Jimquisition (July 21) - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
Not really. I liked the Xbox 360. But one significant difference between the 360 and the Xbone is that they didn't lie their way through the entire launch period.
When I say that I hope the Xbone dies I mean I hope that everything at MS it represents dies. Sheer contempt for the consumer and a palpable cynicism permeating every aspect of the product.
I'd rather see that as well, which is why I even entertain buying the system at 299 now. But the thing is it's not a choice. We don't have to choose between one or the other, and there's plenty of other consoles right now where we don't. They can do both, at the same time. And they should do both, as a responsibility toward treating their customers legitimately right. Because if they don't understand what the problem was in the first place, and they show they don't by hoisting more bullshit on top of the 180s, then there's no real argument that they changed. Being forced to change is not the same as actually understanding why there was a need for change, and both are essential going forward.
Jimmyfenix
Member
Weird i thought we were in the thread Jimquisition (July 21) - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine
Discussing the video in hand.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Just watched it. I agree although the stuff about requiring an apology was a bit silly. I'd rather they just got back on track with the games, which they seem to be doing. Their pr is the least of my concerns. Fuck everything about Kinect, that is where the real harm is. Early adopters that weren't really interested in it got screwed and we might have got something better without that part of their vision. Canning it in the way they did was for the best but it is a bit insulting after their claims of it being integral and only proves how mistaken they were.
Oh and thats a really baity title, but maybe thats what he was going for.
Oh and thats a really baity title, but maybe thats what he was going for.
He can't
Metallix87
Member
The press conference was brought up in the course of the discussion. Is it now wrong to discuss that?
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Where did I say that?
What I said was they bought the xbone with Kinect bundled in because they looked at it and decided it was worth however many dollars. Some people bought it expecting to use Kinect, others bought it knowing that they would never plug Kinect it at all. But everybody who bought it did so because they felt it was worth paying for. Would some of those people have preferred a Kinectless SKU? Of course, but they still felt the bundle with mandatory kinect was worth the asking price.
At no point did I say everybody that bought the original Xbone package did so because they wanted Kinect, hence your question about Kinectless bundles is completely irrelevant.
It references their TV studios, which really have only even been a factor in E3, and not much else. The theme of the video is overpromising things they couldn't deliver. Those promises take place at E3.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
He's not saying those are bad things. He's saying that MS failed at their vision of it and their marketing speak trying to get praise for doing what they should have done from the start.
I'm noticing a catch-22 in the reasoning here. Not regarding the Kinect inclusion (which is deservedly frustrating for both buyers and developers), but basically the rest of the topic: A company was going to have policies/features that people were critical of. They never implemented them, because of that reaction. Why should they apologize for something that never occurred, and doing what their audiences indicated they preferred? If someone decides not do something bad, that's not grounds for them to apologize for a "180."
No of course them offering the Kinectless SKU isn't bad.
They were saying for months on end that it's a gamechanger, literally so essential that it has to be in the box. One of the three pillars of the Xbox One. They spent half their reveal demonstrating it, they assured it would always be packed in.
But whoops, let's just take it out because our console is fucking tanking in sales.
It's not a move made to give consumers choice, it's a marketing line they used to salvage a sinking console.
But what is your friggin point? What is anyone's point then?
What exactly do you want? Words are enough. Actions aren't enough. The head of Xbox Devision's every statement of intent is not enough.
No one is sucking Microsoft's teet here. But apparently liking positive change is means people are "brand loyalists in denial". And God forbid anyone praise the things where they 1-up their closest competitor (OS Updates, App Ecosystem)
The Xbone might not have launched with those policies in place but their actions had very real consequences. They basically constantly insulted the intelligence of consumers over a few months every time they were questioned on it.
Humans are not, I think, generally mere consequentialists. Intent matters. You can still be culpable for things you plan to do, even if you never actually do them.
uncledonnie
Banned
Dude is basically old man yelling at the sky at this point. They changed directions in ways that the majority wanted. Just move on. There is all new leadership pretty much from top to bottom. Continue to judge them based on what they do and if you don't like the system, don't buy it. Of course you should be cautious towards MS just like any corporation -- their primary motivation is to get your money.
Grok4Spock
Member
The third console curse... A self-inflicted wound.
Uno Venova
Banned
If he didn't actually say this, why would you come to that conclusion.
Metallix87
Member
Sideshow Bob: "I am presently incarcerated, imprisoned for a crime I did not even commit. "Attempted murder," now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for "attempted chemistry?""
The same can be said with absolute sales parity, 2012 was a really shitty year where everyone more or less rested on their laurels as far as that E3 was concerned.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Off the top of my head, Sunset Overdrive, Forza Horizon 2, Ori and the Blind Forest, Master Chief Collection all exclusives out this year. Plus Killer Instinct season 2 was shown before the conference and I think they talked about Dance Central, can't remember if they showed it or not though. Probably forgotten a game or two as well, this idea that their conference was all 2016 CGI trailers is as true to reality as the perception that last year's conference was TV, TV, TV.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Even if Microsoft apologized, it probably wouldn't change anyone's opinion about the problems they've had with the Xbone so far. And really, unless you're a Halo fan, they aren't giving us any reasons to pick up their console now that they have reversed course on the sticking points. The PS4 and Wii U still seem to offer better value, and it doesn't appear that is likely to change in the future.
Shogun_of_Truth
Member
I agree with it.
Despite the PS4 controller being bit more comfortable, the X1 controller has better rumble, triggers, stick layout and build quality.(IMO) the DS4's shoddy rubber sticks kinda ruin its other positives a bit.
I do think that all three console makes hit the ball out of the park with the controllers though. Can't think of another gen where I liked all of the controller offerings.
He's not hating on the product, he's hating on Microsoft doing the bare minimum (effectively turning it into a PS4) and seeking praise for it, it's in the same vein as praising Sony for doing absolutely nothing as far as DRM was concerned.
And pretty much echoes the Plants versus Zombies episode.
PhoenixFyre
Member
I think I summed it up nicely in my tag.
I want them to be held accountable by gamers, and by-and-large they are being held accountable based on sales data. They told me they had a product for me if I wanted to game on my ship during deployment. That kind of attitude makes you dead to me, no matter how many 180's you do.
Ninja Scooter
Member
We are only discussing that because people seem to be incapable of having a discussion without bringing in these "fanboy" allegiances. WELL SONY DID THIS AND NINTENDO DID THAT SO... Who cares?
That seems to be one of the points of this discussion and Jim's video: Don't ever give these corporations the benefit of the doubt. All these based-Spencer! and based-Shu! memes are funny until people start to believe them. Hold these companies accountable.
Jimmyfenix
Member
blankempathy
Member
Stop talking about the kinect like it was an optional item when it launched. It wasn't bundled in. It was a core part of the system required for the xbox one to function according to microsoft. And thats the problem right there. That the kinect would be required for the xbox one. That there was no kinectless sku on the horizon for people to wait a year or two for. The kinect was the xbox one as far as microsoft would let you believe. So when 7 months later the kinectless version came out yes some people did get screwed. The people who didn't care about kinect but bought the system with it because they thought there was getting around it. That you had to buy the kinect sku in order to play xbox one games. There was no optional choice. Either buy the kinect xbox one in order to play the games or don't buy one. So yes no one forced them to buy the system but at that point in time if you wanted to play xbox one games you bought a kinect xbox one console. Thats the idea microsoft was selling which turned out to be a lie and plenty of people who only bought an xbox one console to play games and not bother with the kinect crap did get screwed because they would of paid 400$ had they the option to. But microsoft said there was no option nor would they lead you to believe that there ever would be and thats the problem right there.
Because that's not the actual argument being made.
Jim makes a nuanced argument. He says you had a company like Microsoft who came out and made a lot of claims. Xbox One is the future of entertainment. Here's our new TV shows. Here's our Kinect, which is an inseparable part of our system. Every step of the way laced with deceptions toward gamers about everything from intent to their system power on top of it.
Many, many fans purchased the system on the back of those lies. I didn't want that shit, but I cannot tell you how many Xbox fan NeoGAFers I debated with who told me that these were features they purchased the system for.
Yet, what happened in the end? Well, we find out Kinect is perfectly able to be separated from the system - and what's more, they announced the most laughably thin lineup of legitimate Kinect products ever, showing even they don't have faith in this shit. So, from the start, people who thought Kinect was in there because it was going to change the way games were played were misled, and they spent an extra 100 dollars on what should have been advertised as a glorified voice command box. They should have been told from the start how half-assed Microsoft was going to handle it, and told from the start that was what Kinect was going to end up as. And now that it is changed and removed, Microsoft should have told these fans that they apologized for misleading them as to the importance of Kinect, and they clearly didn't invest the money they should have in creating a compelling game portfolio for it.
We find out TV is all but dead in the water now, a few tufts of original programming going to be shat out and then disappear in the wind. People who heard TV TV TV and thought this was a pivotal part of the system, thought that was one of the reasons they were investing in Gold, are now left with a shell of that whole strategy. Once again Microsoft could have come out and said we're sorry for promising this stuff, it just wasn't a sound business plan, etc... well, I didn't feel any of their statements were particularly apologetic.
It's the same down the complete list of things. They 180d, but they didn't understand why they were 180-ing, and even blamed fans at times (oh, we just didn't get their vision. Fuck you we didn't get your vision, Microsoft.) Every single change they made, even when positive, doesn't mean they shouldn't also be apologizing for all the deceptions that went along with why they had to change in the first place.
I don't know why consumers think that because businesses want to make money that they don't have a right for these things. They changed, but they can also apologize. They can do both at the same time. And they should have.
Isn't them changing the system pretty much the same as apologizing? I mean, these companies don't have to change anything. If they wanted to keep it the way they announced it, they could have. But through customer feedback they determined that it would be better (both financially and for the consumer) to change certain aspects. To me, that's about the same as apologizing for it.
Also, the system was never SOLD with the old DRM in tact. It's not like Microsoft had even received a dime yet for there system from any consumer. The changes were done before it was sold... so it's hard to fault it. This isn't like Sim City where they required an online connection and then came back later and changed it after people had already spent lots of money and frustration dealing with the game.
So basically the attitude that didn't exist after a month...
From the guy who was pushed out almost immediately...
And you admit that absolutely nothing they could do will change your mind no matter how positive or progressive.
Gotchya. I just wished everyone else was being as intellectually honest about their biases as you.
The guy in the OP video, and the people on this board are pretty much why I stopped gaming around the time of the Xbox One announcement.
I looked at this guy in a fedora and black leather gloves ranting about videogames and I thought to myself "This whole gaming world is filled with childish tacky shit and I want nothing to do with it".
For every genius moment like The Last of Us or Bioshock, there are 1000 people arguing about how the Xbox One was a "betrayal", and hoards of people who reinforce the stereotype that video gamers are socially inept nerds arguing about how one company "screwed" them in some meaningless way.
This industry is in desperate need of a company to come in and say "fuck these people" and then build something brilliant without listening to "fans"
I looked at this guy in a fedora and black leather gloves ranting about videogames and I thought to myself "This whole gaming world is filled with childish tacky shit and I want nothing to do with it".
For every genius moment like The Last of Us or Bioshock, there are 1000 people arguing about how the Xbox One was a "betrayal", and hoards of people who reinforce the stereotype that video gamers are socially inept nerds arguing about how one company "screwed" them in some meaningless way.
This industry is in desperate need of a company to come in and say "fuck these people" and then build something brilliant without listening to "fans"
I'd rather you didn't incorrectly sum up my opinion like that, considering I already told you I bought a PS4 and don't like MS and don't own an X1.
The people who were talking about it? Geez.
Swass
Member
Why do you assume if Microsoft exited that Sony would have a monopoly? They would still have competition from Nintendo, as well as competition from PC, Tablets, and micro consoles. Sony has showed in the past with the PS1 and PS2 that they handle being the market leader quite well and gaming thrived during those times.
Why does that make any difference at all? Literally, why is this a bad thing?
"oh it doesn't count because all they are doing us giving people what they wanted." that is basically what you're saying.
People voted with their wallet and it worked. These companies never make decisions out of kindness and their morals. They make decisions based on what will earn them money. They are businesses and act as such.
mightynine
Member
I'm sorry, but your own link said the future of that show is murky, and right now, they are only in TALKS with Showtime. Talks can wind up with nothing to show for it.
Metallix87
Member
Actually, the opposite is true, since their leadership status resulted in major mistakes and arrogance with regards to both the PS3 and the PSP.
blankempathy
Member
umm then the ps3 launch happened....remember? The success went to their head.
you are a fan, and you are a consumer. this post is basically 'please, companies, ignore me.' If you want to take your voice out of the chorus, you be my guest. The rest of us spend fucking money on these products and demand that we are treated with respect. This isn't a charity. This is US giving hundreds of dollars to buy one of their products. We have a right to be heard, and they need to know they should change should the clamor be loud enough.
Ninja Scooter
Member
What is your opinion? That Sony's lackluster E3 press conference was equal to MS' various fuckups and backtracking/180s? In what way? Because E3 represents "broken promises" How? When did Sony 'promise' anything would be at E3? What promises did they make at E3 '14 that haven't come to fruition here a whole 30 days later? What exactly was your point?
Haven't watched it, but maybe they did a 180 because the original vision was terrible. Microsoft realized it couldn't be shoved down peoples throats, the original Xbox one would have been the biggest flop ever. Who asked for TV shows exclusive to a game console? Used games are important regardless of how controversial they are. Taking the kinect out of the box was the best decision that brand has made in years.
Caayn
Member
And he would be one of the first folks to start screaming at MS for not doing anything about the sales, or for not doing something for the "gamers". What did he want MS to do, to get on their knees and beg for forgives?
Use GAF source
Original thread.
No, that is not my opinion. I literally told you this already in this post here. Geez.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122007373&postcount=369
If you actually care to know, read the rest of my posts. I don't know if you read any of them honestly. I'm not going to endlessly repeat myself for you. It's annoying to me, and to everyone else that has to read the same points posted again and again.
MS is showing plenty of respect to the consumers' wallet.
Kittenwithbeer
Banned
Jim didn't hate the Xbox One from the get go though. Everyone was open to Microsoft's new console. There were rumors going around that it was going to be always-online, Kinect forced-in. Microsoft didn't comment on the rumors prior to the announcement so the internet went wild.
Then Microsoft finally does show off the console and it's what everyone feared:
Always online, Kinect mandatory, etc. The most anti-consumer features. This all the height of the NSA scandal too I believe.
So no, Jim didn't hate the product until Microsoft unveiled that their product was actually that anti-consumer. Who can blame him? I can't support a console that does the exact opposite of what I want in my device. No forced webcam, no always-online, etc. And I ended up choosing to not support it and I'm still too upset to consider getting an Xbox One at the moment.
I'm not asking for an apology, but I'm not going to be so quick to forget Microsoft trying to take away my rights as a consumer and force terrible DRM on me. I just want a device that plays video games; whether I'm online or not. I'll go where the games are, not the TV entertainment stuff.