Good shonen is quite rare (but when it's good I still really like the "genre" though.) but I find it interesting that you list Claymore among the good seinen as for one, it's not really a seinen manga and aside from not having a energetic boy hero is still a pretty typical shonen manga. I did quite like the anime (I've not gotten to buying the manga yet). It's a good series but it doesn't really stand out from the crowd enough to me to be mentioned alongside Berserk or Monster (I've not read Dorohedoro).
What is it about western comics manga readers are turned off by? (& vice-versa)
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Good shonen is quite rare (but when it's good I still really like the "genre" though.) but I find it interesting that you list Claymore among the good seinen as for one, it's not really a seinen manga and aside from not having a energetic boy hero is still a pretty typical shonen manga. I did quite like the anime (I've not gotten to buying the manga yet). It's a good series but it doesn't really stand out from the crowd enough to me to be mentioned alongside Berserk or Monster (I've not read Dorohedoro).
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
This.
I would love to get into some more self-contained Western comic arcs, but have no idea where to start and am always worried about context and backstory. I get sucked into rabbit holes of character relationships, histories, etc rather easily : /
To be fair a huge majority of the western audience did exactly that when we got Dragonball Z before the first anime. Most people didn't go back to watch Dragonball either.
I agree with the rest of your post though obviously not all western comics are DC/Marvel!
Host Samurai
Member
Sounds confusing which is my point. With manga there is a set start and end to it which is just much easier to follow.
I also like being invested into a big manga. Getting that weekly chapter of a manga gives me something to look forward to.
RoninChaos
Member
You should check out Ivan Reis' run on green lantern. Guy does action like no one else.
RoninChaos
Member
Exactly. This thread reads like a list of people who haven't read comics since the 90's. YOu can pick up most any comic these days and usually on the first two pages they'll talk about who the character is, and what motivates him and the story takes off from there. Of course, if you jump in on book 3 of a 6 part story, you're going to be lost.
Anybody that wants to try comics these days, DC has made it super easy to jump in. Pick up Batman by Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo. You don't need to really know anything about Batman to enjoy the series. It will explain everything to you, and everybody knows the basis for Batman, who he is and why he does what he does.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
Never read a mana before, but I've been recommended 20th century boys so I might give that a shot.
For all you manga reader, might I recommend the greatest graphic novel of all time?
For all you manga reader, might I recommend the greatest graphic novel of all time?
Neil Gaiman's The Sandman
I have both in the house.
I got kind of tired of superhero comics, though. There's just.. so many of them. Like, 95% of the USA comics market is literally superheroes. I don't have anything in particular against the genre, but i'm not willing to give any genre so much space in my backlog.
EU comics are more varied, luckily.
I got kind of tired of superhero comics, though. There's just.. so many of them. Like, 95% of the USA comics market is literally superheroes. I don't have anything in particular against the genre, but i'm not willing to give any genre so much space in my backlog.
EU comics are more varied, luckily.
SixMachine
Member
RoninChaos
Member
We get this so much in the comics thread, I find it so odd. Reading 'all' of Batman or Cap is a fools errand - for starters, most of it will be pretty bad. As I say, it's not that the books go on forever at all - there are runs within the series that are complete and satisfying reads. For instance, you could read all of Brubaker's run on Cap and get a massive, sprawling and complete story. Or you could read Remender's current run. They're often informed by the past, but it's really just context, the runs themselves are nearly always complete within themselves.
Things like art styles are subjective of course, but it's not all rippling muscle and grimaces. The Brubaker run on Cap has some really great heavy-brush style art throughout the run, very grounded and well proportioned. Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses - manga has unparalleled senses of speed and movement, and the background work is often incredible technical drawing (Akira still blows my mind with the environment design). But the style is fairly homogenous and IMO fairly odd in the ways that they go about drawing Japanese people.
Western comics have a broader scope of styles available to choose from, and I don't think there's anything in manga similar to someone like JH Williams who is able to play so much with the form of narrative storytelling
Another interesting thing that comics have that is (probably) unique to all of media is these massive collaborative universes that are a feat of accomplishment in and of themselves. Added to by hundreds, thousands of minds over the years, staggeringly complex at times and yet mostly cohesive and accessible. The feeling of history and continuity is unmatched in any other form of storytelling.
Also, I think it's important to note the cultural aspects of being a westerner who is primarily a manga reader. Often times these folks are into lots of other Japanese media too, games, anime, music etc. These people have chosen to immerse themselves in a fairly alien culture and to define themselves pop-culturally through that. In which case it's not really surprising that they don't jive with more traditionally western artforms.
If I could find a slow clap gif, you'd get it for this post.
For me, this was as easy as going to google and typing "What are the best Batman/Superman/Spider-Man/whatever stories?" Pretty much instantly got tons of blog posts and articles that pointed me in the right direction.
I feel like this complaint had far more validity before the internet became so ubiquitous. I can't imagine trying to navigate the X-Men in the 90's as a new reader, and I imagine this is when most here tried getting into cape books and were confused and were turned off.
Marvel as well, with their "All-New" initiative, where comics function more like TV seasons and go back to #1 after a while.
Right now, you could go out, get Jason Aaron's two Thor stories "The God Butcher" and "Godbomb" and never read another Thor story but still get a complete, concise story with a beginning, middle, and end that requires no knowledge of Thor beyond "he's a thunder god with a hammer."
There is no better. Watchmen is maybe equal. Ive read the entire series several times and loved each of them. I hope your library has the latest 10 volumes that contains the 60 issues of the comic plus the two extra books that was given out, all of it is worth reading.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
But why should I have to do some research online and wade through forum posts and wikipedia entries to figure out how to start reading Batman/Superman/Spider-Man/etc?
Then you also come across the problem of conflicting opinions. Some people will tell you to start with story X while others say miniseries Y is a far better jumping off point, but make sure to quickly read Issue #12 of arc Z beforehand.
It's information overload, and overwhelming.
I think my preference in games (JRPGs) carried over to my preference in comics. The culture divide in comics is too big, and some themes are just never seen in western comics. Most of the popular western comics being superheroes and muscled makes them seem very one-dimensional as well.
I just feel there's greater diversity in manga with respect to story and art, though I can't say I've read many western comics. Some examples:
Assassination Classroom
Feng Shen Ji
Nisekoi
Re:Monster
The Gamer
Tower of God
Tsuyokute New Saga
All of these are recent and ongoing mangas I've been reading, and each of them are a bit different from each other, but I doubt I could find the same experience as easily with western comics.
I just feel there's greater diversity in manga with respect to story and art, though I can't say I've read many western comics. Some examples:
Assassination Classroom
Feng Shen Ji
Nisekoi
Re:Monster
The Gamer
Tower of God
Tsuyokute New Saga
All of these are recent and ongoing mangas I've been reading, and each of them are a bit different from each other, but I doubt I could find the same experience as easily with western comics.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
"I don't know where to start!"
"Well you can start here, or here, or here if you like"
"nah fuck thats too confusing I'm out"
That's a weird way to write Preacher.
PhineBuyM3
Member
I don't read neither, but man I love googling images for the females like She-Hulk or Motoko Kusanagi.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Then read independent comics.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Joke post?
Aquamarine
Member
I just said to hell with it and started at the beginning..the VERY beginning of comics like Batman and X-Men.
Found myself getting quite a kick out of the original, creator-led interpretations of those characters and how they progressed through the Silver Age.
Chezzymann
Member
Theres plenty of other types of american comics besides super hero ones. Calvin and Hobbes, for example. In my opinion Bill Watterson's stuff is pretty great. Peanuts is pretty good too. Charles Schulz is awesome.
The research I'm talking about took me all of 10-15 minutes, if that. You make it sound as it's some slog that takes days. It's as easy as looking at what people are suggesting and deciding what seems interesting to you.
You also make it sound as if there is no consensus on what to read. Damn near everyone whose into Batman will tell you to read "Year One" or "Hush." Superman fans pretty much all like "Birthright" and "All-Star Superman." Spider-Man. "Ultimate Spider-Man" is exactly what manga readers keep harping on in that it has one author telling one story for over ten years. Couldn't be simpler.
Basically what just happened. lol
Point is, if you want to read cape comics, it's easier now than it's ever been. It's even easier than it was six years ago when I started.
LOL, in all seriousness that's what I've been seeing a lot of in this thread.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Well it depends. Are all of those 3-4 different starting points completely self-contained, or do they start to branch off and spawn multiple, concurrent story lines to follow with different characters as you progress through them? If I want more on the character from there, then what? Seems like it could get out of hand pretty quickly if that's the case.
At least with most manga, I know I'm getting everything there is to know about the story and universe within the single run of the comic.
If not, then I take back the majority of my complaint, but it still seems silly that I have to consult other people to find out where it's OK to start reading vs where I'll be totally lost/confused.
Chezzymann
Member
I'm finding it really strange how most people in this thread instantly assume "American comics" means "Super hero comics". There's so much more out there.
Delta Assault
Member
Most manga tend to have characters drawn with really big eyes, and small mouths. This looks dumb to me. They look like aliens with their huge goofy eyes. It's unappealing.
Then they'll sometimes turn into super deformed versions of themselves. This also looks dumb to me. I don't really understand why you would want to see super deformed depictions of characters.
They also have very exaggerated expressions and emotional signifiers. Sometimes a character will have a giant teardrop right next to their face. I don't understand why this is necessary to convey emotion.
Most manga are also entirely in black and white, which lacks color. I much prefer comics, which are in color. Color adds a certain something that's aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Note: This does not apply to every single manga ever published in the history of mankind. But it seems to be in the vast majority of mangas.
Then they'll sometimes turn into super deformed versions of themselves. This also looks dumb to me. I don't really understand why you would want to see super deformed depictions of characters.
They also have very exaggerated expressions and emotional signifiers. Sometimes a character will have a giant teardrop right next to their face. I don't understand why this is necessary to convey emotion.
Most manga are also entirely in black and white, which lacks color. I much prefer comics, which are in color. Color adds a certain something that's aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Note: This does not apply to every single manga ever published in the history of mankind. But it seems to be in the vast majority of mangas.
killer rin
Member
Personally I find most American comics to be more superhero oriented and personally find it hard to get invested into the story when it seems like almost everything is getting rewritten all the time. I'm so/so on the art style, some are good, some are bad, but I just prefer the look of Anime-styled themes.
When I read Manga, I generally go for Slice of life, Comedy, Something Fantasy/Sci-fi, maybe a pinch of Action and essentially just a wide variety which I haven't seen much of on the American comic front. I like the stories because they always seem to be heading towards some ending in the future, be it the end of an arc or the end of the series.
When I read Manga, I generally go for Slice of life, Comedy, Something Fantasy/Sci-fi, maybe a pinch of Action and essentially just a wide variety which I haven't seen much of on the American comic front. I like the stories because they always seem to be heading towards some ending in the future, be it the end of an arc or the end of the series.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
This is pretty big sticking point for me as well, and one of the most glaring flaws of superhero comics versus their Japanese analogue, battle shounen:
What a superhero fight typically looks like, from what little I've seen here and there:
Meanwhile, in Japan:
EDIT: With individual frames to make it more clear what I'm talking about:
(Obviously, not every manga artist can be Murata Yuusuke, but I feel that, in general, Japanese artists just have a better grasp of motion than their Western counterparts.)
bullshit. dont pretend murata style is a common thing. ive been reading manga for years and shit like that is a damn rarity
fuck me, this made me laugh way too hard.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
This is a common saying I have heard in this thread that unless its Marvel or DC
(even not as much now) has straight forward, beginning to end stories with different art styles.
Books like Saga does not have superheros or a huge continuity to learn but a weird,
space epic.
Matt Fraction's Hawkeye Is a marvel character has with a long history but is completely unneeded to read and enjoy. Hawkeye's weekend adventures of fixing his tv with Tony Stark, sorting his arrow collection and fighting tracksuit Russians. Bro!
East of West a sci-fi western in a dystopian version of the United States with the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Rat Queens
Some others:
Wild west where there is six guns with magic abilities.
Not all comics are superheroes, buff men or whatever. There is tons of variety even in side of marvel and dc. So keep a open mind.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
Actually it's the same for someone approaching manga too, maybe even moreso since the general public has an idea of who the standard superheroes are. If I was to look down a list of manga I would see a list of fairly gibberish titles, where you might at least know that you want to try reading Spider-Man or something.
Junpei Heat
Junior Member
Because that's the majority of American comics: superheroes. Hell, you can go into the GAF comic thread and superheroes are what mainly discussed with smatterings of Saga,Rat Queens,etc. The average person thinks comics=superheroes, therefore the average person here thinks comics=superheroes.
TetraxShards
Member
Just prefer western storytelling sensibilities. Even if Marvel and DC closed tomorrow, there would still be more good comics than I could ever keep up with. You guys have talked about mangas about winetasting and stuff. That's lovely, but it holds no interest for me.
Honestly, the art has very little to do with it as well. As long as it's not aggressively terrible or Liefield-esque I can cope. Good art does enhance a story. IDW's Transformers titles would not be the same without Nick Roche and Alex Milne, for example.
Honestly, the art has very little to do with it as well. As long as it's not aggressively terrible or Liefield-esque I can cope. Good art does enhance a story. IDW's Transformers titles would not be the same without Nick Roche and Alex Milne, for example.
Never noticed that the batons are dildos, lolEveryone keeps acting like western comics are just Superheroes.
#notallcomics
This.
Though i favor attention to the visual component, and i usually enjoy French/Belgian style comics.
whatsinaname
Member
But why would you find this odd? This problem is very unique to Comics*. There is a clear starting point to almost any other media one wants to get into. You like a band, you listen to their first album. You want to watch the Godfather movies, you watch The Godfather first. You want to watch Breaking Bad, you start at season 1, episode 1. (Of course, you do have exceptions like Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc where the questions of what-should-I-watch arises quite frequently).
Hell, I have read a lot of comics and it is only very recently that I have started to read a lot of superhero comics. (Marvel Unlimited). There is definitely a mental barrier to entry for superhero comics.
That's just volume 1. There are 9 more after that. (All brilliant).
Edit: * Superhero Comics
The majority of comic runs - that is, when a writer comes onto a book and until he/she leaves - are their own thing with a beginning, middle, and end. Are they a part of a larger continuity and informed by what came before? Sure. But does that mean that you need to know everything about a given character to enjoy one writer's run on a character? Nope.
The only X-Men run I've ever read to completion is Grant Morrison's "New X-Men." The only knowledge of the X-Men I had prior to is what I gleaned from cultural osmosis. Followed it no problem, got a complete and satisfying story that didn't depend on outside continuity and explained any context I needed in its own pages.
People are also discounting lesser known characters who don't have as much content as the big guys like Superman and Iron Man and are far easier to navigate. Characters like Animal Man, Amethyst, Iron Fist, Nextwave, The Runaways, etc.
The basic answer is it all depends on how much you want to read. If you just want to read one story about a character and then stop, you can do that. If you want to jump in and read one run by a specific creator, you can do that. If you want to follow the character for years and years, you can do that too. All depends on what you want from your reading experience.
I can't say I have met anyone who actually does this. Sure, you'll probably want to go back and pick up their earlier stuff, but how many people hear a Chili Peppers single on the radio and run out to buy their 1984 self titled album instead of the album that song is from?
Also, comics are not that unique. You are just comparing them to things that are much different in format. How may General Hosiptal viewers have seen all 13k episodes? How many of the people watching Skyfall saw all 20 something bond movies? How many people who have watched a Trek show or movie has actually watched every season and movie of Star trek?
EDIT: I guess you mentioned Star Trek. Point is, long for media of any type has people starting in the middle. It's not just comics.
captainnapalm
Member
I've often suspected the reason a lot of Americans love Japanese culture so much is that it gives them a foreign and exotic form of entertainment to lose themselves in. Most countries consume American entertainment, and there is something at least faintly exotic about it for them. But Americans maybe can't lose themselves in their own stuff as much, and so turn to Japanese entertainment for that.
Honestly, I struggle to explain the interest some of these characters hold for them other than through this explanation - particularly when it comes to gaming. Not so much manga, because I assume there must at least be some strong characters there.
Honestly, I struggle to explain the interest some of these characters hold for them other than through this explanation - particularly when it comes to gaming. Not so much manga, because I assume there must at least be some strong characters there.
TetraxShards
Member
It's almost exactly like Doctor Who. You can start from the start of almost any Doctor. The common jump-on point is the 9th Doctor, but you have fans that started with The Christmas Invasion or The Eleventh Hour. More still will start with the upcoming Deep Breath. Once that's exhausted, there's always the classic series. And once that's done you have the option of Big Finish stuff, the New Adventures novels, etc. Stories don't have an expiration date, you're free to come back to them as you wish.
Pretty much the only Big Two franchise I am a consistent reader of is Avengers, and even then I've only read every story since 1998 or so (I used to read Avengers United and Avengers Unconquered, the UK reprint titles, I transferred to US stuff a few years ago when I went digital). Everything else I dip in and out of. When you learn to follow creators and not characters, it gets much easier much faster.
Pops Maellard
Member
This isn't an accurate statement at all. There's a huge amount of diversity in western comics regardless of any perceptions you may have of it being dominated by musclebound two dimensional superheroes.
:|
Western comics are far more visually varied than what you've been reading.
To a manga reader, saying "you don't need to read all Batman storylines" is like telling an ASOIAF reader that they don't need to read all the books, or all the perspectives.
Yeah, I guess I can skip the Reek chapters because they weren't to my taste, and AFFC was dull as shit, but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. I think it reflects poorly on a series if people insist that you skip this or that book, or chapter, or whatever.
This is definitely not the norm in the world of serialized storytelling, except in one medium: Fanfiction. Only in fandom is it absolutely necessary to sift through mountains of shit to get to the gold nuggets, even though all fanfiction for a series utilize similar assets and settings.
It is actually really bizarre how many of you so readily pick and choose what you read out of the entire "Superman" bibliography, despite being self-proclaimed fans of the character. I mean I guess if I only picked all the good scenes involving Naruto, I would enjoy Naruto more as well.
But I don't, because it doesn't really make sense to me whatsoever.
Yeah, I guess I can skip the Reek chapters because they weren't to my taste, and AFFC was dull as shit, but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. I think it reflects poorly on a series if people insist that you skip this or that book, or chapter, or whatever.
This is definitely not the norm in the world of serialized storytelling, except in one medium: Fanfiction. Only in fandom is it absolutely necessary to sift through mountains of shit to get to the gold nuggets, even though all fanfiction for a series utilize similar assets and settings.
It is actually really bizarre how many of you so readily pick and choose what you read out of the entire "Superman" bibliography, despite being self-proclaimed fans of the character. I mean I guess if I only picked all the good scenes involving Naruto, I would enjoy Naruto more as well.
But I don't, because it doesn't really make sense to me whatsoever.
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