Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

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Finale Fireworker said:
Hello everyone. Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc.

I want to talk about Ike and what he represents by returning and what we might attempt to infer from his inclusion. Because, regardless of the semantics, Ike's return did not seem quantifiably likely. There is nothing in Ike's character that a version of Chrom could not inherit and everybody knew/knows that an Awakening rep was unavoidable. While it appears inevitable now, it seemed strange that Sakurai would feel three blue-haired swordsmen was the best way to represent a series heavily populated by interesting characters of both sexes and so many combat classes.

But when making the roster and determining which characters could be expendable, Sakurai decided Ike was not one of them. One of the most "replaceable" characters, and arguably THE most, was not only never on the chopping block but received a complete model update. We know that Smash 4's development began by porting Brawl over, which means all veterans have dramatically less development time than new characters and in some form every Brawl veteran exists in the alpha state of the game. But while crucial characters like Fox remain unchanged, which there is no reason Ike could not also have been, Ike was the one who got the make-over. The oh-so-expendable lord was deemed worthy of extra development time and now we have Radiant Dawn Ike in Smash 4.

SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

Honestly, I think it means no cuts beyond Squirtle, Ivysaur, and possibly Snake.

We know that Sakurai's logic is very personal and arbitrary and nobody knows exactly what makes him decide the things he does. But if so much care and effort was put into Ike then I think we conclude Sakurai doesn't consider any of Brawl's characters expendable. Any arguments about relevance and recency or even the ease with which characters could be replaced with new ones are outside Sakurai's personal logic entirely. This means that, barring the limitations of development time, the only characters who would not return are characters that Sakurai feels don't meet his particular vision for the game.

Squirtle and Ivysaur face this complication because the mechanic they were designed around was removed. Snake could meet this criteria because he was a guest character chosen to specifically contrast Brawl's roster.

But I think it is silly to think that a director and a team that would dedicate the resources to bring Ike back to the battle wouldn't set out a seat for every other Brawl veteran as well. This is ultimately question that we can't know the answer to until the game is released, but even in spite of Lucas's shaky state and people nervous Ganondorf might turn into Demise I think it is LESS likely we'll see any other cuts. 47 characters be damned, you know?
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Welcome. I agree we're getting more than 47-48 characters.

Though I don't see why Ike's such a big deal. When he showed Toon Link back in September it was basically clear he'd bring back as many veterans as possible. He even stated he didn't want any cuts in an interview on Kotaku after last year's E3.

BTW "alts week" has been cool, but I'm really starved for a veteran announcement. It's been a month since Ike's reveal and the next global direct, where we can expect a newcomer, is probably in August. I sincerily hope Sakurai won't make us wait that much. Especially since the japanese 3DS version is right around the corner (September): you gotta throw out those veterans!
 
Has it been confirmed yet if you can lower the time it takes for Smash Run down from 5 minutes?

5 minutes is ridiculously too long to power-up for a 1 minute random effect fight. And it's 2-3 minutes too long to watch on Youtube.
 
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
 
Oblivion said:
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
Click to expand...

Customizable movesets enormously increase the number of special moves per character, Mii is essentially character creation.
 
Oblivion said:
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
Click to expand...

For real? I'm not the biggest fan of custom moves but it's a pretty huge deal.
 
Neoriceisgood said:
Customizable movesets enormously increase the number of special moves per character, Mii is essentially character creation.
Click to expand...

Aβydoς;119495987 said:
For real? I'm not the biggest fan of custom moves but it's a pretty huge deal.
Click to expand...

Oh forgot about the custom movesets. That is indeed pretty significant.
 
Axass said:
BTW "alts week" has been cool, but I'm really starved for a veteran announcement. It's been a month since Ike's reveal and the next global direct, where we can expect a newcomer, is probably in August. I sincerily hope Sakurai won't make us wait that much. Especially since the japanese 3DS version is right around the corner (September): you gotta throw out those veterans!
Click to expand...

I just wanna see Mr. Game & Watch already! Why haven't we gotten his page yet, yeesh! Show us some cute screenshots of Mr. Game & Watch wobbling around, the screenshots are always the best part of veteran reveals.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Pic of the day. Pac-Maze is a stage exclusive to the 3DS version, created in the Pac-Man motif. If you eat 100 Pac-Dots, Power Pellets will appear in your color.

zlCfzSH4Gh4V13kyno


If you eat a Power Pellet, the monsters will become vulnerable and you can defeat them just by touching them. An important point is that the monsters will become vulnerable only on your screen, which means that they can still damage your opponents!! This is one of the unique game features only possible in the 3DS version.

zlCfzSH4HIApTzdVjQ


AMERICA
Click to expand...

Right side of the first pic, looks like the stage will switch horizontally. Second pic, it's weird that Pac-man has outline but Kirby doesn't(or gray outline). Any thoughts?
 
Oblivion said:
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
Click to expand...

SSBM also brought in B forward specials.
 
Oblivion said:
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
Click to expand...

Moveset customization
 
The thread about Miyamoto wanting Pac in Brawl got me thinking about what other third party characters could get in (let me go on record that I don't think any more third party characters will get in SSB4). Pac-Man fits because he is retro and cartoony like many of the other characters on the roster, but Pac-Man doesn't have a notable history on Nintendo consoles. I like that he's in but it certainly feels like it's because Namco is helping with development. Sonic has primarily appeared on Nintendo platforms since Sega went third party, so even he fits in better. And of course, most of Mega Man's games are on Nintendo platforms. Other candidates...

Bomberman: He's been appearing mostly on Nintendo consoles ever since the NES days. Konami owns him now, and I think he would fit much better than Snake.

Simon Belmont: Castlevania started on the NES and while the franchise shifted towards Playstation for a while, the series has thrived on Nintendo's handhelds. The series has a lot of protagonists, but Belmont was the main character in the first two games and in Super Castlevania IV (which was actually a remake of the first game). But do you go with Barbarian Simon, ginger Simon, or Prince Valiant Simon?

Pete/Jack: Who? The kid from Harvest Moon! I thought his name was Jack, but some people say that his official name is Pete. WHATEVER. Anyways he appeared in the original game, the 64 version, all the GBC games, and the GBA game. Harvest Moon has mostly been a Nintendo only franchise and the series is still kicking today.

Professor Layton: If they want to pick a more recent character, Layton could work. Level 5 develops a lot of games for Nintendo platforms (thanks for DQIX by the way) and he would be a great DS representative. I always like the inclusion of non-combatant characters in the series.

Phoenix Wright: In the same vein as Layton, he is a non-combatant that has shown up mostly of Nintendo handhelds. He did appear in MvC3 though.

Chocobo: I was trying to think of a good FF representative, but none of the leads really stuck out. Why pick Terra over Cecil for instance? But then I realized Chocobos are in nearly every FF Nintendo game, and some games of the Chocobo series even appeared on the DS/Wii. It would be a good cutesy character, maybe a rival of Yoshi.

Slime: Similar to Chocobo, slimes are an iconic part of Dragon Quest which got its start on Nintendo platforms (and then came crawling back). There are so many different types of slimes, so I think you could have a lot of diversity with its moveset even though the character's appearance is as simple as can be.

Ryu Hayabusa: Kind of a stretch. I mean Ninja Gaiden did start on the NES, but the franchise hit the big time with the Xbox reboot. Ryu has appeared in Ninja Gaiden DS and NG3 was on the Wii U though, and Tecmo is very close with Nintendo. I want to see him fight Greninja.

Contra dudes: I have no idea what their names are... the dudes! The dudes from Contra! I think they could be similar to Snake, but with crazier weapons. Contra has mostly been on Nintendo platforms throughout its history, even showing up on the Wii and DS.
 
nerdbot said:
I just wanna see Mr. Game & Watch already! Why haven't we gotten his page yet, yeesh! Show us some cute screenshots of Mr. Game & Watch wobbling around, the screenshots are always the best part of veteran reveals.
Click to expand...

I still don't think we're going to see unlockable characters on the website until post-release.
 
SuperAngelo64 said:
I still don't think we're going to see unlockable characters on the website until post-release.
Click to expand...

If Mr. Game & Watch is secret then why'd they show him to us?

Something's definitely different with how they're doing characters this time around if we know about Luigi, Marth and Lucario already. I don't particularly care either way, but I'm in the "we won't have any secret characters" camp.
 
I'd like to have Bomberman in, but I'm already pretty happy with Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man as third party characters.

At this point I just need Shulk or Riki as newcomer, and no just because I like them, but because I really, really want a Xenoblade stage :P
 
nerdbot said:
If Mr. Game & Watch is secret then why'd they show him to us?

Something's definitely different with how they're doing characters this time around if we know about Luigi, Marth and Lucario already. I don't particularly care either way, but I'm in the "we won't have any secret characters" camp.
Click to expand...

We learned about C.Falcon and Ness before launch in Melee and that was... because they weren't unlockable there, but starters. I don't see why it's so odd for characters like Marth and Luigi to be starters here but there still being hidden characters. Game & Watch technically was just teased. His appearance there doesn't necessarily mean that he'd be a playable character. It's not very different from Samurai Goroh having an F-Zero emblem before Captain Falcon himself is confirmed.

If you believe that there aren't hidden characters here, what are you expecting regarding the full line up's reveal? A bunch of reveals quickly done in the next few weeks, or just a reduced cast compared to Brawl? Because at the current pace of official reveals, I don't think there's any other choice if you really believe that every character will be officially revealed before launch.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Pic of the day. Pac-Maze is a stage exclusive to the 3DS version, created in the Pac-Man motif. If you eat 100 Pac-Dots, Power Pellets will appear in your color.

zlCfzSH4Gh4V13kyno


If you eat a Power Pellet, the monsters will become vulnerable and you can defeat them just by touching them. An important point is that the monsters will become vulnerable only on your screen, which means that they can still damage your opponents!! This is one of the unique game features only possible in the 3DS version.

zlCfzSH4HIApTzdVjQ


AMERICA
Click to expand...
Still better than that retro DK stage.
 
Oblivion said:
It just occurred to me that SSB4 doesn't seem to have any gameplay features or aspects that distinguish it from Brawl. We have yet to see the single player mode, but on the multiplayer front, there really doesn't seem to be any evolution, or even lateral progress.

- SSB64: Created the base for SSB.
- SSBM: Was a turbocharged SSB64. Had a huge bump in speed and quantity.
- SSBB: Introduced Final Smashes

What does SSB4 bring to the table that hasn't been in previous SSB titles and is a significant addition?
Click to expand...
Don't you know, man? This is just Brawl 2.0. /s

In terms of new mechanics, pretty much the only big thing is edge trumping. Smash 4 is actually distinguished from Brawl moreso by the things it's removed, like tripping, smash DI for some reason, edge invincibility and the bullshit airdodging.
 
Ya know, I kinda wanna see a Dr. Mario bottle level. Only kill area is through the top like Shadow Moses except the walls can't come down. The viruses spawn in random areas as mini hazards, the pills fall down and create temporary platforms, and rarely, its alt is Tetris.
 
nerdbot said:
If Mr. Game & Watch is secret then why'd they show him to us?

Something's definitely different with how they're doing characters this time around if we know about Luigi, Marth and Lucario already. I don't particularly care either way, but I'm in the "we won't have any secret characters" camp.
Click to expand...

Sakurai said that "secrets" don't work the way they used to because everything is immediately spoiled on the internet. Therefore he probablty sees no need to hide who is unlockable and who is not. Who is in the game is the easiest thing to advertise and build excitement, evidenced by the CG trailers for newcomers, so I don't really believe we have any way of knowing who is unlocked from the get-go and who is not.

I also don't think the same characters who have been unlockables in the past will necessarily be unlockables again. Marth is brought up a lot, but Marth is not an exciting unlock anymore. With three Fire Emblem reps now, should the unlockable one really be Marth? It's semantics really, but Brawl had pretty unexhilerating unlocks and having the same unlockable characters game after diminishes the excitement in unlocking them at all.
 
Nice Stage for Pac Man, i like it.

regarding characters i like to unlock them, the challenger approaching is pretty much a staple of the smash series.
 
Forkball said:
Pac-Man fits because he is retro and cartoony like many of the other characters on the roster, but Pac-Man doesn't have a notable history on Nintendo consoles.
Click to expand...
There are tons of multiplatform Pac-Man games available on Nintendo systems: Pac-Man, Pac-Land, Pac-Man 2, the three Pac-Man World games, Pac-Man Fever, and a bunch of compilations.

Pac-Man Collection, Pac-Man Vs., Pac-Man Pinball Advance, Pac-Pix, Pac 'n Roll, Pac-Man Party, and Pac-Man & Galaga Dimensions were released exclusively on Nintendo platforms. Pac-Man's also the lead character in Namco Museum Remix, and he's playable in the three Mario Kart Arcade GP games. I'd say he's more relevant to Nintendo than most potential guest characters.
 
I'm for Unlocks. As annoying as it can be for other fighters, it's genuinely fun for Smash. The alarms and the silhouette, and of course, the fight to unlock. I hated how you could get everyone in SSE, even though the traditional way was there, too. Here's hopin we can at least get a decently challenging unlock system that doesn't require 20hrs of smash time (Mewtwo.....)
 
Yeah, you can't really say Pacman isn't important to Nintendo when he's in more than one Mario Kart. ROB can't even say that, and Link's never even been in one lol

Hell, he's been in more Mario Karts than Diddy, right?

Gilbals said:
I'm for Unlocks. As annoying as it can be for other fighters, it's genuinely fun for Smash. The alarms and the silhouette, and of course, the fight to unlock. I hated how you could get everyone in SSE, even though the traditional way was there, too. Here's hopin we can at least get a decently challenging unlock system that doesn't require 20hrs of smash time (Mewtwo.....)
Click to expand...
Mewtwo is one of the easiest characters to get in Melee, just go to sleep. And for those last three characters, you basically had to beat SSE.
 
Beelzebufo said:
Yeah, you can't really say Pacman isn't important to Nintendo when he's in more than one Mario Kart. ROB can't even say that, and Link's never even been in one lol

Hell, he's been in more Mario Karts than Diddy, right?


Mewtwo is one of the easiest characters to get in Melee, just go to sleep. And for those last three characters, you basically had to beat SSE.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's right. Pac Man was a playable character in all three Mario Kart arcade games.
 
Gilbals said:
I'm for Unlocks. As annoying as it can be for other fighters, it's genuinely fun for Smash. The alarms and the silhouette, and of course, the fight to unlock. I hated how you could get everyone in SSE, even though the traditional way was there, too. Here's hopin we can at least get a decently challenging unlock system that doesn't require 20hrs of smash time (Mewtwo.....)
Click to expand...

Unlocking content in Smash is basically the entire reason for the single-player content. It's a museum experience based on indulging your enthusiasm for the properties and the only way to "beat the game" is to unlock everything. I feel like people asking for no unlockables (or no unlockable characters) just aren't interested at all in the single-player Smash experience.

I get that this is a series built for multiplayer but I value my time alone with the Smash series too. I never want Smash to be like CoD where people don't even play the campaign because they're only interested in the online.
 
Finale Fireworker said:
Unlocking content in Smash is basically the entire reason for the single-player experience. It's a museum experience based on indulging your enthusiasm for the properties and the only way to "beat the game" is to unlock everything. I feel like people asking for no unlockables (or no unlockable characters) just aren't interested at all in the single-player Smash experience.

I get that this is a series built for multiplayer but I value my time alone with the Smash series too. I never want Smash to be like CoD where people don't even play the campaign because they're only interested in the online.
Click to expand...
To be fair, I think by "no unlockables" they just mean characters. There are still songs, stages, trophies, custom moves, custom clothing, etc to unlock.

Another possibility is that while characters are unlockable, they're really easy to unlock, and we know about them all before release (a la Mario Kart 8). If that's the case though, they better get a move on with reveals.
 
Ryce said:
There are tons of multiplatform Pac-Man games available on Nintendo systems: Pac-Man, Pac-Land, Pac-Man 2, the three Pac-Man World games, Pac-Man Fever, and a bunch of compilations.

Pac-Man Collection, Pac-Man Vs., Pac-Man Pinball Advance, Pac-Pix, Pac 'n Roll, Pac-Man Party, and Pac-Man & Galaga Dimensions were released exclusively on Nintendo platforms. Pac-Man's also the lead character in Namco Museum Remix, and he's playable in the three Mario Kart Arcade GP games. I'd say he's more relevant to Nintendo than most potential guest characters.
Click to expand...

I noticed that people who disagreed with third party guest characters (mainly with Pac Man) being in the game is just being Nintendo Purists or dislike any of those characters for unknown reasons.

At least, they might won the war with Snake bullshit.

Gilbals said:
I'm for Unlocks. As annoying as it can be for other fighters, it's genuinely fun for Smash. The alarms and the silhouette, and of course, the fight to unlock. I hated how you could get everyone in SSE, even though the traditional way was there, too. Here's hopin we can at least get a decently challenging unlock system that doesn't require 20hrs of smash time (Mewtwo.....)
Click to expand...

Yeah, we noticed that customization move sets are more likely to be unlockable feature as well. I'm excited with a notion that we might have a lot of unlockable contents.

Beelzebufo said:
To be fair, I think by "no unlockables" they just mean characters. There are still songs, stages, trophies, custom moves, custom clothing, etc to unlock.

Another possibility is that while characters are unlockable, they're really easy to unlock, and we know about them all before release (a la Mario Kart 8). If that's the case though, they better get a move on with reveals.
Click to expand...

Good thing that we have "somewhat" confirmation that we are going to have unlockable characters if Nintendo Rep is correct with his information.
 
IntelliHeath said:
At least, they might won the war with Snake bullshit.
Click to expand...

totally honest here

did sakurai deconfirm Snake or something like that? is there some interview or anything that discuss this topic with him? I am not saying that because if he hasn't been confirmed as removed, he will be in the game, just asking
 
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