The Albatross
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117348503&postcount=128
shortened version of this: You shouldn't reward a guy in "Arbitrary Greatness Rating" for not playing. Yet, people do that with Bo Jackson.
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Overrated athletes
- Thread starter toweringinferno
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117348503&postcount=128
shortened version of this: You shouldn't reward a guy in "Arbitrary Greatness Rating" for not playing. Yet, people do that with Bo Jackson.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Da salt
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No, but it was an fucked up year where 11 games didn't get a playoff spot.
The correct answer is Michael Vick.
Early on everyone praised his scrambling abilities (as they do with all prospective mobile QBs), but he is a mediocre passer with bad completion percentages throughout his career.
I suppose that praise has cooled off significantly, but in the first few years of his career before the dog fighting scandal he was incredibly overrated.
Early on everyone praised his scrambling abilities (as they do with all prospective mobile QBs), but he is a mediocre passer with bad completion percentages throughout his career.
I suppose that praise has cooled off significantly, but in the first few years of his career before the dog fighting scandal he was incredibly overrated.
Isnt a great thing? Depends on the team. CP3 has made it to the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years and only missed one because his team was nothing when he went down to injury.
Post injury CP3 vs Parker is an interesting debate but pre-injury Parker vs CP3 wasn't even a discussion and I love Parker but CP3 was arguably a top 3-5 player before that injury.
Put a true PG like CP3, Parker or a healthy Rondo on a team like the Heat, Rockets or Thunder and the Thunder immediately become a near Finals lock every year and the Rockets start looking like an unstoppable force. The Heat were crushed in part because their point play was non-existent and they had to rely on James and Wade to carry that load the entire series. One of the reasons why Lowry is big on their offseason list right now.
However I do agree when it comes to building a championship squad that PG is a lower priority however not having a good one means that the rest of the team has to be able to make up for what a point guard does for your team. Most teams that don't have one can't.
John Felix Anthony Cena
just making sure
crazygambit
Member
Casillas was unquestionably the best goal keeper until about 2012. Hell, his save against the Netherlands in the 2010 final gave them the title.
Today he's terrible and EVERYONE knows it, so I don't see how he could be overrated.
figadapaura
Member
Apparently the managers who keep playing him don't. The only reason they do is on the back of how good he used to be.
toweringinferno
Member
Don't know if u class formula 1 drivers as athletes but I'll say Jenson Button is up there. Got lucky with an amazing car for the first half of his championship season
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
No Casillas always had been dodgy on set pieces and crosses.
His athleticism made up for a lot of that, and he was the best pure shot stopper in world, but he was never the complete keeper like Buffon or Kahn
You cite one baseball statistic and it's fucking batting average, come on. 112 career OPS+, All-Star caliber in '89 and '90, making the team the latter. Three years of 20+ bombs.
Patrick Roy.
Played on a strong defensive team but as soon as that team started to decline, he quit. So he gets traded to another strong defensive team, during an era when trap defense and low scoring was prevalent.
They changed goaltending equipment rules because he was one of the biggest offenders. Not just oversized equipment like that ridiculous trapper glove, but he would wear a jersey that was 8X too big for him and tied a string to his wrist and hip so that he created a big cape to catch the puck if he spread his arms. Yeah, sorry Batman, you can't do that. He was also a terrible puck handler, but he was so arrogant that he continued to do it and screw up.
I absolutely cringe everytime somebody foolishly thinks that Patrick Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time.
Played on a strong defensive team but as soon as that team started to decline, he quit. So he gets traded to another strong defensive team, during an era when trap defense and low scoring was prevalent.
They changed goaltending equipment rules because he was one of the biggest offenders. Not just oversized equipment like that ridiculous trapper glove, but he would wear a jersey that was 8X too big for him and tied a string to his wrist and hip so that he created a big cape to catch the puck if he spread his arms. Yeah, sorry Batman, you can't do that. He was also a terrible puck handler, but he was so arrogant that he continued to do it and screw up.
I absolutely cringe everytime somebody foolishly thinks that Patrick Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time.
A Serious Man
Member
He hasn't won since spygate. That's pretty telling.
They're definitely athletes and there's another guy in the thread who agrees. Button shines in changing conditions and... I think that's it. He's bottom tier out of all the champs currently on the grid.
ViperVisor
Member
QB's RELATIVE statistics rank AGAINST THE AVERAGE in terms of (1) Passer Rating (2) Completion Percentage & (3) Yards Per Attempt:
PASSER RATING:
Young: +16.788
Montana: +14.316
Marino: +6.388
Elway: -0.007
COMPLETION PERCENTAGE:
Young: +6.200%
Montana: +6.068%
Marino: +0.014%
Elway: +0.012%
YARDS PER ATTEMPT:
Steve Young: +0.881
Montana: +0.370
Marino: +0.214
Elway: -0.031
TheCowboyPoet
Member
Patrick "20 Cent" Kane. AINEC.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Gerrard is still a great player with obvious weaknesses, prone to mistakes and used poorly by Hodgson, and he's been a fantastic player for 15 years. I say that as someone who's watched nearly every game he's played in since 2006.
OP is shit.
OP is shit.
toweringinferno
Member
Lool he isn't suited to playing DM and his passing hasn't been great this world cup. I expect you to defend him as a Liverpool fan
johnny_park
Member
Now do this for before and after Dan Reeves. Reeves was a shit coach who focused on running the ball which wouldn't be a problem if they actually had a running game. As soon as Denver decided to build the offense around Elway look how his numbers changed for the better.
Elway is not overrated.
The_Hitcher89
Member
We've said all along that
1) He's more of a quarterback than a DM at Liverpool
2) He needs 2 other midfielders protecting him
Hodgson has no understanding of his weaknesses, and leaving him exposed in a midfield 2 was always going to end badly, although nobody could have predicted that he'd contribute so heavily to 2 goals like that.
There's no denying that he's had a very poor World Cup, but he was great last season and gave us the control that gave the frontline their platform to attack at will.
Context is key when It comes to Elway. In football especially, statistics can be very misleading. Especially when comparing eras. He played with a horrendous offensive supporting cast for most of his career and a coach that didn't know how to run an offense and hated Elway. Despite that he took his team to a number of superbowls and once he got the supporting cast he needed, he won back to back superbowls. Give Elway Bill Walsh, Jerry Rice, Dwight Clark, Roger Craig and that offensive line and it is a different conversation altogether.
QB's can't block for themselves, run routes, coach the team or catch the balls you throw.
Is he overrated? I don't think so but maybe considering guys like Marino are so underrated but certainly not the most overrated. Especially when QB's like Favre are being considered GOAT because he padded his stats at the end of his career and was a notorious choke artist.
Eh. You can put probably put any great player (including non-pure PGs) on any of those teams and they become much stronger. That is sort of the nature of the NBA so not really tied to whether a player is overrated or not. I'm not debating that CP3 isn't a great player...he just doesn't deserve all the credit he gets (playoff record? and they would have lost to the warriors this year if Bogut was playing).
ViperVisor
Member
That is the avg QB from his era, 83-98. For Montana it is avg from 79-94.
His good but far from great career got a deceiving whitewash of paint at the end on the back of Terrell Davis and Mike Shanahan.
In 1998 Bubby Brister got 4 starts and put up 986 yards 10 TDs 3 INTs
Brian Griese was 9th best in passer rating of guys with 1000+ attempts during his Denver career.
Jake Plummer was a good QB.
Jay Cutler stepped right in and played very good.
biggersmaller
Banned
Brett Favre. Maybe because I'm from MN and had to hear the trash talk since '96, then the the unbridled praise until he choked with the Vikings against New Orleans in 2010. I was even 10 rows up from the last minute Greg Lewis pass against San Fransisco and I still don't get it.
If Green Bay didn't have Rogers to see what a QB is suppose to look like, I KNOW not just Packer fans - but the NFL fans in general would still be singing the old man's praises.
If Green Bay didn't have Rogers to see what a QB is suppose to look like, I KNOW not just Packer fans - but the NFL fans in general would still be singing the old man's praises.
Rodgers wasn't what a QB was supposed to look like when Favre began playing.
You completely ignored I and others point about understanding the context of stats. For instance you realize brister started against all but one team with a bad losing record?
If you can't understand why those 3 are not int he same discussion as Elway you truly don't watch enough football. Griese and Plummer were mental midgets and Plummer especially succeeded solely on gimmicks and a very simplified playbook. After a couple seasons he was exposed easily and fell apart. Cutler had the makings of a being a great QB for Denver but Josh McDaniels fucked that up and he was sent to Chicago where QB's go to die.
The guy took a mis-coached team with a mediocre offensive line, poor running game, poor receivers and a just above average defense to the Super Bowl in 3 out of 4 years.
His game was rarely pretty but he was the very definition of clutch. There is a reason some of the biggest fourth quarter comebacks in history were led by this guy. He could throw 2 interceptions and fumble the ball but give him the ball and tell him to make up for his mistakes an get the win and the guy would more often then not put on one of the most clutch and beautiful performances you could see and win the game through the air and with his legs.
When the guy got a great offensive line, a set of offensive weapons and a good coach he won back to back superbowls.
What is this shit? .312/.380/.444 is merely above average for a SS? Top 10 rWAR for a SS and a HoF career qualify as merely above average?
Maybe I overstated it but people talk about him as the greatest of all time at SS. That is bullshit and a lot of his stats are the product of hitting in a line-up surrounded by great hitters. He just got more and better pitches to hit.
VanquishUK
Member
Yeah it's just plain embarrassing.
I think it's the reverse
he's not
I think it's hilarious that there are people who actually believe this. If you know anything about football, you know this is simply false.
entremet
Member
One of the wackiest threads ever.
theignoramus
Member
Dude, Steve Javie and other NBA officials of the time were refusing to give AI calls because they didnt like "his attitude". They basically froze him out at one point and only called the most egregious fouls on him.
The Horror the horror
Banned
Vastly overrated.
All the hype about him being the heir apparent to LT, then after his first 3 seasons he was on the verge of being called a bust until they moved him away from the toughest side of the defensive line to arguably the easiest (opposite the left offensive tackle). After that, he blew up, and stole the sack record thanks to another overrated player, Brett Favre. Doesn't hurt that the defensive line was stacked during both his championship runs.
terrisus
Member
terrisus
Member
Yeah, I can agree with that.
I can take issue with him sticking at Shortstop as long as he did, to the detriment of his team, but, other than how negatively it impacted his defensive stats, that's on the Yankees, not him.
But, yes, that's why he gets brought up in any "Over-rated player" discussion.
You could make the same arguement for Martin Brodeur, considering the strong defensive teams that played in front of him.
elrechazado
Banned
Nobody says he's the goat except people who hate him setting up stew men. Like you.
Explain.
flintstryker
Banned
David Beckham is my pick, the guy was a respectable player but hearing people talk about him like he was this unmatched legend just feels weird t me.
Amen. Bo Jackson was a living nightmare if you had to face him. Potentially the best football and baseball player at the same time if he had reached his peak.
Vastly overrated.
All the hype about him being the heir apparent to LT, then after his first 3 seasons he was on the verge of being called a bust until they moved him away from the toughest side of the defensive line to arguably the easiest (opposite the left offensive tackle). After that, he blew up, and stole the sack record thanks to another overrated player, Brett Favre. Doesn't hurt that the defensive line was stacked during both his championship runs.
They moved him from the right side to the left side where he was double teamed by TEs and RTs. The Giants defensive line was actually pretty poor for most of his career, unless you consider guys like one-eyed Cedric Jones or Keith Washington to be world beaters. As far as the sack record goes? Strahan was tearing up offenses so badly that officials were letting tackles hold Strahan. If holding had actually been called against teams, Strahan would've had close to 40 sacks.
Though he only had one championship run, not two. Point in your favor.
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