2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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When Obama says something like that, are the Israelis forced to listen or can they ignore such pressure without any consequences?

Um, do you know who Mosab Yousef is, besides being son of Seikh Hasan Yousef?

Can you explain who he is? I'm surprised by that youtube link but there seems to be more behind it.
 
I decided to look him up.
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Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing, destruction & death has been consistent.

If only those two sentences actually appeared together in his letter. Which they didn't. You should actually try reading the source material instead of cherry picked, out of context, stitched together phrases.

Ben Gurion was speaking about the Negev in the first sentence, which he assumed would not be part of the Jewish state and would remain barren, unused because of lack of Arab competence, yet they would still prefer it vacant instead of allowing Jews to inhabit it. He did not wish to expel the Arabs and preferred they'd allow the Jews to use the land.

The second quote wasn't even in the letters to his son in 1937. It was written in his diary in 1947. It was a reference to how to respond to Arab attacks. The actual quote was:

"In every [Arab] attack, prepare to strike [in response] a decisive blow, destroying the place or expelling the inhabitants and capture their place.”

when I posted the thread about the racism and ethnic cleansing policies of Israeli govt. that has existed for the longest time, I and many others were ridiculed and lambasted by the GAF IDF.

Just like the blind unhitched support of US some folks just don't get it at how blatant Israel has been in wiping out Palestinians.

Given you just gobbled up the Ben Gurion quote without question you should expect to be ridiculed.
 
When Obama says something like that, are the Israelis forced to listen or can they ignore such pressure without any consequences?

Israel has far more support from elected Democrats, Republicans and ordinary citizens.. if anyone is in the position to be forced to listen its Obama lol his phone calls didn't work on Putin and we aren't even on good terms
 
If only those two sentences actually appeared together in his letter. Which they didn't. You should actually try reading the source material instead of cherry picked, out of context, stitched together phrases.

Ben Gurion was speaking about the Negev in the first sentence, which he assumed would not be part of the Jewish state and would remain barren, unused because of lack of Arab competence, yet they would still prefer it vacant instead of allowing Jews to inhabit it. He did not wish to expel the Arabs and preferred they'd allow the Jews to use the land.

The second quote wasn't even in the letters to his son in 1937. It was written in his diary in 1947. It was a reference to how to respond to Arab attacks. The actual quote was:

"In every [Arab] attack, prepare to strike [in response] a decisive blow, destroying the place or expelling the inhabitants and capture their place.”


Given you just gobbled up the Ben Gurion quote without question you should expect to be ridiculed.
Can you explain some of Ben Gurion's other quotes, though?

"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. ... I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."
As quoted in Chomsky, Noam, 1999.

In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine… let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them.
A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.
Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938) as quoted in Flapan, Simha, 1979.

If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.
Attributed to Ben-Gurion (pre-War 1939) by Martin Gilbert in "Israel was everything" in The New York Times (21 June 1987)

Let me first tell you one thing: It doesn't matter what the world says about Israel; it doesn't matter what they say about us anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here on the land of our forefathers. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won't survive.
As quoted by Ariel Sharon, in the documentary The 50 Years War : Israel & The Arabs (1999), this advice was given to him by Ben-Gurion after the controversial raid on Qibya.

[A quote about Ben-Gurion by Nahum Goldmann] One day, or rather night, in 1956 I sat up at his [Ben-Gurion's] house till three in the morning. That night, a beautiful summer night, we had a forthright discussion on the Arab problem. "I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out. I'll be seventy years old soon. Well, Nahum, if you asked me whether I shall die and be buried in a Jewish State I would tell you Yes; in ten years, fifteen years, I believe there will still be a Jewish State. But ask me whether my son Amos, who will be fifty at the end of this year, has a chance of dying and being buried in a Jewish State, and I would answer: fifty-fifty." "But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind and be PM of Israel too?" I responded. "Who says I sleep?" was Ben-Gurion's simple reply. That was Ben-Gurion all over: he had told me that so as to show me how well he knew in his heart that Israel could not exist without peace with the Arabs, but his stubborn, aggressive unbending character prevented him from following what his own intelligence told him. The best proof of that is that having lost his grip on power his intelligence reasserted itself; he even became a 'Goldmannite', declaring that all the occupied territories except Jerusalem should be restored. On this point I am in agreement with him: Israel must keep Jerusalem.
Nahum Goldmann, in The Jewish Paradox : A Personal Memoir of Historic Encounters that Shaped the Drama of Modern Jewry (1978)
 
obama won't do anything, america is isreals bitch.

lol

unequivocally nothing will come of that

Israel has far more support from elected Democrats, Republicans and ordinary citizens.. if anyone is in the position to be forced to listen its Obama lol his phone calls didn't work on Putin and we aren't even on good terms

Oh :( I haven't seen him going this far before (I didn't follow much though), I thought it would mean something. At least he's not turning a blind eye I guess.
 
Oh :( I haven't seen him going this far before (I didn't follow much though), I thought it would mean something. At least he's not turning a blind eye I guess.


if Obama really wanted to put pressure he can just tell Israel that the US will vote yes for the next UN vote.. anything less is lip service.
 
Yes you are. Maybe it does not seem to you, but you definitely are. You are justifying IDF's actions by stretching the possibility of two fucking abandoned buildings having rockets in them to include all of Gaza buildings as potential arms depots. Hence, Israel gets to wash it's hands clean. At this point I want to ask you for evidence of mass storage of armaments under Gaza hospitals. But that's besides the fact. Whether Hamas has loaded 2 buildings or 200, it does not give IDF the right to destroy hospitals, schools and shelters. This is Israel's PR hook line and sinker. I'm not accusing you of being a parrot, but sadly you are playing to their propaganda and it's sad to see good posters getting caught up with the bad spin that is used to justify atrocities. By saying airstrikes are horrible and Hamas are adding to the confusion, you are placing the entire onus of civilian deaths on Hamas. We have already discussed and dismissed the various attempts by posters to encircle Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians a million times on three different threads. The fact is, Israel is pulling the trigger on these civilian shelters. They get the lion's share of the blame. Yes I agree with you that it does not matter whether the buildings are occupied or vacant, which is why your line of questioning whether Hamas placed the rockets before the building was vacant is irrelevant.
I could barely sleep all night after reading your comments. Even when I did sleep, I had nightmares about dead children and bombs exploding on the roof of my apartment.
I've had several such sleepless nights since this operation began. I feel so drained from the years of fighting and rounds of rockets and airstrikes that don't even pretend to lead anywhere any more. I want this to end much more than I've bothered to make clear, and last night I realized that part of the reason for not being more proactive or constructive with my criticism is that I've lost hope that things can ever truly be better between Israelis and Palestinians.

Ever since your previous reply to me in the other thread, I've been rereading everything I could find about the history of this conflict since the beginning of the twentieth century, and questioning my perception of the arab and Palestinian viewpoints. Many times in the past have I said, both to myself and out loud, that extremism, militarism and religious fanaticism on both sides are what I really wish to see expelled from this region. Rationalism, pacifism and a true desire to coexist and even thrive together are what the many good people still living there deserve, but for years now, almost every single event that has occurred in the region has managed to push those goals further out of the realm of feasibility. Recently they have felt like ideals that are so far away from the present situation that one is left helpless in the face of the obstacles that would need to be overcome.

I feel just as angry, if not more, knowing that polls show a majority of Israelis do not want the current operation to end immediately, as I do about the atrocities committed in Gaza. How can so much hate be coming from the same people who have done so much good in other areas of culture, art and science? And why does Israel, after all it has achieved, continue to take every attack against it so personally? Why is every kidnapped boy a national tragedy? Bringing myself to hate a country I have grown to love (for completely different reasons of course) feels like ripping out my right arm because it can't stop abusing my left one. I want to find a way to remove the irrational, fundamentalist and violent elements from both sides and leave the ones that stand for communication, rationalism and above all constructivism. I don't want to destroy the many good things that have been built in order to get rid once and for all of all the ugly, hateful and disgusting growths that have spread like cancerous tumors throughout the region. If such a thing is ever going to happen, the countries of the middle east will need all the international help they can get, because right now it feels like this cancer can only be treated with aggressive, potentially lethal chemotherapy.
 
Oh :( I haven't seen him going this far before (I didn't follow much though), I thought it would mean something. At least he's not turning a blind eye I guess.

I'm not really sure what Obama can do if Israel doesn't agree to the truce. I'm not sure what "putting pressure" even really means. Like what kind of pressure can Obama put on Israel, unilaterally?
 
^^^

It'll need to be at the behest of the USA and the UN. Israel won't change, not that fast at least. It'll still be a bad situation afterwards, as the two countries loathe each other. Hamas' suggest of borders ran by international troops is probably the only solution for the decades after. And any two state solution that is implemented should also force a change of government on both sides.
 
After a day in which ceasefire declarations by both sides failed to halt the violence, the people of Gaza have been burying their dead.

An Israeli air strike on a house in Gaza City on Sunday killed 75-year-old Christian woman Jalila Faraj Ayyad. At least two other people were wounded.


Christians, like other Palestinians, are suffering in Gaza.

“Peace to all with the full rights for everybody, full security, full freedom, for free Palestine,” said Alexios, a Christian Orthodox priest.

Civilians have borne the brunt of the onslaught, accounting for most of the more than 1,000 Palestinian dead. Retrieving bodies under fire is a difficult and dangerous task.

“There are a lot of people under the debris that we can’t even rescue,” said one Red Crescent worker.

“They don’t let us work. Yesterday they killed a worker inside an ambulance.”

Children are said to account for more than 200 of the dead since Israel began its offensive on July 8, with the stated intention of stopping Hamas rocket fire.

A baby died in a paediatric hospital in Atufah after Israeli forces struck close by.

..
 

Israel defended itself successfully yesterday as Hamas killed an old woman and killed a red crescent worker in an ambulance.

/irony.


Just saying stuff with the spin tells you what utter madness they want us to swallow.

What literrally happened:

IDF attacked Palestinians, killing an old woman and an ambulance worker inside an ambulance.


.

If the report is true... ;/
 
Of course they have the right to defend themselves...unfortunately that's not what they are doing here. They are asking for the right to occupy land and kill any resistance to that occupation.

Levelling whole neighbourhoods isnt self defense, nor is blowing up people in beaches and cafes. That is the doling out of punishment, not self defense.


If I've read the last few pages corrected, I do believe they were being sarcastic.
 
David Gregory had to correct himself on Sunday's "Meet The Press" after getting into a bit of trouble with a video he showed to a guest.

Gregory was speaking to Chris Gunness, the spokesperson for the UN Relief and Works Agency, about the crisis in Gaza. Gregory showed him Israeli video which he said had not been verified by NBC News and which Guinness could not even see.

“The Israelis say...that [the video] purports to show rockets being fired from a UN school,” Gregory said. “Is this accurate? Could this be happening without the UN’s knowledge, that would only bolster the Prime Minister’s point that Hamas is using civilians, using the United Nations even, in a kind of propaganda war?”

"To bring me onto a live program and expect me to comment live on air to pictures I haven't actually seen, I think anyone looking at this program would agree that's really unfair," Gunness responded.

Later in the broadcast, Gregory told viewers that, despite the Israeli claims, the UN had confirmed that the video did not, in fact, show rockets being fired from a school.

"So this is a back and forth we are not able to settle at this point," he said.

Hmm...
 
Mid-term election. Last thing the Dems want in AIPAC to throw money against them.

I don't think it's the money as much as being labeled anti semite. The sad thing is that an anti semite should never have a place in US politics, but calling anyone that disagrees with Israel an anti semite makes a mockery of all the jewish people who have suffered oppression.
 
The people MTP had on to discuss the Gaza conflict were:

Richard Engel - NBC reporter
Netanyahu - Israeli PM
Chuck Schumer - D, Israel
Chris Gunness - UNRWA spokesmen

Two staunch pro-Israel politicians, and two neutral parties. No Palestinian perspective at all.
 
I don't think it's the money as much as being labeled anti semite. The sad thing is that an anti semite should never have a place in US politics, but calling anyone that disagrees with Israel an anti semite makes a mockery of all the jewish people who have suffered oppression.

Money is a huge issue in the midterms. Most elections will be smaller local races for house seats. AIPAC can come in and drop even a few hundred Ks in these races and change the dynamic of the races.
 
The people MTP had on to discuss the Gaza conflict were:

Richard Engel - NBC reporter
Netanyahu - Israeli PM
Chuck Schumer - D, Israel
Chris Gunness - UNRWA spokesmen

Two staunch pro-Israel politicians, and two neutral parties. No Palestinian perspective at all.

But don't you understand, the neutral parties represent the palestinian perspective. The palestinian don't deserve their own perspective.
 
The people MTP had on to discuss the Gaza conflict were:

Richard Engel - NBC reporter
Netanyahu - Israeli PM
Chuck Schumer - D, Israel
Chris Gunness - UNRWA spokesmen

Two staunch pro-Israel politicians, and two neutral parties. No Palestinian perspective at all.

Because a Palestinian perspective would wreck the way they are trying to frame the discussion, that Israel fundamentally has the moral high ground.
 
Someone should put him in Gaza and let him feel how it is to live there, fucking asshole. I would be ashamed as hell if he was respresenting my country.
I don't know how ppl can keep silence about this shitt.... they are attacking the ppl on purpose to make them go against Hamas but they don't know they are with the resistance and will show them how the Arab league is just puppet for the west

here is video showing u before and after the bombing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcrYud3R94

Edit: half and hour ago... they have hit Park Beach Camp which was full of children celebrating the Eid
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Be warn dead body of the children

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bto8QfjCQAInf3B.jpg:large
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ُEdit2:
Reports of an airstrike on a taxi stand near Gaza's main Shifa hospital and casualties coming in
https://twitter.com/sharifkouddous/status/493762051899027457
 
The second quote wasn't even in the letters to his son in 1937. It was written in his diary in 1947. It was a reference to how to respond to Arab attacks. The actual quote was:

"In every [Arab] attack, prepare to strike [in response] a decisive blow, destroying the place or expelling the inhabitants and capture their place.”

Even in context this sounds abhorrent since it advocates collective punishment on a civilian population.
 
Meet the Press airs on the radio on Sunday nights here, and I was listening to it last night. When I heard this 'correction' I was so angry. Come on.

So, he's going to use the human shield excuse and blame all of the death count on Hamas.

I hope no one falls for this crap. I can't believe the nerve, so much spinning...
He spent most of his time on Meet the Press yesterday using this human shield, "they use their people to protect their missiles," rhetoric. It was really, really upsetting.
 
I really don't see how what Israel's doing to Palestine is different to what Syria did to its own people.

The weird arguments and emotive outbursts if you question the Israeli line in public seems to confirm that people need a whole new level of post-rationalization to try and square the Israeli actions with their morals.
 
I really don't see how what Israel's doing to Palestine is different to what Syria did to its own people.

The weird arguments and emotive outbursts if you question the Israeli line in public seems to confirm that people need a whole new level of post-rationalization to try and square the Israeli actions with their morals.

A lot of people don't know what Israel has been doing to Palestinians. If you keep up with current events via tv then you get a narrative, you get the sense that Israel is the victim and everyone else the bully.
 
A lot of people don't know what Israel has been doing to Palestinians. If you keep up with current events via tv then you get a narrative, you get the sense that Israel is the victim and everyone else the bully.

Both sides have their own finely crafted narrative. People end up picking one and defending it, in many cases even if it's irrational.
 
Gaza before and after satellite photos.[/url]

before.jpg


after.jpg

Every time I see photos of the destruction caused by the shelling and bombing I can't really see the "official" death toll figures being correct at all, they must be much higher :(
 
Can someone explain why the so called "human-shield" rethoric is so upsetting? Every report on that topic I've read so far seems to validate this particular point.
Hamas intentionally builds tunnel entrances leading to Isreal underneath homes and mosques(with the help of child labour), stores weapon and ammunition caches in schools(including UN schools), launches rockets from civilian homes, despite knowing that it will lead to innocent casualties. Hamas militants are using Hospitals as safehouses because they assume the IDF won't bomb these buildings. There are reports from foreign correspondents mentioning that Gaza’s main Shifa Hospital has become a de facto headquarter for Hamas leaders where they hide and give frequent interviews criticizing Isreals war crimes. There are also reports of Hamas militants dressing up as women and swaddling weapons in baby blankets. These thugs have obviously no problem with Palestinian men, women and children dying, so long as it serves their political objectives and propaganda, their spokesman even openly encourages civilians to act as human shields and to ignore IDF bomb warnings. Imho these ruthless scumbags are just as despicable as the IDF who carries out delibrate and indiscriminate airstrikes killing dozens of innocent civilians.
 
Can someone explain why the so called "human-shield" rethoric is so upsetting? Every report on that topic I've read so far seems to validate this particular point[/B]

Because Israel's using that excuse for all casualties. 4 kids playing soccer on a mostly empty beach are human shields apparently.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers-2014-07-25

"Amnesty International is monitoring and investigating such reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks."
 
Imho these ruthless scumbags are just as despicable as the IDF who carries out delibrate and indiscriminate airstrikes killing dozens of innocent civilians.
And this is why the IDF just can kill anyone! Wait.
As usual: nobody in this thread is supporting Hamas.
 
obama won't do anything, america is isreals bitch.

This.

The really annoying part is that this was actually Israel's best chance to take Hamas out.

I don't think Hamas has ever been this isolated before. Syria and Iran ditched them because of their support for the Syrian rebels and ISIS(the Syrian government actually expelled Hamas from Syria), Hezbollah ditched them for the same reason, and Egypt's pro Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas government has been replaced with a strongly anti Hamas government. Hamas's only friends, Qatar, Turkey and some elements of the Saudi government, are friends in terms of lip support and financial aid only.

Instead, Israel had to go on a genocidal rage and start bombing women and children. Both sides are fuck heads.
 
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