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[dude]

It sure is nice to live in denial

I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

I don't think it's a moral procedure by the way

Only 2 Israeli citizens died of Hamas rockets during the recent events, does that make them more acceptable? Does that lessen their threat?

 

[elhav]

I'm lost here, wth. Both are examples of humans being used as Human Shields, how is the one example less horrible than the other? Does te death number being only 1 justify that approach for you?

No, that approach is not moral, but more justifyable than the other.

IDF basically used hostages to be able to get terrorists to get out of their hiding place and surrender. Still immoral, but not as much as making your own citizens sitting ducks and making sure they stay put, to ensure that every bombing IDF makes is carrying with it many "martyrs" and dead people to help create negativity towards Israel. And they succeeded in doing so.

 

[LNBL]

Here's a nice read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)

And as I mentioned, IDF claimed that there were terrorists in that building and that the citizens were warned before the attack. I cannot bring a completely solid proof of that, but neither can you bring a proof that I'm wrong.

Wrong. The IDF said tere were terrorist active in the past days, not at the day of them bombing the UN shelter. And the UN employee said they reached out to the IDF to help in the evacuation bit that the IdF did not respond.

 

[zer0blivion]

Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever.

The implications of this are frightening. If it's done to one of your own, you view as cowardly, but if it's an other, oh well?

 

[thespot84]

This does not mean it's the only manner in which IDF soldiers have used human shields or have used civilians to carry out dangerous acts.

I agree. I have yet to see anything other than those two pics posted, and the wiki article said the knocking policy was put into effect 1,500 times. Armies are testosterone fueled killing machines, I have to believe it's happened in every army ever. But as a matter of policy? That's what makes a difference in my opinion. As far as I can tell, the vast, vast majority of 'human shield' use among the IDF was the knocking policy, and using civilians as cover against incoming fire was NOT policy. To me that's a material difference.

 

[LNBL]

No, that approach is not moral, but more justifyable than the other.

IDF basically used hostages to be able to get terrorists to get out of their hiding place and surrender. Still immoral, but not as much as making your own citizens sitting ducks and making sure they stay put, to ensure that every bombing IDF makes is carrying with it many "martyrs" and dead people to help create negativity towards Israel. And they succeeded in doing so.

It's not the only way the IDF used civilians in wars, as you can read in multiple replies above this one. Talking about Human shields and using the word justifyable in relation with eachother is a big no go in my book, which I hope is the case for the majority of people.

 

[TrojanBlade]

Roots of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Who is Instigating Who? | Interview with Alison Weir

World Protests Against Israel

When will American govt. wakeup and see the truth?

 

[kamorra]

Ahh, fuck. Just saw a uncensored extremely graphic picture of a dead palestinian girl. It was posted as an answer on the IDF twitter account. I'm feeling sick.

Another video about human shield usage of the IDF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAU8N-TQEdA

 

[elhav]

The implications of this are frightening. If it's done to one of your own, you view as cowardly, but if it's an other, oh well?

If it proved to bring to arrests of terrorists without risking soldiers' lives, and barely cause death besides that one incident, is a different story.

As I've said, it's still immoral, but understandable as a viable, without much risk tactic.
Hiding behind citizens is simply saying, we can't win this war so we will let the people fight for us, and die so we can keep existing.

 

[werks]

It sure is nice to live in denial

I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

I don't think it's a moral procedure by the way

Again, disgrace to the profession. Are you guys even capable of fighting against a capable enemy? Lebanon 06 would seem to say no.

 

[elhav]

Ahh, fuck. Just saw a uncensored extremely graphic picture of a dead palestinian girl. It was posted as an answer on the IDF twitter account. I'm feeling sick.

I think I saw that picture. It was horrifying.

 

[thespot84]

Roots of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Who is Instigating Who? | Interview with Alison Weir

World Protests Against Israel

When will American govt. wakeup and see the truth?

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

 

[elhav]

Again, disgrace to the profession. Are you guys even capable of fighting against a capable enemy? Lebanon 06 would seem to say no.

Are you kidding me? IDF crippled the foundations of the Hizballah. IDF had many losses but the army still managed to weaken the Hizballah immensely.

 

[dude]

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

They are flying there knowing they will kill civilians, but they rationalize it with "it's Hamas using them as human shields!", or that Gaza is so densely populated it's impossible not to hit civilians. But this doesn't change the fact hundreds of innocents are being killed, does it?

These pilots are of curse only doing their duty, though they chose not to refuse service, and most of them choose not to protest the Israeli policy.

 

[LNBL]

Are you kidding me? IDF crippled the foundations of the Hizballah. IDF had many losses but the army still managed to weaken the Hizballah immensely.

Crippled the foundations?

I think you mean weakened Hezbollah. Saying they crippled their foundations would suggest they beat Hezbollah in some ways, while the IDF actually failed. The thing that Israel weakened the most is Lebanon's infrastructure, which up until this day has not fully been restored.

 

[thespot84]

They are flying there knowing they will kill civilians, but they rationalize it with "it's Hamas using them as human shields!", or that Gaza is so densely populated it's impossible not to hit civilians. But this doesn't change the fact hundreds of innocents are being killed, does it?

These pilots are of curse only doing their duty, though they chose not to refuse service, and most of them choose not to protest the Israeli policy.

Did i say it did?

 

[Toxi]

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

Well, they certainly didn't think of another way to deal with a beach or a hospital or a UN shelter where they say Hamas might be.

 

[kamorra]

Bit offtopic but for the love of everything guys, be wary on which links you click if you check the IDF twitter. I've seen some horrible things but this was truly too much. I have a eight month old boy which I now have to wake up to hug him. ;(

 

[thespot84]

Well, they certainly didn't think of another way to deal with a beach or a hospital or a UN shelter where they say Hamas might be.

I'm not debating the strategy, which I agree is piss poor. I'm not trying to insinuate something one or or another. I'm honestly trying to find out if someone has that opinion.

 

[LNBL]

I'm not debating the strategy, which I agree is piss poor. I'm not trying to insinuate something one or or another. I'm honestly trying to find out if someone has that opinion.

In my opinion Israel does not care what they hit, as long as they think there is anything related to Hamas there they will bomb it out of this world. This conflict has only confirmed that view in my opinion.

Look at how they bombed those kids on the beach. The spokesperson said the IDF had the capabilities to confirm who was on that beach, but they did not. They just bombed them and have not even shown any remorse or regret.

 

[ASIS]

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

Yes. I really do believe that. They are killing everyone including civilians.

 

[NullPointer]

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

Bombing their targets in a dense urban environment where there is literally nowhere for the civilians to go? Yes. I think the intent is to hit their military targets, civilians be damned, and to hit their non-military targets (infrastructure and homes of Hamas associated people), civilians be damned some more.

There is no humane way to undergo an operation of this scope over an environment like this and where the non-combatants cannot even flee for their lives. Its naked aggression, collective punishment, and terrorism.

 

[Toxi]

I'm not debating the strategy, which I agree is piss poor. I'm not trying to insinuate something one or or another. I'm honestly trying to find out if someone has that opinion.

There's not much difference between malice and complete indifference. They give no shit about civilian lives and the civilians are paying for it.

 

[Dai101]

Bit offtopic but for the love of everything guys, be wary on which links you click if you check the IDF twitter. I've seen some horrible things but this was truly too much. I have a eight month old boy which I now have to wake up to hug him. ;(

No need to. I've seen them already and on a daily basis while looking for news of this disgusting genocide of israel against the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

YES. With all the intent and porpouse.

 

[zer0blivion]

When will American govt. wakeup and see the truth?

They know the truth full well, but they won't act because reasons. The only thing we can do is make our voices heard. You can let your government know how you feel by writing letters and emails.

If you reside in the US, there's an Amnesty International campaign you participate in here: http://act.amnestyusa.org/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1839&ea.campaign.id=30408

 

[kamorra]

No need to. I've seen them already and on a daily basis while looking for news of this disgusting genocide of israel against the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

Well your stomach must be harder as mine because I wasn't prepared to see a small, young Palestinian with her guts hanging out.

 

[zer0blivion]

Palestinian death toll reportedly rises over 800
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606934

3:16 A.M. Palestinian death toll since beginning of Operation Protective Edge rises to 805, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, while the number of wounded reached 5,200.

20 people have been killed in attacks in the northern and southern Gaza Strip over the past few hours, according to Palestinian media.

 

[Toxi]

So honest question here. Do people believe that the bombers flying into gaza are doing so with the intent to kill civilians?

I might have to reconsider this question.

The IDF claims the UN shelter was supposed to be evacuated between 10:00 am and 2:00 am.

The attack happened at 9:45 am.

 

[Dai101]

Well your stomach must be harder as mine because I wasn't prepared to see a small, young Palestinian with her guts hanging out.

No is not. It enrages and infuriates me. Makes me feel impotent and worthless that i cant do nothing about it.

 

[RedHotChimiChanga]

I might have to reconsider this question.

The IDF claims the UN shelter was supposed to be evacuated between 10:00 am and 2:00 am.

The attack happened at 9:45 am.

Even if they attacked at 10am, that many people were still in there. 15 minutes isn't enough to evacuate all those people.

 

[LNBL]

Even if they attacked at 10am, that many people were still in there. 15 minutes isn't enough to evacuate all those people.

You have experience in evacuating people to make such claims?

 

[TrojanBlade]

I might have to reconsider this question.

The IDF claims the UN shelter was supposed to be evacuated between 10:00 am and 2:00 am.

The attack happened at 9:45 am.

Same old fucking tricks by Israel playing the innocent...."but but we told you to evacuate before we bomb the whole area"... Where the F so many ppl will go??? This was a UN shelter and they bombed it saying "but Hamas was there ... Gotta bomb lol" . So now UN is Hamas too?? This is pure precision genocide and America is supporting the biggest bully in Middleeast. I wish somehow I was able to not pay a dime of tax to this govt who is using our money to support this genocide.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Palestinian death toll reportedly rises over 800
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606934

When is this going to end

It's fucking ridiculous.

 

[Toxi]

Even if they attacked at 10am, that many people were still in there. 15 minutes isn't enough to evacuate all those people.

Not 15 minutes, zero. The scheduled evacuation time the IDF is claiming started at 10am.

So basically, Israel is either lying through their teeth, or they shelled a UN shelter before they were even supposed to start evacuating.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Just a friendly reminder...

So your answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.

There is zero proof that Hamas uses people as Human shields.During and following the last round of violence there were twenty two investigations into the claim of Human Shield usage by Hamas.

Every report without fail either came to the conclusion that Hamas does not use Human shields or that there is no proof of them employing this tactic.

Here is one such report you can read from Amnesty international.

Amnesty international: 22 days of Death and Destruction: There is no evidence that Hamas engaged in Human shielding.
http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

Human Rights Watch, on Israel’s Conduct



http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians



Israel Deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish ... There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects
~ United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict The GoldStone Report
The Gold Stone Report
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch (16. juli, 2014):






So then on the subject of confirmed war crimes and conduct



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122341945&postcount=2823

I am legitimately not being cheeky when I say I hope you will actually reply to this, I do not say that out of malice or patting myself on the back, I just think having responsive communication between people on each side pof the issue is pretty important. I still need to go through that collection of Israel news that someone posted a few pages back, the one where he made the comment about the echo chamber.

Pure ether. My quote made it in and all.

I'd love to hear his response to that.

You won't. This is what he's done. When his arguments get dismantled and he's thoroughly beaten down he just goes away for a while, ignoring all the points made to counter his blatant cheerleading, then will re-emerge in a day or two. Eventually repeating all the same stuff.

..........................

Hamas was formed in reaction to the existence of Israel, which only wants a nation of it's own.

Israel gave Gaza self governance back in 1994 and pulled out it's settlers unilaterally in 2005.

Quit giving dash attention. Every day it seems he comes into this thread spewing his biased, one-sided nonsense and then when someone finally decides it's gotten old enough, they go to the trouble of writing up a long post or a series of long posts sourcing everywhere where he is wrong. Dash then runs away and then re-emerges in a day or two to start the cycle all over again.

When you talk of infrastructure.. There was an article on how much concrete was used to make the tunnels. The implication being that could have been used for bomb shelters like the Israelis have, or whatever else.

And again, self governance and unilaterally pulling it's settlers out is not a step towards a modern state?

As for the blockade, everyone seems to leave out that Gaza shares a border with Egypt too. A border that has a barrier up. And why is that.

Israeli provocation leads to the "who started it" debate. I'm of the opinion they each provoke each other constantly. So I'm sure Israel does it's fair share and Hamas returns the favor. Hamas is not daft for the rocket attacks, they are being deliberate and they know what the results will be. They feel like it's working to their advantage.

Among other things, the 1967 border cuts Israel off from Jerusalem. They'll never go for it.

Not to mention all the Jewish settlements. But hopefully a modified version would work. Maybe.

Only a small portion of it, or East Jerusalem. In other words, it'd be divided up with the majority of it going to Israel. Or they could just go with the UN 47 plan of having the entirety of Jerusalem as part of an international regime and of joint ownership.

In the interests of focusing this a bit I'd prefer to just deal with this part because I think it's the key. If you'd like me to answer something else let me know.

Given that Israel withdrew from Gaza and it has had self governance since 1994, it seems to me that the main obstacle now is the blockade. And that's the newest cycle. Israel withdrew, border was relaxed relatively, Fatah provided basic regulation. Fatah gets ousted by Hamas, and Israel clamps down. in 2010/11 Israel and Egypt bow to pressure to ease the blockade... and Hamas re-arms. So Israel clamps down again. And the cycle repeats.

Given the geography involved, what exactly does Hamas want? Just the air and sea blockade to stop? Or they want full access into Israel and Egypt? Or what.

Agreed, this conversation is pointless. You want to ignore the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Ignore they pushed out Fatah, used suicide bombers when they could and rockets now. Then give them some credit for obeying a cease fire, which is contested, while saying Israel instigated. Fine. We disagree. They are constantly re-arming and then attacking, rather than building on what progress was made.

Israel is under zero obligation to allow anyone it doesnt want across it's borders. Especially those who have an elected government who is a group that formed to destroy Israel.

So If I'm Israel here's my response:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
- Israel can protect it's own border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
- Whole can of worms here, it's a legal issue.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
-Opening the Israeli border? Again zero obligation.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
- This seems only fair. Although I think the UN is shit at supervision and it will only lead to re-arming, the alternative is starving people and poverty. While I blame that on Hamas, I think you have to agree to this.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
- sure

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

- That's up to Egypt.

International forces on the borders.
- Sure keep them on the Gaza side.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the al-Aqsa Mosque.
- Seems fair.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
- Seems fair.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
- This is one of those "Sounds good" but turns out to be a Food for Oil thing where it's completely abused and for every shipment of food and medicine in comes some Iranian or Syrian rocket.

BBC has some good stuff. But just read a bunch of different sources.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/

And what do they want, a medal? So they do all they did, and now this year make overtures for a Unity government with the group they violently pushed out of the region. I'll believe it when I see it. Not impressed. With that said I agree Israel shouldn't have a say in it.






Exactly, this is where Israel needs to capitulate. And that's not to say this doesn't pose huge security risks for them but, it's necessary. So yet again Israel will need to make a unilateral withdrawal with no assurances from a terrorist organization.

In the same article:

What the hell is this? Talk about selectively picking only one aspect of this conflict, misrepresenting it's context and then using that misrepresentation to skew the argument.

Acquiring land via military action or war.

Yes, that war happened when the Arab states did not agree to the UN 47 agreement or borders (no surprise there), but the land which Israel occupied during that war, and up to the 67 green line, was occupied even according to Israel back then. Add to that, you do not "acquire" land in wars. Were that true, the US would own most of the Middle East right now. Land acquiring through military action is illegal under international law.

On top of that, do you intentionally leave out facts and figures that go against your favoured narrative, or do you just have no knowledge of the history of this conflict beyond 1967?

Past the 1967 borders.

Ever since the war, and the green line, Israel has, through military supported action, destroyed countless more Palestinian homes and in doing so displaced thousands, and expanded it's illegal settlements within Palestinian land. There is a reason why the map of Palestine today looks nothing like it did even in 1967, because Israel has continuously stolen more and more land, and settled upon it. That is FACT.

A 2013 report found that only 8% of Historic Palestine remained Palestinian. So Even the diagram below is outdated. The only blatant lie is outright denying Israel isn't land hungry, based on all the evidence before us.

New report shows Palestinians own only 8% of historic Palestine
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/palestinians-historic-palestine.html

As of 2013, this is what the map of Palestine looks like.

I dont think you're aware of the history either. Again you can look to this timeline which is pretty good for a broad overview:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1917.stm

Note that the land your little pictures show as 100% Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. WWI changed that and it came under British rule. i.e. Land it acquired from war.

So yes over the various wars in which Arab nations attacked Israel, they did acquire more land. And then gave much of it back, as an example Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1979.stm

Right, as I've said myself countless times. Palestine pre-47 was Mandated Palestine, or the British Mandate for Palestine, which as you mentioned the British controlled.

However due to pressure from both Arabs and Jews, but mainly as a result of violence from Israeli terrorist organisations such as Irgun and Lehi, and the death of British personal by their hands, is what led Britain to finally give up that land and task the UN with drawing up the new borders, which it did.

The problem today is that Israel's thirst for land and disregard for Palestinian life or loss, is compelling them to steal more and more of Palestine on a yearly basis, as they have done for decades on end. In-fact, they have destroyed Palestinian structures and displaced masses of Palestinians from their homes, on a weekly (I repeat, weekly) basis with little stoppage, for years and years on end. This is actually well documented by on the ground weekly UN reports.

Well, to be fair everyone involved seems to have forgotten it too

 

[werks]

I don't even believe the IDF gave any window for an evacuation. UNRWA has maintained from the beginning that they have repeatedly request evacuation and received nothing from the IDF. IDF came up with this evac window after the fact.

Just like they denied attacking the shelter all day. Only to claim that Hamas used the shelter to launch mortar days earlier. Makes no fucking sense. Of course they can't claim that hamas was using the shelter currently because there aren't any dead hamas or witness that say hamas was firing rockets.

Same thing with the 4 boys in the beach. Attacked the boys, then adjusted fire to kill the boys and then conveniently claim that hamas used the beach earlier.

Even if it was true. What the fuck kind of enemy identification is that? Somebody used that area earlier so we just attacked it. No regard for identifying civilians or enemy currently in the area in flagrant violation of the laws of war.

Of course we heard from our IDF buddy earlier. Fucking coward that condones hiding behind civilians.

 

[zer0blivion]

Israel’s Media Blackout
Why aren’t Israeli journalists questioning their military’s devastation in Gaza?

By Janine Zacharia

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._questions_about_the_war_and_palestinian.html

Few Israeli journalists have cultivated Palestinian sources because there is amazingly little interest among the Israeli public in understanding Palestinian affairs.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Palestinian death toll reportedly rises over 800
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606934

The United States continues to be the greatest Hypocrite the world has ever seen, on one hand they are drilling and sanctioning Russia for supporting separatists in Ukraine yet at the same exact fucking time a country they send billion of dollars in aid and military equipment to is killing hundreds of civilians and nobody including the international community is doing anything about it. I can't wait for a world of multiple superpowers, because our experiment with a sole superpower has truly failed. The United States and its allies can commit acts with impunity but when others follow their example they are immediately ostracized,

 

[sindbadthesailor]

No, that approach is not moral, but more justifyable than the other.

IDF basically used hostages to be able to get terrorists to get out of their hiding place and surrender. Still immoral, but not as much as making your own citizens sitting ducks and making sure they stay put, to ensure that every bombing IDF makes is carrying with it many "martyrs" and dead people to help create negativity towards Israel. And they succeeded in doing so.

Wow.

There's despicable and then there's things like this.

FYI, you're not helping your 'case' in the slightest.

 

[RustyNails]

FYI, this image is also a little misleading, but definitely better than the previous one the other poster used. The Pre-1948 map states 100% of Historic Palestine. That map is in fact the Borders of Mandatory Palestine which was under British administration from 1920 to 1948. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

Historic Palestine is the green outline here:



Boundaries of Roman Syria Palaestina, where dashed green line shows the boundary between Byzantine Palaestina Prima (later Jund Filastin) and Palaestina Secunda (later Jund al-Urdunn), as well as Palaestina Salutaris (later Jebel et-Tih and the Jifar).

As you see, it is not exactly the same and actually encompasses part of Jordan and Lebanon.

The images also don't really tell the complete story since Historical Palestina had a mixed population that also included Jews, whereas the Palestinians of today are of different makeups/proportions.

EDIT
I can't seem to direct link that image, but here is another one from 1759

Your contention is "Palestine" as shown on the disappearing map did not have borders historically that aligned with that map. I agree. But name which country on earth that had unchanging borders for the past 200 years. When people say Palestine, they mean the British Mandate, generally.

 

[RustyNails]

No, that approach is not moral, but more justifyable than the other.

IDF basically used hostages to be able to get terrorists to get out of their hiding place and surrender. Still immoral, but not as much as making your own citizens sitting ducks and making sure they stay put, to ensure that every bombing IDF makes is carrying with it many "martyrs" and dead people to help create negativity towards Israel. And they succeeded in doing so.

I just hope you are not a member of any police, swat team, army or a trained military force. If you are, God help us.

 

[Chumly]

Here's a nice read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)

And as I mentioned, IDF claimed that there were terrorists in that building and that the citizens were warned before the attack. I cannot bring a completely solid proof of that, but neither can you bring a proof that I'm wrong.

Im waiting for your response. Its been proven factually false that there were terrorists in the building. Also the UN confirms there was no warning. The burden of proof is on the IDF. They were the ones that decided to bomb the building and kill innocent civilians. All they have managed is a bunch of pathetic excuses. Now please tell me how this compares to what the US did? The IDF defense force likes to try and deflect blame and bring up other countries but address the situation at hand.

 

[zer0blivion]

I just hope you are not a member of any police, swat team, army or a trained military force. If you are, God help us.

Oh I'm not a soldier anymore, but thanks for the tip.

He was at one point in time, but nearly every Israeli is.

 

[m_shortpants]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28476882

At least 10,000 protesters marched from Ramallah towards East Jerusalem, where they were met by Israeli forces.

Around 200 protestors were wounded.

Meanwhile, the death toll in Gaza's fighting has continued to rise, with over 800 Palestinians and 33 Israelis killed since 8 July.

The Israeli military confirmed that troops had used "riot dispersal means" after West Bank protestors threw rocks and blocked a road with burning tyres.

Israel launched its military offensive against Gaza on 8 July with the declared objective of stopping Hamas firing rockets into Israel.

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday he regretted each Palestinian civilian death, but said they were "the responsibility of Hamas".

 

[Bodacious]

I once read about a IDF soldier letting children open bags of which he thought had bombs in them. Not to forget the child abbuse a lot of children faced when arrested by the IDF.

The IDF is not the moral army we are meant to believe it is. The current conflict just confirms that.

So it totally happened, fer sure.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but wow ... that's all you need to be convinced huh.

 

[zer0blivion]

https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/492501293542703104

25,000 protesters marching from The West Bank towards Jerusalem....A Third Palestinian "intifada" upraising may have just started.

Edit:
West Bank Rises, Tens Of Thousands Join Largest March Since Last Intifada
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5619332?utm_hp_ref=tw

 

[elhav]

Im waiting for your response. Its been proven factually false that there were terrorists in the building. Also the UN confirms there was no warning. The burden of proof is on the IDF. They were the ones that decided to bomb the building and kill innocent civilians. All they have managed is a bunch of pathetic excuses. Now please tell me how this compares to what the US did? The IDF defense force likes to try and deflect blame and bring up other countries but address the situation at hand.

Err I haven't really seen the proof. Care to share it with me?

And I find it funny that some people think my words were extreme, when I clearly said human shields as a whole are immoral.

 

[Hackworth]

So it totally happened, fer sure.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but wow ... that's all you need to be convinced huh.

Prior to 2008-2009 Gaza War[edit]
The IDF admitted it had used Palestinians as 'human shields', in limited capacities; it acknowleged using human shields 1,500 times during the Second Intifada.;[14] the practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[14][15] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[14][16] Specifically, while acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", claiming it had already forbidden this practice.[15]

Amnesty International[17] and Human Rights Watch[18] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[19][20] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of "human shields" during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[21]

The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[19][22] In 2006, the IDF again used civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun.[23] In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[22][24] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[22] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[25]

During the 2008-2009 Gaza War[edit]
During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence).[26] According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[26][27] Amnesty International claimed that the Israeli military used human shields during the Gaza War of 2008-2009, stating that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk.[28] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".[citation needed] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict.[29][30]

The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008-2009 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields.[31][32] In the videos three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family claimed that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Isreali soldiers.[32]

An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[32]

On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[33] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[34] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[35][36][37] The boy's mother criticized the light punishment, saying "This is a scandal that just encourages others to continue in this behaviour which sends a negative message to both the victims and the soldiers."[33] The sentence was also criticized by Human Rights Watch, whose Middle East director, Sarah Leah Whitson, called the sentence "slap on the wrist" and "unjustifiably lenient".[38] HRW noticed that the only soldier involved in the operation who was served time in prison was one who committed the lesser crime of stealing a credit card.[38]

I know, Wikipedia is balls, but this seems pretty legit.

EDIT: also I just saw a bunch of citation needed marks in the Palestine section, so maybe the page has been recently edited.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

It sure is nice to live in denial

I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

I don't think it's a moral procedure by the way

So what you're saying is in all the times human shields hostages were used by the idf, the terrorists only killed them once. Thats interesting considering the idfs approach to their enemies allegedly doing a similar thing.

 

[nib95]

https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/492501293542703104

Edit:
West Bank Rises, Tens Of Thousands Join Largest March Since Last Intifada
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5619332?utm_hp_ref=tw

That's a lot of people marching. Things could get really bad. The Palestinians seem woefully under equipped though. Fireworks and rocks as their most dangerous combat tools whilst the opposition has automatic weapons, riot gear and tanks. For some reason it all sort of reminds me of Snowpiercer.