Man shoots and kills intruder. Police determine she was not pregnant.

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Dude crossed the threshold when he shot them while they were running away. You call the police, you get them arrested and call it a day.
 
So legally what he done was wrong, but I cannot have any sympathy whatsoever for criminals.

His very cold having no regrets/remorse though, I mean he killed an innocent unborn baby.

Despite your reasons, surely you would feel bad about that no?
 
Shao Kahn on the Lawn said:
That's your opinion. I disagree with it. This is an 88 year-old man: aside from the obvious fact that they could have caused a heart attack/stroke easily enough by doing what they did, they outright assaulted him. On their third robbery of his home. I find it amazing that anyone can sit here and claim that these people were no longer a threat because they'd vacated the premises. They didn't have the upper hand but they never stopped being a threat.
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It's my opinion but it's also clearly the law. He committed a crime. Once they turned to flee he no longer has any legal justification to use deadly force. Again that this is the law is inarguable but I think it's also morally correct to recognize his lack of justification in ending a life.
 
This is bad in all angles. The old man is ruthless and iff he called the cops wtf are they gonna do? File a report? No PD is gonna patrol a 80 year old's house just because it got robbed.
 
Bodom78 said:
So legally what he done was wrong, but I cannot have any sympathy whatsoever for criminals.

His very cold having no regrets/remorse though, I mean he killed an innocent unborn baby.

Despite your reasons, surely you would feel bad about that no?
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He supposedly killed an unborn child, that's unconfirmed (for now?)
 
Shoot someone in the back as they're running away, and you've committed murder. Pretty sure that's how it works.
 
Mr.Wreckless said:
Don't want to be killed, don't repeatedly threaten the safety of my family.

It's not like I'm asking for something unreasonable here.
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They're not allowed to kill you, you're not allowed to kill them without repercussions, it's rules set by a society, and it works pretty well in the rest of the western world.

There's been a breakdown in communication of societal rules of late in the USA, but that country is hardly the bastion of a modern working society.
 
I just can't believe someone would do that to a person while they're running away ~ and she was pregnant.

It's wrong to break into another person's home, but shooting and killing someone and their unborn child and then showing no remorse? I don't know if I can sympathize as much as I would if a child wasn't collateral damage.
 
They've robbed and assaulted him on several occasions, I guess he'd just had enough and decided to put an end to it. It's obviously not self defense, but you can't put all the blame onto him. I find it hard to care about someone being killed when they're in the business of beating up and robbing the elderly.
 
Having a hard mustering any anger towards the old man. If someone breaks in my home, I'm reaching for my piece as well. You have the balls to intrude on the safety of my family, you accept the risk that day will be your final one.
 
Toxi said:
I'm sure that woman had feelings and convictions too. And like her, he still committed a terrible crime.

If you can't have sympathy for assault and burglary, I'm not sure how you can have sympathy for murder.
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Hey I like your style. Pm your address please. I'll give it to some desperate person down on their luck. Also give me a time you won't be home.

As I said before I wouldn't have shot her but the man was on the edge because they kept robbing him. It is manslaughter at the most.
 
Mr.Wreckless said:
Yeah, because the police did such an excellent job catching them after the 1st and 2nd time they robbed him.
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You seem to be spoiling for a fight about this, from what I can see. I have no interest in that.

Something worth pointing out: It seems they got in a physical confrontation inside the home, and then fleed when he found his weapon. We're good so far, since he's defending his home. It's also rather important if he shot them while they were still inside, or followed them out into the alleyway and did. The articles I read so far seem shaky on the location, beyond what Greer said.

This is basically a who's who of how not to handle a burglary.
 
oE6EbnY.jpg


this is fucking scary and hopeless on so many levels.
 
KHarvey16 said:
It's my opinion but it's also clearly the law. He committed a crime. Once they turned to flee he no longer has any legal justification to use deadly force. Again that this is the law is inarguable but I think it's also morally correct to recognize his lack of justification in ending a life.
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At what point have I made any indication that I was arguing about any law? I've been responding to all the high-handed bullshit about the moral stature of a man who has endured multiple crimes only to find himself with the upper hand in the situation.

ishibear said:
I just can't believe someone would do that to a person while they're running away ~ and she was pregnant.

It's wrong to break into another person's home, but shooting and killing someone and their unborn child and then showing no remorse? I don't know if I can sympathize as much as I would if a child wasn't collateral damage.
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All that and yet not a single mention of the choice of the mother to wear her unborn child like a bulletproof vest...
 
travisbickle said:
They're not allowed to kill you, you're not allowed to kill them without repercussions, it's rules set by a society, and it works pretty well in the rest of the western world.

There's been a breakdown in communication of societal rules of late in the USA, but that country is hardly the bastion of a modern working society.
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Ok so the 4th they come and rob me they are armed and kill my son, you think the knowledge that I played it by the rules of society is going to console me?
 
travisbickle said:
They're not allowed to kill you, you're not allowed to kill them without repercussions, it's rules set by a society, and it works pretty well in the rest of the western world.

There's been a breakdown in communication of societal rules of late in the USA, but that country is hardly the bastion of a modern working society.
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Are you roleplaying right now?
 
If he did that shit here in Canada, he would be in jail, fact. I don't even think you're allowed to shoot someone if they're in your house, unless they themselves have a gun and shot at you first, but that's it.

Either way, shooting someone in the back is just fucking sick. I sympathize at how he must have felt, having had them break in on 2 previous accounts. The mind fuck/grief that must have caused him, but this was no way to handle it.
 
ishibear said:
I just can't believe someone would do that to a person while they're running away ~ and she was pregnant.

It's wrong to break into another person's home, but shooting and killing someone and their unborn child and then showing no remorse? I don't know if I can sympathize as much as I would if a child wasn't collateral damage.
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Obviously being pregnant and potentially putting an unborn baby in harms way didn't cross the mother's mind when she robbed a person's home multiple times.

She didn't deserve to be murdered, but by entering a person's home, you're asking for whatever trouble you receive. Can't expect the person who you're stealing from to have remorse after continuously robbing them.
 
hiroshawn said:
Hey I like your style. Pm your address please. I'll give it to some desperate person down on their luck. Also give me a time you won't be home.

As I said before I wouldn't have shot her but the man was on the edge because they kept robbing him. It is manslaughter at the most.
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At most? Not sure what he could get less than manslaughter.
 
Shao Kahn on the Lawn said:
At what point have I made any indication that I was arguing about any law? I've been responding to all the high-handed bullshit about the moral stature of a man who has endured multiple crimes only to find himself with the upper hand in the situation.
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And I responded to that. He was legally and morally wrong as they did not present a deadly threat to him as they were fleeing. A lone citizen does not have the right to end anyone's life unless it is to save their own life or the life of another. What they "deserve" is absolutely immaterial, and that they were a threat in some potential future sense is never justification for in-the-moment deadly force.
 
I am always baffled by the black & white absolute morality some people display in these threads. Both parties made extremely unfortunate decisions in this case, but I'm going to have to place the majority of the blame on the robbers. Don't break into people's homes, and especially don't assault them.
 
Mr.Wreckless said:
Furthermore the point I was originally making is that after you just got jumped and robbed you aren't in the same state of mind you would be otherwise. You won't just say "hey these people just beat my ass and robbed me but now that he turned around I no longer feel threatened, I'll just let them go". That's just absurd and only happens in the minds of people on message boards.
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I think this is something that people really do need to consider sometimes. Things will not go as carefully calculated in hostile situations as people would hope for. Yes, I know you guys have a high moral and you want to show it, but at least take things like this into consideration.

I don't agree with what this guy did either, and I especially don't like the attitude he has after the fact. The man probably wanted revenge, and was fed up with being helplessly robbed. And in an instant, he made a poor choice. At the same time though, don't go robbing people. You could get killed, or do some killing yourself.
 
KHarvey16 said:
And I responded to that. He was legally and morally wrong as they did not present a deadly threat to him as they were fleeing. A lone citizen does not have the right to end anyone's life unless it is to save their own life or the life of another. What they "deserve" is absolutely immaterial, and that they were a threat in some potential future sense is never justification for in-the-moment deadly force.
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Am I really going to have to break out the definition of "opinion" for you or can I assume that you are simply ignoring it for the sake of riding that moral high horse around this thread?
 
Mr.Wreckless said:
Ok so the 4th they come and rob me they are armed and kill my son, you think the knowledge that I played it by the rules of society is going to console me?
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You could break the rules of society if you want, but I don't think going to prison for murder would be the best way to serve your family
 
The problem with the situation is that people are kind of melding together two incidents.

Two people break into someone's home for the 3rd time, but he catches them in the act now. They get into a physical confrontation inside the home. The homeowner gets his gun, the burglars flee. I'll also assume she tells him to not shoot because she's pregnant here, because who's going to say that while running? That's incident one.

Homeowner follows fleeing burglars outside of the property (I'll assume this is the case since that's what Greer said), attempts to shoot both of them, but one gets away. Homeowner ends up shooting and killing the other via shooting them in the back. That's incident two.

The burglars created the situation by causing incident one. Homeowner didn't do anything wrong here and was defending his home.

The homeowner escalates and finishes the situation by causing incident two. You know when someone says, 'You started it, I finished it?' That's basically this situation in a nutshell.

I also have no idea why people would claim this is manslaughter, but it really depends on if they charge him in general.
 
How many times do people need to say "Don't rob people" before they realize that nobody is advocating robbery?

It's so stupid. Yes, these robbers were scum. You know who else is scum? The asshole who chased an unarmed person down a street and shot her. I don't give a shit if he was angry or scared, taking that life is not morally or legally justified and it's frightening that anyone could defend this.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn said:
Am I really going to have to break out the definition of "opinion" for you or can I assume that you are simply ignoring it for the sake of riding that moral high horse around this thread?
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Yes, condemning revenge killing is totally being on your moral high horse.
 
demon said:
Shoot someone in the back as they're running away, and you've committed murder. Pretty sure that's how it works.
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The less culpable characterization is voluntary manslaughter.

Pinko Marx said:
I am always baffled by the black & white absolute morality some people display in these threads. Both parties made extremely unfortunate decisions in this case, but I'm going to have to place the majority of the blame on the robbers. Don't break into people's homes, and especially don't assault them.
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Uh...then don't put the majority on one side and just call it even.
 
Murder is shit no matter the context. Smh at this thread.

Mr.Wreckless said:
Ok so the 4th they come and rob me they are armed and kill my son, you think the knowledge that I played it by the rules of society is going to console me?
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Since we're working hypotheticals, say they try to rob you and you shoot them but a stray bullet goes flying off and hits your neighbor's kid. Is your neighbor justified in shooting you in revenge?
 
He knowingly killed an unborn child/fetus. There's a reason it counts as two charges when you kill a pregnant woman?
 
Cmerrill said:
I don't even think you're allowed to shoot someone if they're in your house, unless they themselves have a gun and shot at you first, but that's it.
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In my opinion, that's beyond ridiculous. There are armed people inside my house and I can't take action until I'm being shot at? Fuck that. Your right to life is forfeit the moment you decide to threaten someone with violent force.

I thought hard about this case. The deciding factor, for me, was the fact that it was the 3rd time that this had happened. I put myself in the old man's shoes. The same people keep breaking into my house - I'm living in fear in my own damn house - and now, not only are they robbing my house again, this time they've physically assaulted me.

I'm on Team Old Man (Can we call it TOM?).
 
He was looking for a reason to shoot that gun. Screw the bf too for letting his pregnant gf even get into that situation.
 
Purexed said:
Having a hard mustering any anger towards the old man. If someone breaks in my home, I'm reaching for my piece as well. You have the balls to intrude on the safety of my family, you accept the risk that day will be your final one.
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That's fine but would you chase them down the street and shoot them in the back as they ran away? I would think at that point calling the cops would be enough, there's no more danger at that point.
 
Cmerrill said:
I don't even think you're allowed to shoot someone if they're in your house, unless they themselves have a gun and shot at you first, but that's it.
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Canada has laws allowing the use of deadly force if the occupant feels their life is in danger. No one has to have a gun or shoot at anyone.
 
If you don't want to get shot, then don't break into someone's house.
 
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