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[sublimit]

The most frustrating thing about the early Xbox One was how many journalists were ready to lay down and fucking take it without protest. "This is the future, this is how it is, PS4 is likely DRM locked too." Thankfully consumers didn't suck it down and changes were made.

Yup and that's another big problem with this industry and it also extends to journalists trying to create too much hype over a product for their own (and the site's/magazine's they work for) reasons.

 

[Xando]

No one has lost a dime becuase of Xbox DRM.

And what guarantee do i have that they wont try again 2 years from now when i already bought my XB1?

 

[Shinta]

Should Xbox even bother with next year's E3??

Sony's conference was an embarrassment this year.

The fact that this wasn't called out more aggressively is due to people giving them a pass because they are still rose-tinted from last year.

That's the danger of focusing too much on the past. It's worth remembering, but you run the risk of falling into the same blindness if you're not consistently critical and fair in your criticism.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

That tie is a penis

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Not shockingly, there are people here missing the point.

Yes, Microsoft (finally) started to do the right things with their console, but only after it became clear that each and every thing they did wrong was causing the console to completely tank. It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart, or because they believe that's how a console should be handled. In fact, they quietly seem to feel the opposite; that their original vision is still the best and that consumers either didn't understand it or didn't appreciate it. We (the consumers) are the bad guys here in their eyes.

The fact that they don't seem to have any genuine remorse or understanding of their own wrong-doings when it comes to the Xbox One means they're all the more likely to commit similar mistakes in the future.

This is fairly important to remember because it will tell you that people not being supportive of MS or willing to let bygones be bygones isn't necessarily about baseless criticism, but that if MS really believes that their previous strategies weren't necessarily bad, how long until they try and bring them back in some way?

Sony's conference was an embarrassment this year.

The fact that this wasn't called out more aggressively is due to people giving them a pass because they are still rose-tinted from last year.

That's the danger of focusing too much on the past. It's worth remembering, but you run the risk of falling into the same blindness if you're not consistently critical and fair in your criticism.

Called out for what? Having an uneventful E3 press conference? Like that matters?

 

[remnant]

Not watching the video, not worth my time. Doesn't really matter, sure his points are fantastic and delivered in a wry british accent. Woohoo.

Please stop personifying companies.

Microsoft is not trying to screw you over. Sony is not trying to lavish you with warm fuzzies. These are not individual entities, they are conglomerate corporations ran by individuals. Some individuals may have the best intentions, some may have the worst intentions. A company can have a vision, defined by a subset of employees or board members. But it's due to the actions of leadership (a handful of individuals) at said company that said vision gets enacted (however imperfect).

Feel free to take sides, feel free to argue. I don't really care.

Please stop acting like Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo are your best buddy and love you and have your back. And that Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo are creepers that are out to get your money and never support their console.

Use this handy guide:

Console Maker - A company that wants to make money by creating a platform, selling it to as many customers as possible however they possibly can, and then license/monetize the crap out of it.

Consumer - A person that would like to purchase a product that fits their needs and budget. See also: Consumer whore.

I don't care if a company refers to me as "human filth" internally (or even externally) as long as the customer service is satisfactory, the product is what I want and the price is right.

Which is not to say that I don't care what a company says and does, far from it. If Sony started firing gay employees because they found religion, guess what I'm not buying anymore. If Microsoft starts ritually sacrificing babies to pray for a fruitful Windows development cycle guess what I'm not buying anymore. It's also painful I need to include this caveat but the churlish pedants around the internet love to straw man stuff.

If people did this, Jim wouldn't have a job.

 

[Kuni]

No one has lost a dime becuase of Xbox DRM

Microsoft did.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Do you really not get it? Its bad to sell your product with some expensive overpriced add on/option saying its required and then half a year later sell a cheaper version without said "required" option. Consoles are 5+ year investments. People bought the kinect sku of xbox one thinking that it was going to be a staple part of the xbox one and would be mandatory in the foreseeable future only to find out that it wasn't and some of them could of saved 100+ dollars because some people simply wanted to play xbox one games. I'm tired of explaining it. If you don't understand the issue then oh well.

As I said, you can still use voice commands to navigate the UI right? You can navigate TV channels and use Kinect to skype chat with family and friends right? All the stuff that was advertised still works right?

You look at the Xbone box with Kinect bundled and you think:

A) Yeah, that's worth it = You buy it

B) That's not worth it = You don't buy it.

Removing Kinect from the box 6 months later or whatever it was doesn't retroactively invalidate that initial value judgement.

 

[MaximusPayne]

Console war thread?

 

[Jimmyfenix]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the video, so here's a summary for those who keep jumping to conclusions or are just saying stupid shit that have nothing to do with what Jim's actually trying to say.

What Jim is not saying

• The Xbox One in its current state isn't a good console or doesn't have games et cetera.
• The Xbox One isn't worth buying.
• People shouldn't be happy with the current state of the console.
• The Xbox One should die off.

What Jim is saying

• MS started out horribly, treated its consumers like shit and blamed them for their own shortcomings. Even now they constantly lie about hardware power.
• People shouldn't just immediately perform fellatio on them for deciding not to treat us like total shit anymore.
• The original vision of the One and the current state is significantly different. The original vision is thankfully dead.
• Devs/Publishers/Industry should try to treat the consumer with respect from the get go and not lie to them and try to deceive them.
• We shouldn't be thankful for them backpedaling and doing the bare minimum, they should be thankful that we still support them now after all they've done.

Don't treat people like shit. It's literally all the vid is about. How is that so hard to understand?

Again for the new page

 

[BigDug13]

Because he's not them? I'm not sure what you're asking, exactly. If you're asking why isn't the entire company following his lead, I don't know. If you're asking why the other execs stated their message about the future, it's because I believe a lot of them truly saw some of their decisions as important to the future of entertainment.

I wasn't really asking a question, I was demonstrating that just because in one interview Major Nelson said "we made mistakes", that doesn't mean the rest of the company isn't still treating us like we are entitled gamers who just didn't get the properly massaged message.

 

[Black Mantis]

And I understand that, but let's face it, the X1 was designed from the ground up to be a completely different machine. Now MS is desperately trying to re-focus it as a game machine first, but...it's still the same box, built to be some sort of all-in-one living room everything.

While I don't want the system to die, is it that hard to understand that the system is somewhat pointless now?

Kinect is now a fractured market. No one knows how Quantum Break will be now with the entertainment stuff out the window. Hell, no one even knows where the Halo show is going to air and on what.

Spencer can sit up there and wear gaming t-shirts and push the game narrative as much as he wants, but he's doing it because MS has to - they've got nothing left. That's not making a decision that's best for the consumer, it's trying their damndest to not lose their ass on this thing.

How have the changes rendered it pointless? I can still play the same games as before, plus the upcoming releases still appeal to many. Those of us happy with Kinect can still use it, whilst anyone planning on buying an Xbox, can get a bundle with Kinect.

Quantum Break is unaffected .

Halo: Nightfall is included in the MCC and Microsoft are in talks with Showtime to co-produce the Spielberg tv series, which is scheduled for late 2015. Link

 

[Vast.]

Nobody's saying you should sell it. Maybe you should calm down, your feelings have obviously been hurt and you are reacting with strawmen.

What're you talking about? He was responding to a guy saying that "brand loyalist that are in denial need to wise up".

It's a pretty stupid thing to say. And maybe you should check your own biases because you seem pretty riled up in this topic.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

This has to be the fastest moving Jimquisition thread of all time.

 

[phanphare]

Hardly considering most of what was said was pretty much bullshit.

can you cite specific examples of this "bullshit"?

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Difficult to disagree on any major points here. Completely pointless console, sold through lies and trickery. Hope it dies a quick death.

I want it to survive and thrive, despite not wanting to buy one. Contrary to many on this board, I don't think an environment where Sony is the only player will usher in some sort of gaming golden age. It'd just result in 2005-7 Sony (or 2010-13 MS for that matter) all over again.

 

[remnant]

And what guarantee do i have that they wont try again 2 years from now when i already bought my XB1?

There is no guarantee about anything 2 years in the future?

What is your guarantee Sony will never do a Similar DRM plan in the future. This is the company that released a DRM-handheld to the market, to REAL people asking for REAL money

 

[Amir0x]

Again for the new page

I would add to the "Jim is saying" category that Microsoft needed to have seriously apologized for and admitted to the mistakes they made, instead of trying constantly to spin the U-Turns into some glamorous favor for gamers.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

Sony payed their price last gen as well thanks to their arrogance but they never tried to pull the BS that MS tried to pull with the XB1.
And as the above picture shows at least Kaz and the other higher ups had the decency to apologize to their consumers for the hacked PSN incident. MS not only never tried to apologize for their lies but they were blaming the actual consumers for not accepting the XB1 as it was originally meant to be.

Because the Xbox One came with the original policies included right? Because they chose to make a new SKU with no Kinect. Because everything MS did is at the same level of hacking millions of accounts, delaying it's fix and not even encrypting their userbase credit cards?

That's why you want them apologizing? This is ridiculous. I actually agree with Jim, though I think he's overreacting a little bit but the way you're talking makes look like Sony is the white shining armor knight that we need.


Microsoft still treats us like morons, that's for sure, but don't even compare the PSN hack to what MS TRIED to do with the Xbox One. One happened, the other was ditched based on feedback.

 

[Shinta]

Called out for what? Having an uneventful E3 press conference? Like that matters?

For having barely any first party presence at all, for consistently trying to push indie games on Vita and PS4 like they replace the lack of great AAA games, for pushing TV crap, for not updating the IGC on PS+.

For being complacent with their victory and not pushing to do more for consumers. That's exactly what happened to MS, and it happened to Sony in the past too.

If we're talking about companies overpromising things in this episode, Sony still didn't show TLG, anything from Sony Santa Monica, nothing from Shadow of the Beast, Drive Club still not out yet, The Order still barely showing any gameplay, and on and on. But they showed some artwork from a TV show not even close to being ready yet.

 

[Anfang]

Hardly considering most of what was said was pretty much bullshit.

Explain what is untrue then.

 

[BigDug13]

How have the changes rendered it pointless? I can still play the same games as before, plus the upcoming releases still appeal to many. Those of us happy with Kinect can still use it, whilst anyone planning on buying an Xbox, can get a bundle with Kinect.

Quantum Break is unaffected .

Halo: Nightfall is included in the MCC and Microsoft are in talks with Showtime to co-produce the Spielberg tv series, which is scheduled for late 2015. Link

But that's not what Microsoft presented us at the reveal. Harmonix got screwed by the 180. TV studios got screwed by the 180. It's great that you're happy with your machine, but there has been a lot of collateral damage in the industry in their shift away from their original vision.

 

[Armaros]

Because the Xbox One came with the original policies included right? Because they chose to make a new SKU with no Kinect. Because everything MS did is at the same level of hacking millions of accounts, delaying it's fix and not even encrypting their userbase credit cards?

That's why you want them apologizing? This is ridiculous. I actually agree with Jim, though I think he's overreacting a little bit but the way you're talking makes look like Sony is the white shining armor knight that we need.


Microsoft still treats us like morons, that's for sure, but don't even compare the PSN hack to what MS TRIED to do with the Xbox One. One happened, the other was ditched based on feedback.

PRISM, that is what Microsoft has done and they were one of the early ones.

Or did everyone forget in the process of SonyToo?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

It's certainly not the 'Xbox 3' I had hoped for and some big mistakes were made. However it's still a pretty cool system in general, with some nice features and no doubt great games to come.

Just let Klobb design the next one

 

[scitek]

Corporations always want credit for something they supposed to do. And unfortunately people are all too willing to give it to them.

It's kind of like how people were praising Sony for not having the One's DRM on the PS4. I wasn't praising them for that, they didn't do anything other than what I expected of them. I did praise them for hitting $399, though.

 

[inm8num2]

The problem with the backpedaling is that it is almost always preceded by dogmatic defense of whatever the issue is. They should listen to the feedback from the beginning, rather than change their mind later on because of monetary reasons. That's fine as is, but I think Jim is warning people against giving Microsoft too much credit for something they should have done by respecting their audience and customers.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I would add to the "Jim is saying" category that Microsoft needed to have seriously apologized for and admitted to the mistakes they made, instead of trying constantly to spin the U-Turns into some glamorous favor for gamers.

At this point the communities are having to almost advise them on how to handle things.

 

[GoaThief]

Would like to see Jimothy's evidence that Microsoft are acting heroic and lording it up as that is what his rant seems to boil down to. He hasn't presented any at all for this, but has plenty for their old missteps. That is pretty telling to me.

Personally I think it's a case of Jim preaching to the choir of sorts, he knows his audience (which aren't Xbox fans on the whole) and will pander to them. I haven't seen Microsoft doing the things he has specifically accused them of in this video but I have seen plenty of reactions from around the internet (including my own) which are praising the new direction they've taken with the Xbox brand. Unless I am mistaken it seems Mr. Sterling has misinterpreted this praise for something it isn't, whether this is intentional or not is something I cannot possibly know.

It would be good to see his evidence and further elaboration.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

And what guarantee do i have that they wont try again 2 years from now when i already bought my XB1?

None. Just like I have no guarantee that amazon won't look up my home address before sending their drones round to fling faecal matter at my bedroom window.

It's a sacrifice I make every time I order anything from them.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

We shouldn't be thankful for them backpedaling and doing the bare minimum, they should be thankful that we still support them now after all they've done.

this, this^this

Incredible that anybody could even start thinking something like "thanks Microsoft" for the fact that they U-turned on everything, they basically destroyed their reputation but still some people think they're somehow ok because there are good games on the Xbox One and it is a nice console overall: good games and nice console is really the minumumest of minimums from a game console maker.

And what baffles me is the fact that the Xbox One could have been a true revolution, they simply needed to copy from Steam the good things, and not just the bad things of a full digital platform + carrying over all the other legacy bads from the game console market.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I just bought a Wii U to complete my new generation collection. I can honestly say that Microsoft has the weakest future to me as a gamer when it comes to upcoming content. I have no desire for the upcoming Mastechief collection. Sunset Overdrive is all that I find appealing as far as triple A content is concerned for 2014. They need lots of exclusive games and quickly. It is downright pathetic.

 

[Vast.]

And what guarantee do i have that they wont try again 2 years from now when i already bought my XB1?

What guarantee do you have that Sony won't infuse many of their DRM policies into the PS4 which they hold specific patents for?

You're using a pretty lame logical fallacy.

I can honestly say that Microsoft has the weakest future to me as a gamer when it comes to upcoming content. I have no desire for the upcoming Mastechief collection. Sunset Overdrive is all that I find appealing as far as triple A content is concerned for 2014.

Can you point out what exactly is major upcoming Triple A content by Sony for 2014? And how exactly Microsoft is "pathetic" in comparison?

It's one thing to have opinions and preferences but blatantly trolling seems more pathetic.

 

[Anfang]

At this point the communities are having to almost advise them on how to handle things.

Shit, an honest apology about fuck ups would do so much instead of trying to spin and make excuses;. Making excuses just makes people dislike you even more. Common sense is absent with these companies.

 

[twobear]

I want it to survive and thrive, despite not wanting to buy one. Contrary to many on this board, I don't think an environment where Sony is the only player will usher in some sort of gaming golden age. It'd just result in 2005-7 Sony (or 2010-13 MS for that matter) all over again.

I don't think that would be ideal either, but then again, a situation where one of the major players can lie consistently and deliver a substandard product and yet never suffer any kind of financial backlash would represent serious market failure too.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

For having barely any first party presence at all, for consistently trying to push indie games on Vita and PS4 like they replace the lack of great AAA games, for pushing TV crap, for not updating the IGC on PS+.

For being complacent with their victory and not pushing to do more for consumers. That's exactly what happened to MS, and it happened to Sony in the past too.

If we're talking about companies overpromising things in this episode, Sony still didn't show TLG, anything from Sony Santa Monica, nothing from Shadow of the Beast, Drive Club still not out yet, The Order still barely showing any gameplay, and on and on. But they showed some artwork from a TV show not even close to being ready yet.

Sony didn't promise any of those things. Just because you got hyped up and thought they'd show everything under the sun isn't their fault. And even still, promising to show a game and then not showing it is not nearly on the same level as trying to institute DRM policies, or promising a focus on things like Kinect and tv programming and selling a $500 partially on the back of that, and then removing all that shit 6 months later. It's a silly comparison. If you want to call out Sony because you don't like the games they show or are focusing on at their E3 press conference (as if that matters) then don't buy their system. The media and enthusiasts had a fairly mild reaction to Sony's E3 so I don't get where this "pass" is coming from.

Either you don't see the difference or don't want to see the difference.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Personally I think it's a case of Jim preaching to the choir of sorts, he knows his audience (which aren't Xbox fans on the whole) and will pander to them. I haven't seen Microsoft doing the things he has specifically accused them of in this video but I have seen plenty of reactions from around the internet (including my own) which are praising the new direction they've taken with the Xbox brand. Unless I am mistaken it seems Mr. Sterling has misinterpreted this praise for something it isn't, whether this is intentional or not is something I cannot possibly know.

Do you have any idea how much the guy shat on the PS3? I think that underlined claim is bogus, and flat out wrong.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

PRISM, that is what Microsoft has done

True. If anything they should apologize for that but that means lots of other companies should do it too.

 

[RurouniZel]

Corporations always want credit for something they supposed to do. And unfortunately people are all too willing to give it to them.

Reminds me of that one Chris Rock skit.

"I ain't never been to jail!"

"What do you want? A cookie? You're not SUPPOSED to go to jail!"

 

[Ozium]

Not watching the video, not worth my time. Doesn't really matter, sure his points are fantastic and delivered in a wry british accent. Woohoo.

what a brilliant way to start a discussion... also corporations are individuals in the eyes of the law. this is why you can sue a corporation as its own entity.

 

[Metallix87]

For having barely any first party presence at all, for consistently trying to push indie games on Vita and PS4 like they replace the lack of great AAA games, for pushing TV crap, for not updating the IGC on PS+.

For being complacent with their victory and not pushing to do more for consumers. That's exactly what happened to MS, and it happened to Sony in the past too.

If we're talking about companies overpromising things in this episode, Sony still didn't show TLG, anything from Sony Santa Monica, nothing from Shadow of the Beast, Drive Club still not out yet, The Order still barely showing any gameplay, and on and on. But they showed some artwork from a TV show not even close to being ready yet.

Don't forget an Uncharted 4 teaser that didn't show much more than last year's title reveal.

Sony should be ashamed of how they handled E3 this year. They basically came riding a wave of launch hype, and hoped that would be enough to convince people they won.

 

[GoaThief]

Do you have any idea how much the guy shat on the PS3? I think that underlined claim is bogus, and flat out wrong.

Jim's most vociferous audience are PC gamers...

Pretty much like other fellow Escapists such as Yahtzee/Zero Punctuation

 

[mightynine]

How have the changes rendered it pointless? I can still play the same games as before, plus the upcoming releases still appeal to many. Those of us happy with Kinect can still use it, whilst anyone planning on buying an Xbox, can get a bundle with Kinect.

Quantum Break is unaffected .

Halo: Nightfall is included in the MCC and Microsoft are in talks with Showtime to co-produce the Spielberg tv series, which is scheduled for late 2015. Link

I guess I feel the system is pointless in relation to its original vision, and therein lies the problem - at least for me - is that you're still buying a box that was made to be something else first.

Last I saw, Quantum Break was still kinda up in the air, so thanks for the update.

As for the Halo TV series, quite frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. Getting pushed back during development isn't a good sign, especially when the studio that was going to help get it made no longer exists.

 

[Castef]

So they are to be scorned even more for listening and removing features that people hated? LOL, okay.

Basically this.

 

[Shinta]

Sony didn't promise any of those things. Just because you got hyped up and thought they'd show everything under the sun isn't their fault. And even still, promising to show a game and then not showing it is not nearly on the same level as trying to institute DRM policies, or promising a focus on things like Kinect and tv programming and selling a $500 partially on the back of that, and then removing all that shit 6 months later. It's a silly comparison. If you want to call out Sony because you don't like the games they show or are focusing on at their E3 press conference (as if that matters) then don't buy their system.

Too late, I already bought one before E3 :/

 

[meppi]

Which I don't disagree with you with. What I disagree with is the idea that MS has done anything worth apologizing for. They announced a service, people didn't like it. They changed it. No one has lost a dime becuase of Xbox DRM.

Yet they certainly lost something that can't be bought, at least for a lot of people: trust.

 

[MMaRsu]

Don't forget an Uncharted 4 teaser that didn't show much more than last year's title reveal.

Sony should be ashamed of how they handled E3 this year. They basically came riding a wave of launch hype, and hoped that would be enough to convince people they won.

Actually they showed a realtime trailer of UC4.

They showed a bunch of cool games. What else did they need? Sony likes to spread out game announcements and not do it all in one show so they barely have anything left to show.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Shit, an honest apology about fuck ups would do so much instead of trying to spin and make excuses;. Making excuses just makes people dislike you even more. Common sense is absent with these companies.

I don't know that an apology is necessary, but a change in message is. If not, and if they continue to run with this idea that people just weren't "ready" for the original XBone, why wouldn't I, as a consumer, not feel they might try to bring back those ideas in some way in the future?

 

[BigDug13]

what a brilliant way to start a discussion... also corporations are individuals in the eyes of the law. this is why you can sue a corporation as its own entity.

Until a corporation can go to prison, they're not people.

 

[mclem]

I would add to the "Jim is saying" category that Microsoft needed to have seriously apologized for and admitted to the mistakes they made, instead of trying constantly to spin the U-Turns into some glamorous favor for gamers.

I have to admit, I don't really see the attraction of an apology; I have an inherent mistrust of them, much like the mistrust I have of pre-release claims. I prefer to see action, not platitudes... and we have actually seen action.

 

[Metallix87]

Actually they showed a realtime trailer of UC4.

No, they showed a realtime teaser. It was Drake standing up and walking into a jungle. That's not a proper trailer. That's a teaser, which is ridiculous since we had been given a teaser months prior.