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[kiaaa]

so you've made a gross oversimplification based on promotional images yes?

Well, he's not wrong.

 

[Kyari]

My memory on this is hazy on this because I haven't played it in years but aren't the police officer segments of Heavy Rain somewhat puzzle based (investigating crime scenes, using that futuristic tool to create an office anywhere)..

Questioning NPCs with different dialogue options for information wasn't uncommon in 90s adventure games.. (flashback to gabriel knight, etc)

I think the difference is, with Heavy Rain at least, that none of that actually mattered and the game will basically always eventually end regardless of what you do.

 

[Shion]

I allays noticed the same thing, they pretty much reinvented the adventure game without getting any credit,

Please, explain this to me.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think the difference is, with Heavy Rain at least, that none of that actually mattered and the game will basically always eventually end regardless of what you do.

There are multiple endings in Heavy Rain and those scenes do impact what ending you get. Example:

Spoiler

It's possible for him to die in one of those scenes

 

[fvng]

Well, he's not wrong.

It's a crude and misleading description of the game.

???

What on earth are you talking about? I was replying to this person's post claiming there were no unintentional laughs in Beyond.



That's why I posted the picture. Nobody was even talking about aesthetics.

"this person" you're referring to is me, and I was discussing aesthetics and unintentional laughs.

You were replying to my post, and I figured you were talking about my point about aesthetics but you're speaking of unintentional laughs. Are we on the same page now?

Despite that scene, there are few unintentional laughs in Beyond. I mean unless you're a 12 year old that finds everything funny, then there isn't much to laugh at during the course of the story.

I think the difference is, with Heavy Rain at least, that none of that actually mattered and the game will basically always eventually end regardless of what you do.

You couldn't get past that investigation scene until you were done with what had to be done there, and yes it required investigation, etc.

 

[driver116]

It's because Cage is a really bad writer. When you have no gameplay, you must at least have a good story/characters.

LucasArts games are well written, that's why they're worshipped, even if there's no "real" gameplay.

(Edited)

Heavy Rain was very well written, and enjoyable.

 

[Iksenpets]

Cage's problem isn't the gameplay. I liked the actual experience if playing Heavy Rain, even if it was all just button prompts. His promlem is that his writing and characters are charmless at best and incoherent at worst.

 

[LeBart]

The first two thirds of Fahrenheit were actually really good story-wise. Then...I don't know what happened after that. Maybe whoever wrote it discovered acid.

Or The Matrix.

 

[TheHollowNight]

oh right this totally proves Beyond had subpar aesthetics.

Umm, this image was referring to the unintentional laughs in the game...because well, look at it. Nothing to do with the aesthetics.

Edit:Nvm, it's already been cleared up.

 

[Mononoke]

I can agree Cage isn't a fantastic writer. I disagree that he's an overall bad writer though. He creates interesting situations, and is pretty good at setting up overall worlds and characters. His plot just gets too convoluted. The guy needs to work with more people that know how to properly edit so his work can be cleaned up.

But I mean, the homeless act in Beyond was pretty amazing. Hell, even the hokey Indian Act was pretty awesome visually (weird plot wise, but still a cool idea in its own way). I dunno the latter isn't the best to defend (as it's pretty ridiculous plot wise, especially in the overall narrative). ANYWAYS, I agree with those that say, if your game isn't going to have much traditional gameplay, then the STORY and experience better be damn good.

And honestly, for me, I do walk away from Cage's games feeling pretty damn good. There is a lot of flaws for sure. A lot of terrible writing and missed opportunities. But I always walk away feeling like the overall experience was interesting. I guess I'm the kind of person that can look at something overall and while not forgive the bad, I guess not have it consume my overall feelings of the experience.

 

[Freeman]

And those games are also heavily criticized for not being adventure games anymore.

Would a CYOA motion comic be an adventure game?

If they were like The Walking Dead and QD games yes.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Beyond was one of my favorite games of the generation. Was it perfect? No. But I had a really good time experiencing it.

 

[espher]

I liked the old LucasArts and Sierra adventure games, but I didn't like Dragon's Lair. Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy fit somewhere in the middle.

 

[ultratruman]

I find it hard to believe that people found the puzzles in Grim Fandango et al to be compelling enough to stand on their own. The writing and intriguing world was why I enjoyed those games, the puzzles were a (often maligned) vehicle for that in the same way as QTEs are now.

 

[Kyari]

There are multiple endings in Heavy Rain and those scenes do impact what ending you get. Example:

Spoiler

It's possible for him to die in one of those scenes

I understand that, yes, but all the same you can essentially play the entire game without engaging in any meaningful gameplay.

 

[p2535748]

I would say that these distinctions are what defines "good" and "bad" QTEs, though. I think you agree with my basic premise, however, in that a mechanic should be judged by what it is, not what it should be. Meaning it's not necessarily fair to call a game bad because it uses QTEs where you'd prefer straight up action. It'd be more accurate to say you don't prefer that choice, but the quality of the mechanic shouldn't be compared to some entirely different expectation.

So, to be clear, I don't really enjoy music games and I never got into Shenmue (don't kill me), so take my thoughts about the correlation between the two with a grain of salt.

I'm on much more solid ground if we go back to something like the Doom example, which is one of the first games I was ever obsessed with to the point of really getting "in the zone". In something like Doom, there really is a translation that happens between what's on screen and what you need to do, that translation isn't explicit, and being able to do that translation quickly and accurately is what made being in the zone so satisfying.

Additionally, it sounds to me like you're saying that good QTEs basically imply what you should do on the screen. It would seem to me, then, that the pinnacle of QTEs would be not even having to tell you what to do, but allowing you to figure that out based on what's happening.

Having said that, my experience with QTEs is relatively limited because I generally avoid them, so it's possible that good ones exist. It's just that in my experience, they're too often a gameplay crutch used when a game designer wants something to be "cinematic", but finds that they then can't properly integrate game mechanics. Again, it probably not always the case, but it's often enough that I'm generally wary of all QTEs.

I should also say that I agree with your general assertion that mechanics are judged by what they are, but I also think that a QTE pretty much inherently removes a part of gameplay I find enjoyable. Maybe someday someone will make a QTE that really works for me, but I can only really comment on the ones I've experienced.

 

[fvng]

Umm, this image was referring to the unintentional laughs in the game...because well, look at it. Nothing to do with the aesthetics.

He quoted my post about aesthetics and unintentional laughs, figured the screenshot was a reference to the former.... I guess it's because that scene didn't make me chuckle at all. silly me

 

[derExperte]

Despite that scene, there are few unintentional laughs in Beyond. I mean unless you're a 12 year old that finds everything funny, then there isn't much to laugh at during the course of the story.

Cage's depiction of a punk teenage girl was hilarious. Everything involving hobos was hilarious. The part with the Native Americans had laughable moments but I was too embarassed to laugh.

so you've made a gross oversimplification based on promotional images yes?

See, that's how others think about you downplaying the intricate puzzle-gameplay of the old adventures. I had to actively use my brain to advance.

 

[El Sloth]

Only on NeoGaf are they smashed lol

I doubt you'll find many David Cage fans on /v/ or the Something Awful forums. Or even /r/Games.

 

[Krejlooc]

I understand that, yes, but all the same you can essentially play the entire game without engaging in any meaningful gameplay.

What about

Spoiler

The shootout when whats-his-face storms the mansion?

I think you're being a bit of a reductionist.

 

[To Far Away Times]

David Cage's hideous works are the videogame equivalent of The Room.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Let's not exaggerate things here.

The Room isn't nearly that bad.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Heavy Rain was very well written, and enjoyable.

There are way too many plotholes in Heavy Rain, it's not well written at all.

 

[TheHollowNight]

Cage's depiction of a punk teenage girl was hilarious. Everything involving hobos was hilarious. The part with the Native Americans had laughable moments but I was too embarassed to laugh.

Yeah, I played the game with a couple of dev friends and there were parts that were flat out jarringly weird, we burst out laughing a couple of times. Especially the teen angst rebel tantrum.

 

[Peff]

What about

Spoiler

The shootout when whats-his-face storms the mansion?

I think you're being a bit of a reductionist.

You can in fact get though that one without touching a button, you simply won't enter the office then, which doesn't really make a difference anyway.

 

[fvng]

See, that's how others think about you downplaying the intricate puzzle-gameplay of the old adventures. I had to actively use my brain to advance.

I'm not downplaying them. I love adventure game puzzles. I was more excited about Grim Fandango during Sony's presser than anything else they presented.

These parts were literally you collecting clues by walking around. They don't require any thought.

And pixel hunting in 90s adventure games required thought? I collected clues in Gabriel Knight, Sins of the Fathers, and it required clicking on things hoping I'd hit the right thing, and believe me when I say it didn't tax my brain to do so.

 

[daviyoung]

And pixel hunting in 90s adventure games required thought? I collected clues in Gabriel Knight, Sins of the Fathers, and it required clicking on things and believe me when I say it didn't tax my brain to do so.

those parts in Heavy Rain are literally just a pixel hunt and you're trying to pass them off as puzzles, it's like saying turning a shoe around in LA Noire is the puzzle

 

[Taruranto]

Grim Fandango is an interactive movie with no no twitch(wat?) gameplay.. Wut?

I'm confused, did you even play it?

 

[snoopeasystreet]

I think people follow the logic of "TellTale makes adventure games, therefore everything TellTale makes is an adventure game" and then extend that onto "every game like a TellTale game is an adventure game", which just isn't true or at least it isn't true in the context of classic adventure games.

For me, a classic adventure game is about interacting with a world to learn how it works and how things interact with another and then using that knowledge to solve the puzzles set out by the designer/s. I think classic adventure games are at their best when you feel like you're in the designer's head and solve a scenario intuitively rather than trying everything on everything else until you unlock the gate to the next area. This doesn't occur in modern TellTale games or anything David Cage has made.

For as many faults as the game has, LA Noire is far more of a modern interpretation of a classic adventure game than either The Walking Dead or a Heavy Rain/Beyond. It's less about outright solving a puzzle but it certainly contains that "I've found this thing, how does this fit into the world in a way that helps me out" the problem was, the only way it fit into the world was to have Ken Cosgrove flip out at a suspect in a particular way.

 

[Krejlooc]

So, to be clear, I don't really enjoy music games and I never got into Shenmue (don't kill me), so take my thoughts about the correlation between the two with a grain of salt.

I'm on much more solid ground if we go back to something like the Doom example, which is one of the first games I was ever obsessed with to the point of really getting "in the zone". In something like Doom, there really is a translation that happens between what's on screen and what you need to do, that translation isn't explicit, and being able to do that translation quickly and accurately is what made being in the zone so satisfying.

Additionally, it sounds to me like you're saying that good QTEs basically imply what you should do on the screen. It would seem to me, then, that the pinnacle of QTEs would be not even having to tell you what to do, but allowing you to figure that out based on what's happening.

Having said that, my experience with QTEs is relatively limited because I generally avoid them, so it's possible that good ones exist. It's just that in my experience, they're too often a gameplay crutch used when a game designer wants something to be "cinematic", but finds that they then can't properly integrate game mechanics. Again, it probably not always the case, but it's often enough that I'm generally wary of all QTEs.

But again, the existence of music games, which are entirely non-cinematic, should show you that there is enjoyment in the mechanic alone. It's possible you may not personally enjoy that sort of interaction - nobody has to like everything. I'm merely trying to explain to you the sort of enjoyment someone like myself derives from them.

I'm an old school gamer, I enjoy arcade games the most. My favorite kind of interaction between a player and the game he's playing boils down to the game showing you a mechanic, you mastering that mechanic, then the game testing you to see how well you can do that mechanic increasingly faster. Tetris is fun at low speeds, it's much more fun for me at high speeds. The skill in trying to keep up is where I find my fun. I feel the same way about QTE's. They boil down the task to the simplest possible interaction - "press this button when I tell you to" but in removing as much of the translation as possible, it becomes possible for the game to push you to much higher speeds.

It's like pac-man... ever played pac-man at a reeeeeeeally high level? It starts going incredibly fast. That speed is what I enjoy. In Shenmue, the QTEs start off simple, and as the game progresses, they start adding in more input, and giving you shorter spans to input them. In rockband, the entire progression of the game is increasingly complex note charts moving at increasingly faster speeds. Same with space invaders - as the aliens get lower to the screen, you have less time to react, and as you kill more of them, they speed up.

That tight rope between your task and the time you have to do it is the gameplay I'm finding, and it's what I enjoy.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

People fail to realize that all games don't have to be about controlling a avatar & people can have just as much fun without ever controlling the avatar's movements.

No, you don't understand. If it's not a platinum game or a platformer, it's not a video game!

Spoiler

/s

 

[fvng]

those parts in Heavy Rain are literally just a pixel hunt and you're trying to pass them off as puzzles, it's like saying turning a shoe around in LA Noire is the puzzle

yes it's pixel hunt without the pixel hunting because who the fuck wants to do that? pixel hunting is a relic of the 90s, even Telltale thankfully realized this is a waste of the player's time. Removing the hunt aspect of this is just an evolution of the genre and respecting the player's time.

Cage's depiction of a punk teenage girl was hilarious. Everything involving hobos was hilarious. The part with the Native Americans had laughable moments but I was too embarassed to laugh.

The punk teenage shit was funny because it was cringy, and that's true to awkward adolescence because we all cringe at how awkward we are during adolescence. There was nothing funny about the hobos segment, it was more touching than anything else.. the is the first time I've read anyone describing that segment as hilarious. The Native American chapter is only guilty of being boring

 

[Betty]

He quoted my post about aesthetics and unintentional laughs, figured the screenshot was a reference to the former.... I guess it's because that scene didn't make me chuckle at all. silly me

Jeez, did you at least laugh when Jodie and Ryan donned Chinese guard uniforms and were immediately caught after taking a couple of steps inside their underwater base?

I mean she's supposed to be a super soldier, an experienced stealth operative of the highest order, so that part must have made you chuckle, surely.

 

[Krejlooc]

You can in fact get though that one without touching a button, you simply won't enter the office then, which doesn't really make a difference anyway.

doesn't

Spoiler

not doing that make it impossible for you to get the "perfect crime" ending because whats-his-face leaves too many pieces of evidence hanging?

I thought Heavy Rain was more enjoyable trying to get the perfect crime ending, because it's a tangible goal that you actually have to think about obtaining. Making sure to not leave any threads hanging.

 

[derExperte]

I'm not downplaying them. I love adventure game puzzles. I was more excited about Grim Fandango during Sony's presser than anything else they presented.



And pixel hunting in 90s adventure games required thought? I collected clues in Gabriel Knight, Sins of the Fathers, and it required clicking on things hoping I'd hit the right thing, and believe me when I say it didn't tax my brain to do so.

The premise of this thread is wholly based upon you thinking there isn't any qualitative difference between the 'old' and 'new' gameplay.



I didn't like Sierra adventures as much because of pixel hunting. LucasArts' games had much less of that and more intricate puzzle where you had to actively think about what had to be done with the tools/items/conversation options available to you. HR and Beyond stop way before that, you run around, look for button prompts, press said buttons, the scene ends.

The punk teenage shit was funny because it was cringy, and that's true to awkward adolescence because we all cringe at how awkward we are during adolescence.

No, it was funny because it was so goddamn cliché. Same with the hobos and natives.

 

[PfantzyPantz]

The comparisons to The Room are apt, though as many have said, The Room is actually entertaining.

I like QTE games; I love Telltale. Heavy Rain had some nice gameplay moments, but the stories in Cage's games are farcical to an absurd degree. They're all just a mash up of 'oh this movie scene is cool, let's use it' , without any proper thought or context.

Beyond's story was just as awful as his other games. The only reason people like it is because they are easily manipulated by good acting/actors.

And that's the reason why people hate Cage's games yet love LucasArts and Telltale. Because they care about the characters, the story, and the feel. Those games have soul, Cage's games are pretentious,soulless schlock.

 

[fvng]

Jeez, did you at least laugh when Jodie and Ryan donned Chinese guard uniforms and were immediately caught after taking a couple of steps inside their underwater base?

I mean she's supposed to be a super soldier, an experienced stealth operative of the highest order, so that part must have made you chuckle, surely.

No but the premise of that scene felt very 90s adventure gamish to me so I enjoyed it on that level, I didn't laugh. I think the only time I laughed was the punk rocker phase of her youth but only because it felt faithful to how awkward teenage adolescence is, so I cringed and chuckled at that.

 

[kiaaa]

And pixel hunting in 90s adventure games required thought? I collected clues in Gabriel Knight, Sins of the Fathers, and it required clicking on things hoping I'd hit the right thing, and believe me when I say it didn't tax my brain to do so.

Why do you keep putting words in peoples' mouths? I never said pixel hunting required thought and no one is referring to pixel hunting when they're talking about the puzzles in adventure games.

Jeez, did you at least laugh when Jodie and Ryan donned Chinese guard uniforms and were immediately caught after taking a couple of steps inside their underwater base?

I mean she's supposed to be a super soldier, an experienced stealth operative of the highest order, so that part must have made you chuckle, surely.

The best part about the scene was that one of the other two agents was an Asian male. Should we use him to infiltrate the underwater Chinese base or the short white female?

 

[p2535748]

That tight rope between your task and the time you have to do it is the gameplay I'm finding, and it's what I enjoy.

I have to run, so I need to drop this, but let me finish by saying that if you enjoy QTEs, that's fine, and I can't tell you you're wrong for doing so. I'm just explaining why I don't find them to be a good gameplay mechanic. There are probably plenty of gameplay mechanics I enjoy that someone else wouldn't.

The question was posed why people reject QTEs as a form of gameplay, and I'm saying why I never respond to them. They don't hit what I'm looking for from a game. I understand you get something different out of it, and that's cool too, it's just not something I enjoy.

 

[daviyoung]

yes it's pixel hunt without the pixel hunting because who the fuck wants to do that? pixel hunting is a relic of the 90s, even Telltale thankfully realized this is a waste of the player's time. Removing the hunt aspect of this is just an evolution of the genre and respecting the player's time.

are you taking the piss?

 

[Gbraga]

This is a game in which Ellen Page plays a supernatural hobo commando.

With a stand

EDIT: To quote myself:

What I played

What I expected

What I got

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMff2iO3qlU

And I LOVE it!

NO ONE CAN BEAT THE WORLD

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I thought David Cage games get attacked because they're written like garbage.

I play a lot of games that have equal (or lesser) gameplay qualities than Heavy Rain, Fahrenheit, and Beyond, but I don't consider them to be lesser games. Most of them execute their story pretty well. Cage's games don't and that's why they fail to pass muster.

 

[bigboss370]

well, the people saying cage's games aren't "games" or don't have gameplay are being narrow minded anyways.

 

[Fuz]

Lucasarts games have no gameplay? Are you completely crazy? Or are you one of those people who can only shoot things to enjoy something?


Edit: I liked Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy.

 

[Krejlooc]

I have to run, so I need to drop this, but let me finish by saying that if you enjoy QTEs, that's fine, and I can't tell you you're wrong for doing so. I'm just explaining why I don't find them to be a good gameplay mechanic. There are probably plenty of gameplay mechanics I enjoy that someone else wouldn't.

The question was posed why people reject QTEs as a form of gameplay, and I'm saying why I never respond to them. They don't hit what I'm looking for from a game. I understand you get something different out of it, and that's cool too, it's just not something I enjoy.

I understood where you were coming from, I wasn't really trying to get you to start enjoying QTE mechanics or anything. Merely trying to explain the joy I derive from them, and how I don't feel all QTEs are of the same quality.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Well, other than the fact your argument is fundamentally flawed OP, the other reason we can criticize Heavy Rain and the such is b/c unlike the adventure games you listed, HR doesn't have any real puzzles. Most of the solutions are brain-dead easy and kind of solve themselves for you.

That's the difference between a quasi-adventure game and a real adventure game: real puzzles.

 

[fvng]

Why do you keep putting words in peoples' mouths?

Say what? I didn't bring up pixel hunting initially and I brought it up again because we're on the subject of mindless unchallenging tasks in the games being discussed in this thread

Lucasarts games have no gameplay? Are you completely crazy? Or are you one of those people who can only shoot things to enjoy something?

Of course they have gameplay, the crux of the thread is that Cage's games have gameplay as well and aren't merely interactive movies.. and that twitch reflex gameplay isn't necessary to be considered a game.. Catch up

are you taking the piss?

Is this a regional expression?

 

[Sulik2]

Adventure game puzzles are gameplay. Branching narratives and multiple paths based on choices is gameplay too. David Cage makes games, he just writes terrible stories.

 

[daviyoung]

Say what? I didn't bring up pixel hunting initially and I brought it up again because we're on the subject of mindless unchallenging tasks in the games being discussed in this thread

You said:

My memory on this is hazy on this because I haven't played it in years but aren't the police officer segments of Heavy Rain somewhat puzzle based (investigating crime scenes, using that futuristic tool to create an office anywhere)..

We saw:

puzzle based

We've been trying to tell you that no, they are not puzzle based because all they keep from adventure game puzzles is the pixel hunt, which isn't part of the puzzle...it's part of the adventure.

Then, you said:

yes it's pixel hunt without the pixel hunting because who the fuck wants to do that?

So not only did Heavy Rain keep the worst part of puzzle solving (in your opinion) from adventure games, it also distilled it to pointlessness! Hilarious.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

David Cage games are choose your own adventure books in videogame format.

If you come into things expecting that you'll probably be a lot more likely to enjoy them, but people come into them with different expectations and leave disappointed as a result. The format he chose is not as demanding as a difficult puzzle game, but it's absolutely a form of interactive entertainment, whether you choose to call it gameplay or not doesn't matter much to me.

 

[fvng]

No, it was funny because it was so goddamn cliché. Same with the hobos and natives.

If you're going to be turned off by narrative clichés in video games then you need to find a new hobby because 90% of stories/storytelling contain clichés. If you only play games for gameplay and ignore storyline, then that's different.

So not only did Heavy Rain keep the worst part of puzzle solving (in your opinion) from adventure games, it also distilled it to pointlessness! Hilarious.

I'm saying they took the headache out of the worst part of adventure games, something that Telltale has also done. Are you saying you miss pixel hunting (assuming you actually played any classic adventure games)