Divinity: Original Sin Beta - Christopher lives to see another day..

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RtwP lacks a proper movement system. Why bother moving ANYWHERE when the enemy can just wail on you while you walk away?
I have no idea what you are saying even here :/

You move in games like IWD in order to improve your strategic position. Make space for enemies to be hit with AoE, minimize surface area on your characters against crowds, close up small passages with melee fighters in order to protect your mages. That kind of stuff.
 
I have no idea what you are saying even here :/

You move in games like IWD in order to improve your strategic position. Make space for enemies to be hit with AoE, minimize surface area on your characters against crowds, close up small passages with melee fighters in order to protect your mages. That kind of stuff.

That's mere micro managing your casters / rangers (which should never engage close fight to begin with, so you won't need to address this often), but I can't see how I can move away from an active engage with an enemy to get space between me and him for my melee fighter (unless he moves vastly slower). It needs to be asynchronous, otherwise he can just tag along making it useless. Games like Jagged Alliance, X-Com, or even T-RPGs. Like I said earlier in RTwP positioning only palys a role before the actual fight begins. e.g. move to a small passage. Keep your casters distanced from your fighters etc. After that point, movement plays almost no role. RTwP just takes away depth for the sake of an (artificial) faster pacing. Now don't get me wrong, TB isn't safe from critiscim. There are good implementations and bad ones. And more often than not, you don't have any movement options at all. Even then, if it's a balanced system, it requires more careful tinkering with your strategy. Some battles even become a puzzle and require good thinking (like in M&M), where as in RTwP most of the time, it becomes a "waiting game" since you just auto attack him to death with an occasional spell / skill. 'Timing', which is crucial in TB games, is less of an factor, and more forgiving in RTwP games.

Then again, different strokes for different folks. I like the active approach ala Gothic and Witcher and I like the TB approach. RTwP is mostly boring to me. I played so many games and in all of them the combat was the biggest issue with the game. Add in the typical D&D dice system and you officially have me bored beyond death.
 
RTwP is almost always too hectic for me. Maybe if you took a more Growlanser-esque approach that still paused for actions and stuff, or rebalanced it so there'd be fewer but heavier (relatively anyway) attacks so the pacing is the same but you can better follow what goes on rather than lots and lots of walloping with numbers flying all over.
 
Zukuu, I simply seem to play RTwP games very differently from you. I absolutely do use positioning to my advantage throughout battles not just (but obviously crucially also) at the start. I really need to make sure to have Shadowplay running the next time I play a good game with RTwP.

RTwP is almost always too hectic for me.
RTwP is never hectic. That's what the "P" part is for.

Turn based or bust. Anything else is a lame attempt to court a wider audience.
I could just as easily claim that turn based is dumbing it down for people who can't handle all turns occurring at the same time -- or developers who don't have the chops to implement it well.
 
RTwP is never hectic. That's what the "P" part is for.
You're not really meant to pause all the time or anything though to process everything though, else the point is kind of defeated.

But maybe this is just a hang up of mine and I generally do fine so long as I focus more on "am I making the bars move the way I want the bars to move?" basically, I guess it just feels too detached for my ideal preferences.
 
Zukuu, I simply seem to play RTwP games very differently from you. I absolutely do use positioning to my advantage throughout battles not just (but obviously crucially also) at the start. I really need to make sure to have Shadowplay running the next time I play a good game with RTwP.

RTwP is never hectic. That's what the "P" part is for.

I could just as easily claim that turn based is dumbing it down for people who can't handle all turns occurring at the same time -- or developers who don't have the chops to implement it well.

The only time it's been implemented well has been when it came with highly configurable party AI (FFXII/DA), or pretty simplistic combat (DSII). I like focusing on tactics, not babysitting my characters in order to stop them doing stupid shit because I pressed the space bar 2 seconds too late. (I'm lookin at you, Infinity Engine games).

And RTwP is always hectic when the delay between rounds is small. Missing a pause by a second or two usually means you just missed a round to give orders to someone.
 
Couldn't you say the exact same thing about you and Witcher 3? We don't really know anything about that except lofty aspirations, it could still be a shallow Skyrim-like.

At least we can agree on that.

You could say the same thing certainly. However we have far more to judge Witcher 3 off of than PoE. One of the e3 demos was 18 minutes long. For PoE we've seen some screenshots and a couple dev diaries. I can only draw hypothesis based off of observable evidence. I have very little of that for PoE. I have some serious love for Chris Avellone, perhaps more than I should. However, I'm really cheering for CDPR, they seem like a great bunch and they are putting out good games.

that would be very disappointing, witcher devs have made fun of skyrim a few times though, and I think they hate it as much as I do, so at least they will try to make it much better, which would be what they have done before just one a huge scale. I dont have any reason to distrust CPR yet.

This is absolutely not true. In fact, in at least 2 of their 2014 E3 interviews they mention Skyrim and how much they love it. I would expect a few similarities between them. 22 Million sold is not to be ignored.
 
How does it sacrifice precision of movement? In fact, most (inferior) turn-based systems restrict themselves to squares or hexes (luckily not Divinity), and those clearly do restrict both precision and choice.

Units in RTwP have less precise methods of movement because, first, they move without restrictions in a 2D plane (but are still subject to pathing around that terrain) and second, the amount that these units can move in, say, ten seconds is difficult to define. Because there is no method to determine a unit's exact movement range with respect to the terrain in a given time, it is impossible for RTwP movement to be as precise as turn-based movement. This is because turn-based movement is always restricted to some measured form (e.g. a unit with 5 tile movement range will be able to move exactly that much in a turn, barring status effects) and this makes it inherently more defined and strategic than the less-defined, real-time movement.

This same logic can be applied to line of sight and ability/attack range between the two systems.

While there are less direct movements a single unit can make in a turn-based system, there is the possibility of much finer control over the movements available - which, in turn, allows for far more intricate strategies to be pulled off. It is essentially a sacrifice of some individual unit freedoms for greater control and coordination over your entire command of units.

I'd argue that any luck-based system is inherently nonstrategic. Is Go luck-based? Chess? Starcraft?
Statistical chance is at best an abstraction you use if you have no other choice.

Let's take a step back and remember you're championing a real-time implementation of the D20 system - an entirely dice-rolled game.

But, anyways, these systems aren't luck-based so much as they are a test of the player's strategy. There are many ways to mitigate the RNG, and the constant threat of failure demands that a player always have a back-up plan or failsafe

For example, I've lost a game of Fire Emblem because an enemy managed to roll within his 3% chance to critically hit, instantly killing my commander - but that mistake was mine. I should not have put such a critical unit in a situation where that could happen - it was a tactical error on my part.

XCOM is built entirely upon imminent failure (aka random chance). Especially early on, your units will miss often and die constantly. The game itself is entirely about mitigating and minimizing any potential for disaster; you as a commander must have a back-up plan for your back-up plan as well as a worst-case scenario escape plan at all times, or else your RNG-failures are your own. Success is won through shrewd, tactical risks and sacrifices, and lost through ill-planned rolls of the dice.

Lastly, I would say that statistical chance is a necessary aspect of any level-based RPG. It is an abstraction necessary to maintain the illusion of power between units of differing levels. While it can be frustrating, it is the best way to represent the unpredictable nature of existence while at the same time respecting the fact that it is a game.
 
Is this game fun solo?
I looked up youtube vids, and it looks great playing coop. With the dialogue system and all....but it it as fun playing by yourself?
 
Why are we shitting up this thread with Witcher 3 stuff? Witcher 3 is not a party based tactical rpg and is nothing like Divinity Original Sin. If you think it's going to be the second coming wonderful but we have an actual, PC exclusive, high quality, party based tactical rpg coming out in a few days.

And ffs guys RTwP and turn based are both awesome get over it. The real stinker in rpgs is MASH A FOR AWESOME LIKE SKYRIM LOLOL.

Is this game fun solo?
I looked up youtube vids, and it looks great playing coop. With the dialogue system and all....but it it as fun playing by yourself?

Absolutely; I only play solo. You can set the personality type of one of your main characters too. Make them nice or cynical or whatever.
 
Is this game fun solo?
I looked up youtube vids, and it looks great playing coop. With the dialogue system and all....but it it as fun playing by yourself?

I haven't tried coop, so I can't compare both modes, but solo is pretty good. You can either ignore the conversations between your two main PC, role-play both or give a personality to one of them, so they can auto-select their response in conversations. The personalities aren't in the game yet, just a random personality that picks, well... random, but for release we should have some more.
 
Why are we shitting up this thread with Witcher 3 stuff? Witcher 3 is not a party based tactical rpg and is nothing like Divinity Original Sin. If you think it's going to be the second coming wonderful but we have an actual, PC exclusive, high quality, party based tactical rpg coming out in a few days.

And ffs guys RTwP is awesome get over it.

What game is that?

Anyways, I'm looking forward to Divinity: Original Sin's release in a week and a half.

BASED TURNS!

Absolutely; I only play solo. You can set the personality type of one of your main characters too. Make them nice or cynical or whatever.

Please elaborate! I had no idea about that, but it sounds awesome.

Does it decide their text dialog? 'Cause that would add a lot of replayability.
 
What game is that?

Anyways, I'm looking forward to Divinity: Original Sin's release in a week and a half.

BASED TURNS!



Please elaborate! I had no idea about that, but it sounds awesome.

Does it decide their text dialog? 'Cause that would add a lot of replayability.

The game I was referring to was Divinity of course!

And yes, the text dialogue is decided by the personality type you choose. It is not implemented but I am almost certain that I read it will be ready for release.
 
You're not really meant to pause all the time or anything though to process everything though, else the point is kind of defeated.
The whole point is that you can freely adjust your time slices depending on the circumstances at any given point. That's one of the many huge advantages of RTwP systems.

Let's take a step back and remember you're championing a real-time implementation of the D20 system
No. The D20 systems are an imperfect implementation of a superior concept.

They are held back by the same thing keeping people enamored with turn based systems: PnP RPG tradition, which was constrained by having a puny human instead of a computer managing everything.
 
The game I was referring to was Divinity of course!

And yes, the text dialogue is decided by the personality type you choose. It is not implemented but I am almost certain that I read it will be ready for release.

That's not a few days... :/



I was really hoping that the personality thing worked like that. Fantastic.
 
And ffs guys RTwP and turn based are both awesome get over it. The real stinker in rpgs is MASH A FOR AWESOME LIKE SKYRIM LOLOL.

I totally agree with this, there are plenty of games that utilise turn based and RTwP excellently. However if you want to make an action RPG then your combat should be as good as that in an action game and it never is.
 
I came in this thread to learn more about Divinity and 95% of this page is just bad mouthing classic CRPGs. If this is the community I don't know why you'd want to play coop.

I guess I'll wait till release to learn more. Hopefully by then this thread will actually be about the merits of the game.
 
This game is potentially my worst Steam Sale purchase of all time simply because of the price. I liked what I saw in some gameplay videos and have read plenty of positive impressions as well. Excited to play, but now it's a matter of going in fresh on the 30th or taking it for a spin now (I'm aware of the save wipes).

Also picked up Divine Divinity and Divinity 2 since those were super cheap.
 
I came in this thread to learn more about Divinity and 95% of this page is just bad mouthing classic CRPGs. If this is the community I don't know why you'd want to play coop.

I guess I'll wait till release to learn more. Hopefully by then this thread will actually be about the merits of the game.

The game actually has a global, online chat, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find someone to co-op with.

Progress is saved on the host's game (the co-op person plays your second character) so that may make things difficult if you don't have a dedicated co-op partner, however.

Remember, co-op dialog is awesome.

This game is potentially my worst Steam Sale purchase of all time simply because of the price. I liked what I saw in some gameplay videos and have read plenty of positive impressions as well. Excited to play, but now it's a matter of going in fresh on the 30th or taking it for a spin now (I'm aware of the save wipes).

Also picked up Divine Divinity and Divinity 2 since those were super cheap.

Divinity 2 is really weird and wonderful.
 
I came in this thread to learn more about Divinity and 95% of this page is just bad mouthing classic CRPGs. If this is the community I don't know why you'd want to play coop.

I guess I'll wait till release to learn more. Hopefully by then this thread will actually be about the merits of the game.

Man you decided the wrong day to read this thread, every other page is about this game and how we're sad that it doesn't get enough attention in the mainstream media or GAF, but somehow it went to RTwP vs Turn Based RPGs even when that discussion has no place in this thread because Larian decided to make this game TB since the beggining. :P
 
Man you decided the wrong day to read this thread, every other page is about this game and how we're sad that it doesn't get enough attention in the mainstream media or GAF, but somehow it went to RTwP vs Turn Based RPGs even when that discussion has no place in this thread because Larian decided to make this game TB since the beggining. :P
Based Larian has great taste.

There is just not much to talk about that hasn't been said already. We're all just eagerly awaiting the release in ~9 days. It will be glorious. <3
 
So bought the game. Actually, I didnt want to get it before release but i couldnt resist :(

edit: the amount of my steamfriends that have D:OS on their wishlist has doubled since yesterday. Nice to see.
 
I like all of the combat types, real time, round based, real time with paused. but it needs to be done right, all of these have good and terrible examples.

but hey, the party RPG I had the most fun combat with was dragon age origins, so I'm probably not representative for this thread anyway.

This is absolutely not true. In fact, in at least 2 of their 2014 E3 interviews they mention Skyrim and how much they love it. I would expect a few similarities between them. 22 Million sold is not to be ignored.
I wouldnt say its absolutely not true, I remember many articles like this from the time witcher 3 was announced.
http://www.ggsgamer.com/2013/02/18/cdpr-wants-to-avoid-skyrims-generic-flavors-with-the-witcher-3/

which isnt surprising, because witcher 1 and 2 are pretty much as different as possible as it can be witthin the same genre, compared to skyrim
but yeah, it does make sense now, before release, to try to lure the 22mio skyrim crowd in, it certainly makes sense, I'm pretty sure skyrim fans wont dislike a simply superior game
 
I like all of the combat types, real time, round based, real time with paused. but it needs to be done right, all of these have good and terrible examples.

but hey, the party RPG I had the most fun combat with was dragon age origins, so I'm probably not representative for this thread anyway.

I prefer turn-based (shocking, I know!) but I don't mind the others.

Fortunately for .Dragon Age: Origins, the Mabari War Hound was in it, so I can't ever hate that game.

What a great idea that companion was.

[Morrigan does not approve.]
 
The only RtwP I've ever liked was FF 12 International version. Adding a fast forward features to deal with mobs you know you will win made it so much better. I did enjoy managing the A.I.'s of my companions, letting them know at what % to heal and other sorts.
 
I really wouldn't call FF12 a RTwP system, at least for the purpose of this discussion. I think we're all talking about games with (the potential for) full control over each party member's position and actions here. (The AI control options were very neat though)

Anyway, if I ever have a lot of time on my hands (and no motivation to program, which is rare) I'll make a thread where I explain to all of you scientifically why RTwP with free movement (and no underlying turn concept) is the most superior system for party-based CRPGs. With illustrations and stuff. It will be great :P
 
Anyway, if I ever have a lot of time on my hands (and no motivation to program, which is rare) I'll make a thread where I explain to all of you scientifically why RTwP with free movement (and no underlying turn concept) is the most superior system for party-based CRPGs. With illustrations and stuff. It will be great :P

Bring it on! #TeamTB
 
You won't even know what hit you.

Anyway, let's focus on Divinity now. TB with free movement is pretty damn rare (and awesome) as well after all.
 
So how does the co-op works in this game, do we have a lobby system for matchmaking of some sort?

(I wasn't following the development closely, their feature page didn't make it very obvious)
 
The coop is really structured around the concept of two people playing through the entire game together, so it's not really that well suited to drop-in/drop-out or matchmaking. Think of it more like BG/IWD coop (except a lot better integrated in all the game systems). There is a global chat option though, so that's a bit like a lobby.
 
How does arguing about quests work alone? Stats of the characters? RP it out yourself?

RP it out yourself and play RPS against the computer. The personality system should make the game select the answer for your companion, but right now it only has Random personality.
 
RP it out yourself and play RPS against the computer. The personality system should make the game select the answer for your companion, but right now it only has Random personality.

Last time I read about it there was talk about a computer AI that discusses with you based on the stats, affinity and relationship of your partner - but I wasn't sure if it was implemented. Seems not yet - will it be in the final game?
 
I'm planning on putting some short impressions of the game in the OT. If you want to be included, post one here or just PM me your impressions. :)

Also, just a reminder, you can also submit some screenshots of your own for the OT as well.
 
I'm planning on putting some short impressions of the game in the OT. If you want to be included, post one here or just PM me your impressions. :)

Also, just a reminder, you can also submit some screenshots of your own for the OT as well.

Maybe the last Twitch stream is something for the OT? Best source right now to show the strong Editor for this game http://www.twitch.tv/larianstudios/b/539683895 I think it could interest some people that there will alot of community content in the future :D

edit:only problem is that the video has some spoilers because they show more than the editor.
 
Maybe the last Twitch stream is something for the OT? Best source right now to show the strong Editor for this game http://www.twitch.tv/larianstudios/b/539683895 I think it could interest some people that there will alot of community content in the future :D

edit:only problem is that the video has some spoilers because they show more than the editor.

If I have time, I will make a quick video consisting of the editing portion. The ones that I have now are hilariously out of date.
 
Man you decided the wrong day to read this thread, every other page is about this game and how we're sad that it doesn't get enough attention in the mainstream media or GAF, but somehow it went to RTwP vs Turn Based RPGs even when that discussion has no place in this thread because Larian decided to make this game TB since the beggining. :P
Just echoing Adnor's statements here, usually all we talk about in the thread is how awesome every new patch is and how the release date still feels so far away. If you are interested in the game, pick it up, the community aspect here on GAF will be just fine.
 
The coop is really structured around the concept of two people playing through the entire game together, so it's not really that well suited to drop-in/drop-out or matchmaking. Think of it more like BG/IWD coop (except a lot better integrated in all the game systems). There is a global chat option though, so that's a bit like a lobby.
It'd be nice if we could limit that to Steam groups or whatever, might be fun if we could make it just whoever else is in the GAF group playing the game.
 
Anyway, if I ever have a lot of time on my hands (and no motivation to program, which is rare) I'll make a thread where I explain to all of you scientifically why RTwP with free movement (and no underlying turn concept) is the most superior system for party-based CRPGs. With illustrations and stuff. It will be great :P
You can't, first because you're wrong and even in the best case scenario is "a good alternative to turn based", not vastly superior.
Second, because phase-based like Frozen Synapse is the actual "most superior" system.
 
So I am curious to try this game but before I do tell me, is it anything like the original Dragon's Age? I loved the first one, hated the second one. Is it more like Neverwinter Nights: Mask of the Betrayer or anything similar?
 
So I am curious to try this game but before I do tell me, is it anything like the original Dragon's Age?
Nope.
I won't even claim that is vastly better
even if it obviously is
, it's just very, very different.
As pointed many times in the past, far closer to old school stuff like Ultima VII (excpet this time with decent combat).
 
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