" one time all series, and that was when Diaw was guarding him. Pop made the adjustment.

The taste was slapped out of all the Heat mouths, because LeBron and his team weren't good enough together. It's a mark on them all.
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Has LeBron ever taken the blame for these failures? When a team loses like this, usually the leader always says it's on him, even when it's not true. But not LeBron.

Seems like he's always letting the media shit all over his teammates.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Do you really believe this? You believe top athletes are less athletic than their counterparts two decades earlier? You may argue that Jordan's competitors were closer in skill level to him than today's competitors are to Lebron, but comparing eras 20 years apart? No contest. The level of athleticism, size, and depth on today's NBA rosters is on another level. It's not a knock on Jordan. IT's just the nature of human advancement in sports.
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I don't agree with this argument that athletes today are superior to past eras so therefore they're better players.

It's not really true or a fair evaluation of them.

For example, there are players in the league today and some in the Finals that played during Jordan's prime with the Bulls. Ray Allen and Tim Duncan were rookies or second year when Jordan was with the Bulls. Dirk, Nash, Kobe, Paul Pierce, KG were also younger when Jordan was dominating. And a couple of years ago, Jason Kid and Shaq as well.

So the eras aren't to far off from each other. Obviously experience is a factor but my point is that these much older players are still all stars and major contributors to their respective teams today. And they can still compete at a high level among the newer younger athletes today.

So IF they can play at a high level in today's league at their older age, imagine if they were still younger and how good they'd be? Yet Jordan was destroying these guys when they were young at 35-36 years old!

That's my refute against the argument that you can't compare eras. Well, I think my point makes it where it is comparable which is why Jordan's era with Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Olaujuwon, and even Magic and Bird would obliterate the players today!
 
BadAss2961 said:
Has LeBron ever taken the blame for these failures? When a team loses like this, usually the leader always says it's on him, even when it's not true. But not LeBron.

Seems like he's always letting the media shit all over his teammates.
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let's see what the internet has to say...

"I've been telling myself I need to do more," James said. "Is it too much to ask myself? I don't know. I don't know. I need to do more because what I'm doing isn't enough. You know, it's just what I put on myself."
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-to-do-more-because-what-im-doing-isnt-enough

that took a second to find. cmon now, people are just hating to hate at this point.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I
That's my refute against the argument that you can't compare eras. Well, I think my point makes it where it is comparable which is why Jordan's era with Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Olaujuwon, and even Magic and Bird would obliterate the players today!
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Yes, yes they would.

But they'd probably foul out every game. lol
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I don't agree with this argument that athletes today are superior to past eras so therefore they're better players.

It's not really true or a fair evaluation of them.

For example, there are players in the league today and some in the Finals that played during Jordan's prime with the Bulls. Ray Allen and Tim Duncan were rookies or second year when Jordan was with the Bulls. Dirk, Nash, Kobe, Paul Pierce, KG were also younger when Jordan was dominating. And a couple of years ago, Jason Kid and Shaq as well.

So the eras aren't to far off from each other. Obviously experience is a factor but my point is that these much older players are still all stars and major contributors to their respective teams today. And they can still compete at a high level among the newer younger athletes today.

So IF they can play at a high level in today's league at their older age, imagine if they were still younger and how good they'd be? Yet Jordan was destroying these guys when they were young at 35-36 years old!

That's my refute against the argument that you can't compare eras. Well, I think my point makes it where it is comparable which is why Jordan's era with Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Olaujuwon, and even Magic and Bird would obliterate the players today!
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It also wasn't that long ago when jordan was putting up 40 point games in his 40s. That was like the year before lebrn came to the league
 
BadAss2961 said:
Has LeBron ever taken the blame for these failures? When a team loses like this, usually the leader always says it's on him, even when it's not true. But not LeBron.

Seems like he's always letting the media shit all over his teammates.
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He always says he needs to play better?

Here though he put up 30/10 and his teammates were crappy and the spurs were godmodd. That's factual.
 
LeBron has "largest point differential in Finals history" - which translates into "had least amount of business competing against their respective opponent" - to hang around his neck. There's no absolution of this dubious record. Straight up infamy.

He's fun to watch, all timer still in his prime, generational talent. All true. But he's also the dude who got swept in one series, lost to another superstar who actually elevated a team of mid-level fringe/role players by himself, and now got blown out in record volume. LeBron has almost lost the Finals in every way possible.

Gotta take the good with the bad. LeBron is so good precisely because his talent raises the level of everyone around him. So his team losing is quite literally him losing.

Whether the meta discussion surrounding the man is fair or not doesn't factor into the aforementioned.
 
hucast21 said:
Anthony Mason and Oakley would've fouled out in the first quarter. Same goes for the Bad Boys Pistons.
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Damn right.

I still have my Chuck Daily & Co 1989 Championship t-shirt somewhere. I *loved* that team when I was little. Isiah, Joe and Microwave were my fuckin heroes.

Yep, they'd have to fore fit the games by halftime between people fouling out and Flagrant 2's.

:(((

Trey said:
LeBron has "largest point differential in Finals history" - which translates into "had least amount of business competing against their respective opponent" - to hang around his neck. There's no absolution of this dubious record. Straight up infamy.

He's fun to watch, all timer still in his prime, generational talent. All true. But he's also the dude who got swept in one series, lost to another superstar who actually elevated a team of mid-level fringe/role players by himself, and now got blown out in record volume. LeBron has almost lost the Finals in every way possible.

Gotta take the good with the bad. LeBron is so good precisely because his talent raises the level of everyone around him. So his team losing is quite literally him losing.

Whether the meta discussion surrounding the man is fair or not doesn't factor into the aforementioned.
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there is something to be said about being able to encourage your team to raise their game up to the next level. I'm not sure how much of that responsibility falls on the players vs the coaches, but yea...the Heat needed something and LeBron and his sensational play alone weren't enough. idk.
 
BadAss2961 said:
Has LeBron ever taken the blame for these failures? When a team loses like this, usually the leader always says it's on him, even when it's not true. But not LeBron.

Seems like he's always letting the media shit all over his teammates.
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lol, this guy

That's one of the best trolls I've seen for a while, you win today! /bow
 
Freedom = $1.05 said:
let's see what the internet has to say...



http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-to-do-more-because-what-im-doing-isnt-enough

that took a second to find. cmon now, people are just hating to hate at this point.
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I saw the postgame. That's not him taking blame for the loss, that's just him saying that maybe he could've played better. As a matter of fact, he actually said "i'm not disappointed in my teammates", as if he should've been. He let Wade take a beating in that conference as he was sitting right next to him.

Very often when a team suffers a devastating loss, their star player emphatically says "THIS IS ON ME." LeBron hasn't done that. He won't even say that he wants to return next season.
 
BadAss2961 said:
I saw the postgame. That's not him taking blame for the loss, that's just him saying that maybe he could've played better. As a matter of fact, he actually said "i'm not disappointed in my teammates", as if he should've been. He let Wade take a beating in that conference as he was sitting right next to him.

Very often when a team suffers a devastating loss, their star player emphatically says "THIS IS ON ME." LeBron hasn't done that. He won't even say that he wants to return next season.
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Smh
 
BadAss2961 said:
I saw the postgame. That's not him taking blame for the loss, that's just him saying that maybe he could've played better. As a matter of fact, he actually said "i'm not disappointed in my teammates", as if he should've been. He let Wade take a beating in that conference as he was sitting right next to him.

Very often when a team suffers a devastating loss, their star player emphatically says "THIS IS ON ME." LeBron hasn't done that. He won't even say that he wants to return next season.
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If he did, you would be in here, complaining on how all he said were empty phrases and that it doesn't mean anything and how he didn't yell at his teamates on the court.
Who gives a fuck?
Everything said in a postgame is utterly meaningless.
 
Siegcram said:
If he did, you would be in here, complaining on how all he said were empty phrases and that it doesn't mean anything and how he didn't yell at his teamates on the court.
Who gives a fuck?
Everything said in a postgame is utterly meaningless.
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It's called having your teammates back. Ease up on my teammates and put this one on me.

Miami fans are willing to bury their own guys like D.Wade while LeBron thinks about walking this summer.
 
BadAss2961 said:
It's called having your teammates back. Ease up on my teammates and put this one on me.

Miami fans are willing to bury their own guys like D.Wade while LeBron thinks about walking this summer.
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This is totally based on... Nothing.

Can't argue against a fantasy narrative.
 
BadAss2961 said:
Has LeBron ever taken the blame for these failures? When a team loses like this, usually the leader always says it's on him, even when it's not true. But not LeBron.

Seems like he's always letting the media shit all over his teammates.
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Are you serious? literally every game comes back to how lebron did. Then after they ran out of talk of that then they talk up the other teammates. The media talk for the Heat literally starts and ends at Lebron
 
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