ryutaro's mama
Member
As a Heat fan, were you cool with LeBron sitting for half the 4th, being consoled by Udonis Haslem?
You were good with that?
Lebron James' NBA Finals record is now 2-3, fails to 3-peat this year
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As a Heat fan, were you cool with LeBron sitting for half the 4th, being consoled by Udonis Haslem?
You were good with that?
BadAss2961
Member
But you do.
Am I ridiculous about LeBron sometimes? Yeah... But he's often hailed as the greatest of all time when things are going well. High scrutiny comes with that, but you guys don't want him to be held to the highest standard when he falls short. This beatdown the Spurs gave him was an embarrassment.
Yes. I care about reality. Statistical truths not appearances. How does bron out there help? Numbersfire had us at like 5% chance of victory then. We're not winning. Best result is he pads stats and we lost. Worst? He tears an acl.
ryutaro's mama
Member
LeBron is the team leader, man. He sets the tone. If our leader quits the games, why should we even bother trying anymore? Is he "teaching us a lesson" by sitting half the 4th?
I think you are being purposefully obtuse here. As the leader of the Heat (and the face of the league) it was a bad, bad look to be sitting in the 4th of an elimination game in the Finals.
Black Mamba
Member
BadAss2961
Member
It was like a 16 point lead with over 6 minutes to go. A longshot, but leads have disappeared in that kind of time before.
He quit, again.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm not being obtuse I'm saying that shit doesn't really matter beyond AM Radio and jock talking points. Your own example Kobe quit but did that mean his team couldn't take him seriously anymore? Did that stop him from leading two more teams to championships and winning Finals MVPs both years? In the grand scheme it doesn't matter. I think it's far more likely that his teammates don't give a fuck they know he's the best player on earth and they know he did his best why they gonna start questioning that because he sat out the last 6 minutes of a blowout loss? Do you really think that happens? Do you really think Udonis Haslem or Pat Riley are gonna come into camp next season looking at LeBron sideways or thinking to themselves "Man I don't know if this guy can get it done"? Or do you think that's just something that the average sports fan has been conditioned to care about because the 24 hour sports news cycle needs SOMETHING to talk about? And because analyzing stats and numbers is boring so we rely on shit like eye tests and body language and "intangibles" to decide the truth?
vas_a_morir
Banned
Is he the best player in his time? That's all you can really say.
As for 'greatness?' it's subjective. Babe Ruth was greater than Albert Pujols. But was he better? You can't say for sure, but most definitely he was not anywhere close.
Jordan vs. Lebron is an impossible comparison. They are different body-types and types of players. Lebron can do more than Jordan could, but Jordan did what he did better than anyone else. I think both are the best of their eras, playing in a team sport with different rules and players in each respective era. One's greatness need not detract from another's, IMO. Especially if they never even shared the court together.
Keep ya grind on, Lebron. And remember... one in Cleveland is worth 5 somewhere else.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Is Samsung offering the Miami Heat app or the LeBron app, I forget?
It matters because you don't want your brand, your leadership integrity muddied with whispers of, when shit gets rough, I quit.
Mamba, I know you remember this: 2008, the Finals, Game 6...Lakers got smashed by the Czzz, in Boston...guess who wasn't sitting on the bench for half the 4th, being consoled by Lamar Odom or whatever, even when the game had been decided?
Maybe you guys don't care...I thought it was a bad look. <shrugs>
DoktorEvil
Banned
In the grand scheme, all this arguing is futile, since Lebron is only 29 and is at the prime of his career.
Just thinking about his age is scary enough. He'll statistically be in the same conversations as Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain.
Whether he wins with the Heat or another big market, his legacy is not shaped yet.
He has more than plenty of basketball left in him and I'm failing to see what all of this arguing over the marquee NBA player has to do with talking heads and hyperbole.
Just thinking about his age is scary enough. He'll statistically be in the same conversations as Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain.
Whether he wins with the Heat or another big market, his legacy is not shaped yet.
He has more than plenty of basketball left in him and I'm failing to see what all of this arguing over the marquee NBA player has to do with talking heads and hyperbole.
See- here's the thing. I don't disagree that it might be a bad look and feed talk radio cycle.
But I also think that stuff is all noisey nonsense that has no bearing on actual results on the court.
BadAss2961
Member
Pretty much the slogan for LeBron's career.
LeBron is the best player in the league right now, no argument from me. As far as greatness, right now, he's maybe somewhere in the top 10. Maybe. A lot of great players have done great things in this league.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I agree.
True but as a Heat fan, I think you are sweeping it away because you have emotions tied to it. Let's switch it, say the Heat smashed the Thunder so bad in 2012 that they made Durant quit and sit half the 4th. Would you be so forgiving of those actions? Let's be real here.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I don't know how anyone born in this country can say that perception doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to someone's legacy.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Pretty much the slogan for LeBron's career.
LeBron is the best player in the league right now, no argument from me. As far as greatness, right now, he's maybe somewhere in the top 10. Maybe. A lot of great players have done great things in this league.
I think I agree. For his age, he may very well be top 2. For all time? He's already top 10, but what he does after this, really, will determine his ranking all time. I think he's got another 10 years in him, so we'll see.
Black Mamba
Member
You know who didn't notice? Me. Because I turned off the last 4 or 5 minutes because I wanted to go outside and puke. I didn't even know they gave Paul Pierce the MVP til the next day cuz I shielded myself from everything related to that loss/series that night.
I didn't give a fuck where Kobe was. Never heard his post-game presser and still haven't.
Whether he was out there or not mattered not to me. I don't care how things look, I care about victories and losses.
I honestly wouldnt care. Wouldnt change my view of such an accomplished player at all.
BadAss2961
Member
Yeah, i'm not trying to troll him. When he's done he might be top 5. I just don't think he could retire today and be top 10.
I'm not even gonna lie. I slept great last night.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Jordan arguably made those players great; something Kobe and Lebron have failed to do with their own cohorts.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Yup. And I doubt the players care. It's the media that does because it gives them something easy to talk about, heaven forbid they actually do some real analysis or offer some insight....nah let's talk about how a guy laughed on the bench while his team was losing because intangibles and leadership and heart and a bunch of other stuff that can't be quantified so people can't tell me I'm wrong.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I saw it years later. I was out the house and on a drive as soon as I saw Kobe lift the tape and the green confetti fell.
I haven't seen a single second of the Czzz celebration.
As far as looks go, Jordan is hailed to this day for dropping 63 in a playoff game that he lost in a series that he eventually lost. How you go out matters.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I was at a bar with a Celtics fan friend. He made me stay for everything. Fuck that game.
jordan0386
Member
Please tell me who MJ made great? Please.
Black Mamba
Member
That game went to overtime...
Don't care about a player sitting during a blowout.
"Ryutaro is a BAD fan. REAL fans would have watched the presser and REALLY STAYED WITH THEIR TEAM. How can other lakers fans support their team when guys like RYU take the EASY WAY OUT and head out when the going gets tough"
See how easy that is. And how meaningless and empty it is.
ryutaro's mama
Member
If I was driving, he would have had to hail a cab that night.
I would have been out the door, salty as fuck.
Not really.
Last I checked, my fandom isn't a role model to millions.
BadAss2961
Member
Not as bad as Miami fans though. Most of them quit 4 games into the finals.
And Lebron isn't leading with his actions in the final six minutes of a game. His team respects him or not, and playing 6 useless minutes isnt changing that.
Its all fundamentally useless noise man.
ryutaro's mama
Member
So on the biggest stage, with the world watching, millions seeing the biggest star quit is "useless noise"?
People will form their own opinion of what they saw I guess...
DoktorEvil
Banned
"wait til next year bro!"
jordan0386
Member
Throwing in the white flag isn't a noble thing now.
NBA GAF upsets me so much.
NBA GAF upsets me so much.
Well, it goes back to our initial discussion- we just see things differently. Like I said, it will probably feed into radio noise, and people like BadAss will place those actions into the narrative they have formed about him.
But it doesn't matter in the hard scheme of things, because I think that kind of intangible rah rah stuff is largely overblown. He's their leader, and the team is going to trust him whether or not he plays at the end. The game was over, thats just the bottom line.
Shit, Pop of all people is prob the coach in the NBA who throws in the towel soonest in the 4th quarter.
playing the final 6 minutes in a blowout loss is pointless.
He scores some extra points and people would just say "lol padding stats so ESPN can say he put up X points even though his team didn't come through for him!"
and yes, people actually said that in the other thread days before the game.
He scores some extra points and people would just say "lol padding stats so ESPN can say he put up X points even though his team didn't come through for him!"
and yes, people actually said that in the other thread days before the game.
In the grand scheme of things, the only thing this matters to is people who want to nitpick. He could have done alot of things, but he didn't. Sitting on the bench isn't quitting.
When the Piston walked off the floor after getting beat by the Bulls with time still left on the clock...that's quitting.
The only people who are going to remember Lebron not staying in are the legacy witch hunters. Dude has done too much good to be worrying about 6 minutes of a game where they couldn't win.
BadAss2961
Member
Why wouldn't we? It's not a good look. Can you admit that much?
captmcblack
Member
The leader of the team and the best player on Earth should sit out the last not 1, not 2, not 3 but 6 minutes of an elimination game in the league championship series down by less than 20 points and not even attempt to try coming back because people might accuse him of stat padding, or he might get hurt.
Yes.
Lebron is a fantastic player, still the best player on Earth, still showed up to the Finals, still will have chances to compete for titles, still is not done in his career, but he quit though. It's okay for him to be this generation's best player, and a player that left an elimination game early too. Even if he wouldn't have changed anything in the outcome of the game (though I'd have to believe the score would be closer figuring the best player on Earth is playing rather than Michael Beasley), it could've changed some perceptions.
But at least he didn't get to absorb all of the loss, right? It's not his fault!
Yes.
Lebron is a fantastic player, still the best player on Earth, still showed up to the Finals, still will have chances to compete for titles, still is not done in his career, but he quit though. It's okay for him to be this generation's best player, and a player that left an elimination game early too. Even if he wouldn't have changed anything in the outcome of the game (though I'd have to believe the score would be closer figuring the best player on Earth is playing rather than Michael Beasley), it could've changed some perceptions.
But at least he didn't get to absorb all of the loss, right? It's not his fault!
And this is precisely what Badass and the other jokesters in this thread would say had he stayed in.
Anyone with a resemblence of basketball understanding and a set of two eyes could see that the Spurs were winning this championship on their floor that night.
It was clear from the start, and abundantly so 6 minutes into the 4th.
James staying in would've changed zilch.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I would have to go back and look but I think it was a 16 point game when he bailed. I have seen stranger things happen, in these playoffs. Crazy comebacks. It was an improbable comeback for the Heat last night but not impossible.
You absolutely lose if your best player goes to the bench and remains there though.
I have admitted it. But i constantly push back against the appearance vs. reality factor in sports.
Its not a good look. But its also fundamentally meaningless and has no bearing on anything.
Its the same thing as this: Lebron gets in Wades face, screams at him in the fourth quarter. The team comes back, Lebron is leader, rah rah guy. The heat lose, and hes a bad teammate blaming his co-star, infighting etc.
Its largely meaningless man. It doesnt affect results. And its hard to take a step back and analyze these things rationally because ESPN has pervasively injected sports culture with this kind of crazed body language analytics that the athletes and coaches themselves would tell you largely is useless.
BadAss2961
Member
This is dumb... The guy missed a 3, lowered his head, walked to the bench and sobbed.
Making a game out of it with 6 minutes left was doable.
Went back and had to look it up to argue w/ yall crazy mofuks lol.
Numberfire had spurs win probability at the six minute mark in the 4th quarter at...
wait for it..
100 fucking percent.
It was futile.
captmcblack
Member
We watched Reggie Miller score 8 points on the Knicks with 9 seconds to steal playoff games.
A person who has a plausible potential argument to be the greatest player of all time could probably stand to actually play a couple more minutes of a more important game, I figure. Who knows? Maybe the game gets closer, a run starts, and a Ray Allen shot saves yet another game for the Heat, and the series is still going.
Futility arguments are why fans left thinking they lost last year and got locked out when they didn't. Only quitters quit early and rationalize it. It's okay to quit if you at least are at peace with owning that quitting.
He quit. Maybe it was fatigue, maybe Spoelstra/Riley/Arison/Goldman Sachs/Chinese investors/Nike told him not to come back, whatever. But the choice to not come back in a game of this kind of importance just isn't what you would think other players at that level would do (I'd like to believe no player of any level would want to give up in the championship game either, but who knows).
A person who has a plausible potential argument to be the greatest player of all time could probably stand to actually play a couple more minutes of a more important game, I figure. Who knows? Maybe the game gets closer, a run starts, and a Ray Allen shot saves yet another game for the Heat, and the series is still going.
Futility arguments are why fans left thinking they lost last year and got locked out when they didn't. Only quitters quit early and rationalize it. It's okay to quit if you at least are at peace with owning that quitting.
He quit. Maybe it was fatigue, maybe Spoelstra/Riley/Arison/Goldman Sachs/Chinese investors/Nike told him not to come back, whatever. But the choice to not come back in a game of this kind of importance just isn't what you would think other players at that level would do (I'd like to believe no player of any level would want to give up in the championship game either, but who knows).
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Spoelstra knows more about NBA basketball than both of us and if he pulls his best (and might as well only player) at this point of the game, that says that it wasn't doable.This is dumb... The guy missed a 3, lowered his head, walked to the bench and sobbed.
Making a game out of it with 6 minutes left was doable.
BadAss2961
Member
What were they down by? 16, 18 points? How can you possibly defend giving up that early?
Also, Spoelstra doesn't make that move unless LeBron wants him to. LeBron doesn't stay off the court unless he wants to.
ryutaro's mama
Member
So @ 6:00, you call a time out, grab your team mates and tell them, we are the fucking champs. We are NOT gonna whimper into the night. We are gonna fight. Win or lose, we are gonna battle. Let's go play HEAT basketball.
Nope, LeBron decided to go have a cry with UD on the bench and watch the last part of the game from the bench.
What happened to "Every game is a Game 7. We play till the end." LeBron said that shit pre-game, Game 1.
I don't know, we have a coach who knows AND hard fucking analytics to say they had no shot?
Also, I can't believe we've argued a half page about a total nonstory.
So he should've stayed in a game they were down 16 in a series where they were absolutely dominated in the whole time? Sounds like an excuse to keep harping on Lebron James.
It was impossible, simply based off how the series was progressing. You can't throw out the fact the Spurs were home, they dominated the Heat throughout, Lebron is ONE MAN playing a team game.
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