Will humanity ever give up eating meat? When?
- Thread starter SCULLIBUNDO
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So you are saying that eating meat = owning slaves, murder and rape? I don't know what the hell is wrong with you moral compass, if you can't see the FUCKING difference between eating meat and RAPE!
Oh please, he's obviously making a point about ethics not being immediately tied to our animal instincts, in response to someone arguing that meat smells good, so it's ethical to eat.
Also, i agree with you that is down to making compromises with your ethics, but i don't think there's a need to get delusional about it.
I'm just saying slaveholders used the same arguments, as did the Nazis or other groups who were in favor of euthanasia (social darwinism). A lot of things used to be normal or natural for a thousand years that we became rid of.
And I eat meat btw as I already said. But people in here don't really seem to see the causality between eating meat and the meat industry, which does a lot of harm (CO2 production f.e.). The times are over when you got your steak from the farmer with his dozen cows... Just imagine how many cows and chickens are killed everyday - well it's unimaginable.
Emerging third world countries will want their fair share as well. Also it's not like we eat meat responsibly. We have stuff like this which ultimately gets spoiled:
Or think of all-you-can-eat buffets. It's great that people enjoy meat or fish, I do as well.
But at the same time it's a contribution to global warming.
No. Is my English that bad? I was comparing the reasoning.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
We will never stop eating meat. Even if we somehow manage to stop producing meat there's always cannibalism.
Cymbal Head
Banned
I'm not a militant vegetarian, but I've dropped my meat consumption way down this year (basically only eat meat when I'm a guest somewhere and very rarely when out to lunch or dinner) and I'm happy with it. I did it partly for health reasons and partly for ethical reasons. I don't think eating meat is wrong per se, but I think factory farms are a mess in terms of environmental sustainability and humane treatment of animals.
I will resume eating meat regularly once lab grown meat is cheap and effective. I would try insects.
To answer the OPs question: humans will give up meat when a) it becomes too expensive or b) alternatives become cheap enough to displace it. But because of the way we run most of our farms, that day is unlikely to be in the near or middle-term future.
I will resume eating meat regularly once lab grown meat is cheap and effective. I would try insects.
To answer the OPs question: humans will give up meat when a) it becomes too expensive or b) alternatives become cheap enough to displace it. But because of the way we run most of our farms, that day is unlikely to be in the near or middle-term future.
There are farms that (most local) that do provide "responsible" or "ethical" raising and killing of animals.
And to ignore a scientific basis for something that provides us some sort of indicator that something is safe or not safe to eat and then linking that to rationalizing slavery or racism seems silly to me.
I do agree with your assessment of giant food items. I personally dislike eating competitions for this very reason.
BossLackey
Gold Member
What? No. That will never, ever happen.
Our very physiology is based on us eating meat. Several studies have pointed to the eating of cooked meat being the reason for our large and sophisticated brains.
This is........just...ridiculous.
Our very physiology is based on us eating meat. Several studies have pointed to the eating of cooked meat being the reason for our large and sophisticated brains.
This is........just...ridiculous.
Yes, but we are not talking about sustainable farms. Or are you only buying your meat at the local farmer? That's not really what the majority does.
Of course it's safe to eat, but that's not really saying much and isn't related anyhow to ethics.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
My uncle owns a pig farm and I was horrified at what those poor animals go through just so somebody can eat bacon. I'm not militant about diet and people who know me only know that I don't eat meat if we go out to eat. I don't judge meat eaters unless they are eating veal or foie gras or other cruel items like that.
The point to me is that whether it's ok or not for your body to eat meat, the ethical concern of needing to kill an animal to, remains.
For example if in the future we were able to find a way to grow artificial meat in labs, the killing of actual cows and pigs would become especially questionable.
Which is not to say outright wrong, for example there are many instances in which animals need to be killed simply to maintain an habitat's balance, or because they're outright pests.
But it is very much up to serious ethical debate.
So to me the fact that we as a species are very much made to love and enjoy meat, isn't that conclusive of an argument, when it comes to the ethical side of it.
Not always, but in the summers we have some amazing local farmers visit our farmers markets with different cuts of pigs/cows/poultry...also part of a local foodie club and these same farmers will do breakdown demonstrations for us.
Hopefully the tide will turn for more and more responsible farming...
Can you name a specific Indian culture that is/was 100% vegetarian? India is a big place with a whole lot of meat eaters.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
Why isn't it wrong to eat meat, unless it's essentially a matter of surviving? We humans have options unlike wild animals. We have a choice in the matter. Can inflicting pain and death for the sole reason of satisfying an optional preference, rather than a crucial need to survive, ever be considered the "right" thing ethically?
It's animals, not other people.
You're not exactly making a good argument there.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
Yet most people do tend to have some standards regarding how animals should be treated. Animal cruelty, for instance, is considered wrong by most.
I think people need to realize WHY we have it so good. The advent of agriculture and livestock is the reason why some of us live in a world of plenty. Raising your own food supply of meat and vegetables gave our civilization the extra time during the day we needed to create. Create music, art, tools, weapons till this point in time.
Now we currently live in a world where science and world trade has allowed people to ELECT to only eat vegetables because farmers all over the world grow and ship their products year round to a lucky few countries. And of course the things that they can't get from vegetables can be replaced with chemical supplements. Allowing a small minority to live in this "morale" high ground where they live without "hurting" animals.
Of course this premise is false, even if you don't eat meat you partake in products like medicine and other products that used animal studies to ensure that you wouldn't die if you used them.
At the end of the day, a vegetarian lifestyle is something a priviledged few can partake in. Most communities cannot support the amount and variety of vegetables it would take to completely replace meat and most people aren't willing to aggressively pay attention to everything they put in their body to ensure that they aren't severly lacking major nutrients. It takes a lot of thought, a lot of money and a lot of privledge to live a vegetarian life style. Meanwhile a small chicken, rice and some vegetables can provide for a family rather easily and cheaply.So all these "poor animals" posts are pretty silly. A balanced Omnivore diet is the easiest and cheapest way to provide healthy nutrition to a population.
And of course as for comparing cannibalism morality to eating another creature, it's not really comparable. Our society has thrived on trusting that within our community we can interact with, live and trust (to a certain extent) our neighbors. If human meat was considered fair game social structures, foreign relationships (nobody wants to eat their friend so people would eat foreigners) and such would be destroyed. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of diseases that inflict cannibals.
Basically we live and thrive in a society that has created cheap and easy ways to live off of meat and vegetables. Some animals currently exist in this world only because we chose to breed them for testing, food or other byproducts (clothing, Gelatin, etc.). And vegetarians DIRECTLY benefit from a society built by meat.
JJDinomite
Banned
Personally I hate eating vegitables. It hurts knowing that I'm literally consuming a once living thing.
SlipperySlope
Banned
Why do you think it's wrong?
John Kowalski
Banned
That's because survival is a deeply ingrained value in contemporary culture as a higher value, and as such it overrides ethics. I feel it is also paradoxically associated with both the notion that humans don't need to be more ethical than other animals and the notion that humans are inherent more valuable than other animals and that they need not care about such needless little creatures.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
anotherVegan
Member
I haven't eaten meat in six years. I don't see what the big deal is about meat.
Do you take supplements?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
"Morals are a luxury of the rich."
Anyway, the core of the issue to me comes down to the definition of "necessary."
I do think that meat consumption is necessary for optimal health. I put a strong priority on living healthy for a long time.
If you don't consider ethical reasons, consider sustainability, read this it's pretty insane:
"Growing meat (its hard to use the word raising when applied to animals in factory farms) uses so many resources that its a challenge to enumerate them all. But consider: an estimated 30 percent of the earths ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock production, according to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, which also estimates that livestock production generates nearly a fifth of the worlds greenhouse gases more than transportation."
More info here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?pagewanted=all
Cymbal Head
Banned
Twiforce said:
I'm mostly convinced by this argument, but I have seen good arguments that there are certain situations where some slaughtering of humanely raised livestock for food can be the ethical choice, which is why I consider myself agnostic on the question for now.
I would say that it's entirely possible for a sane, rational person to consent to being killed and eaten. I don't imagine it would be particularly common. Of course, we'd need a way to verify that they are indeed of sound mind and in full knowledge of the consequences.
It'd be similar to the sort of safeguard that some jurisdictions already have for assisted suicide.
This is a philosophical position. I am not advocating cannibalism.
Meat gave our ancestors the sustinance needed for us to evolve and develop the society we live in today. Now thanks to worldwide trade you have a constant supply of vegetables that come from different parts of the world different times of the year to ensure that you have food to eat. Basically humanity and society exist currently as it is because of meat.
Besides have you tried to be a Vegan in some other places. I went to Russia with a few Vegetarians and man where their options limited. It's not easy or cheap being a Vegetarian in places that don't readily provide for your lifestyle.
aygomyownroad
Member
You don't make friends with salad
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
And just about everyone who is a vegetarian not of their own choosing absolutely wants to quit as soon as they get the chance.
Something that many people advocating for a vegetarian lifestyle fail to recognize. The lifestyle is only possible thanks to modern technology and the shuttling of foods from around the world to your local super market. If society ever collapsed, vegetarianism and veganism would be over.
BlueBadger
Banned
It's completely possible to have a balanced diet without meat, yes.. But it can get pretty pricey at the end of the day, which just isn't realistic for some people imo o_o.
I do think that torturing animals before they're about to get killed is wrong. Having said that, I don't find the act of eating meat itself wrong.
I do think that torturing animals before they're about to get killed is wrong. Having said that, I don't find the act of eating meat itself wrong.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Good link. If you can afford it, absolutely get your food from local farmers who raise their livestock and grow their vegetables in an ethical and sustainable way. I certainly try to do this as much as possible.
Cymbal Head
Banned
For those of you who are genuinely conflicted about the ethics of eating meat but think it too hard to quit: try it if you haven't already. I told myself for years that it would be too hard to live without meat, and it turned out to be far easier than I expected (even though, as I said above, I do occasionally eat it when it's been prepared by a host or there aren't acceptable alternatives).
The same thing can be said for regular (/excessive, however you define that) meat consumption though. just look at the article I posted before. I also think the discovery of growing crops was far more important for developing modern civilization.
Kadayi
Banned
^This.
I honestly get tired of people believing that in the narrow whisper of time that constitutes the rise of civilization and the development of agriculture somehow we're able to overthrow hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in terms of our dietary requirements.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
The availability of edible meat and plant life depends entirely on your location, obviously.
Of course agriculture was important for developing modern civilization, because it allowed people to survive at a base level of sub-optimal health and nutrition, but the important thing was that it allowed them to live and support population growth because of this.
I don't think any of those poor peasants would have argued that their diets were optimal in any way, though. Populations forced into a grain/vegetarian lifestyle do not thrive and typically jump at the chance to get meat in their diet for good reason.
Our teeth mostly resemble that of gorilla
Our digestive system struggles with meat
We weren't designed to consume meat, we just choose to do it (sometimes have to for survival especially in freezing climates)
Just because we can process the food doesn't mean we were designed for it, they even feed pigs meat these days
Our digestive system struggles with meat
We weren't designed to consume meat, we just choose to do it (sometimes have to for survival especially in freezing climates)
Just because we can process the food doesn't mean we were designed for it, they even feed pigs meat these days
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What? Our digestive system handles meat just fine (obviously there is room for individual variance).
I can't say I'm a fan of your "we were designed" language, either.
Kadayi
Banned
The big problem is people consuming long form meat (like Beef or Tuna) where in the growth period of the animal is substantial in terms of the resources it consumes to reach maturity versus short form like chicken, which mature rapidly and don't consume massive amounts of resources.
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