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[Miles Quaritch]

Any one watching sky news at the moment?

My box is rebuilding its database after a crash. What's happening?

 

[Dominican Power]

American media so blatant. Holy shit @ this lady at CNN.

 

[commedieu]

American media so blatant. Holy shit @ this lady at CNN.

Thats why I always thought that if RT is banned, so should CNN and the lot. Its all bullshit propaganda.

 

[Dash27]

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt

So, it seems to me, that you have to side with Israel here. You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land. There’s no peace to be found between those incompatible ideas. That doesn’t mean you can’t condemn specific actions on the part of the Israelis. And, of course, acknowledging the moral disparity between Israel and her enemies doesn’t give us any solution to the problem of Israel’s existence in the Middle East.

This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.

 

[Dai101]

Picture of snipers.......... at a pro-Palestine protest in Chicago:

https://twitter.com/AimanofArabia/status/493810202328571904/photo/1

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Picture of snipers.......... at a pro-Palestine protest in Chicago:

https://twitter.com/AimanofArabia/status/493810202328571904/photo/1

That seems extreme.

The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.

Sure we are.

Sure we are.

 

[Chariot]

Picture of snipers.......... at a pro-Palestine protest in Chicago:

https://twitter.com/AimanofArabia/status/493810202328571904/photo/1

Jesus Christ. Whose people are they?
I don't get who would gain from this. The american agencies and the Mossad should know that dead people in a protest in the USA isn't a good idea.
Are these pro palestinian men aiming to ignite the fire?

 

[Maninthemirror]

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt

You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land

You mean Israel's aim is to eliminate all Palestinians so there is no conflict? Because that is what sam harris is implying

Because one side IDF and one side is Hamas.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

My box is rebuilding its database after a crash. What's happening?

I just caught the end of the segment but they were interviewing a idf spokesperson? Who denied Israel attacked the hospital and is determined to wipe the terrorist state from gaza.

The spokesperson also said they would not need an independent research team in gaza because Israel have not done anything wrong.

 

[LNBL]

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt

He seems to have forgotten the part where one side lives under occupation and are being robbed of their human rights.

 

[zeroOman]

WATCH: 'We can never forgive the Arabs for making us kill children' - CBS' Schieffer quotes Golda Meir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRdrLuMl9o

BOB SCHIEFFER: Trying to understand the news of this terrible summer, it is hard to come away with any feeling but that we are in the midst of a world gone mad.

On one side of the world, an ego-driven Russian leader seems to yearn for the time of the czars, when rulers started wars on a whim or a perceived insult and if people died, so be it.

In the Middle East, the Palestinian people find themselves in the grip of a terrorist group that has embarked on a strategy to get its own children killed in order to build sympathy for its cause - a strategy that might actually be working, at least in some quarters.

Last week, I found a quote of many years ago by Golda Meir, one of Israel's early leaders, which might have been said yesterday.

We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children," she said. "But we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."

more is here http://www.haaretz.com/news/video/1.607607

my respond to this

 

[zer0blivion]

You mean Israel's aim is to eliminate all Palestinians so there is no conflict? Because that is what sam harris is implying

Because one side IDF and one side is Hamas.

The Gaza massacre is the price of a “Jewish state”
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/gaza-massacre-price-jewish-state

[Then deputy prime minister Ehud] Olmert called the unilateral solution Israel’s “great hope,” but Arnon Soffer … offered a less optimistic prognosis. “Unilateral separation doesn’t guarantee ‘peace,’” he warned, “it guarantees a Jewish-Zionist state with an overwhelming majority of Jews.” What will be the price of this achievement? The “day after unilateral separation,” Soffer said, “the Palestinians will bombard us with artillery fire – and we will have to retaliate. But at least the war will be at the fence – not in the kindergartens of Tel Aviv and Haifa.” Soffer was unambiguous about Israel’s response: “We will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire ten in response. And women and children will be killed and houses will be destroyed.” Further down the line, “when 2.5 million people live in a closed off Gaza,” Soffer predicted, “it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will be even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.”

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I just caught the end of the segment but they were interviewing a idf spokesperson? Who denied Israel attacked the hospital and is determined to wipe the terrorist state from gaza.

The spokesperson also said they would not need an independent research team in gaza because Israel have not done anything wrong.

So pretty much what they've been saying for the nearly the past two weeks?

Who was interviewing? Kay 'ignorant cunt' Burley?

 

[RedShift]

http://www.politico.com/livestream/

Israel Leadership conference

Well this is pretty anger inducing.

Like, they're just repeating obvious lies.

 

[Chariot]

WATCH: 'We can never forgive the Arabs for making us kill children' - CBS' Schieffer quotes Golda Meir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRdrLuMl9o



more is here http://www.haaretz.com/news/video/1.607607

my respond to this

Wow, that's some logic gymnastics.

 

[LNBL]

WATCH: 'We can never forgive the Arabs for making us kill children' - CBS' Schieffer quotes Golda Meir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRdrLuMl9o



more is here http://www.haaretz.com/news/video/1.607607

my respond to this

the Arabs, nice

 

[collige]

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt

It has been posted and it's full of shit.

[Note: I was not suggesting that Israel’s actions are above criticism or that their recent incursion into Gaza was necessarily justified. Nor was I saying that the status quo, wherein the Palestinians remain stateless, should be maintained. And I certainly wasn’t expressing support for the building of settlements on contested land (as I made clear below). By “siding with Israel,” I am simply recognizing that they are not the primary aggressors in this conflict. They are, rather, responding to aggression—and at a terrible cost.]

How the fuck does this make any sense? He acknowledges that the Palestinians have no country to call their own (which is a result of Israel's occupation, illegal settlements, and the US's constant UN resolution vetoes.) and that Israel is building illegal settlements on Palestinian land but somehow comes to the conclusion that Israel is not the aggressor. Not to mention how he conviently calls the stolen land "contested" even though it's clearly a case of Israeli settlers moving in and displacing the existing Palestinian residents.

 

[theignoramus]

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt

what moral cowardice. Of course Israel wants "peace", the terms it wants it on are the cause of most the strife. It wants to keep its West Bank settlements, while controlling the best land and the water resources in the area. The Palestinians can keep Ramallah, and those outside it can carve out a meager existence in the hills, living in poverty and under constant threat from the settler extremists. East Jerusalem, the Palestinian center of commerce will be fully annexed by Israel.
The people in Gaza can rot.
This is the "peace" Israel envisions.
FUCK Sam Harris. Morally, he is a fucking thug.

 

[Buzzati]

Sam Harris is a pseudo intellectual. He has no insight on this conflict at all. Human shields were used by Israel, too. And his evidence for restraint is that Israel can potentially wipe out all of the territories? That's it? This guy should stick to neuroscience and meditation. I bet that loving-kindness meditation he talks about so often lead him to approve the slaughter of innocents. What a joke.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

So pretty much what they've been saying for the nearly the past two weeks?

Who was interviewing? Kay 'ignorant cunt' Burley?

It was Martin Stanford. It was kinda scary how the IDF spokesperson had no remorse for the civilians killed in the hospital attack.

 

[Dash27]

How the fuck does this make any sense? He acknowledges that the Palestinians have no country to call their own (which is a result of Israel's occupation, illegal settlements, and the US's constant UN resolution vetoes.) and that Israel is building illegal settlements on Palestinian land but somehow comes to the conclusion that Israel is not the aggressor. Not to mention how he conviently calls the stolen land "contested" even though it's clearly a case of Israeli settlers moving in and displacing the existing Palestinian residents.

One, they didnt have a country to call their own. It was part of the Ottoman empire and then got divided up. Two, they could now have one, but they've elected a group that's kinda too terrorist/religious/nutty. While he acknowledges that building settlements isn't particularly good, it's not the same as blowing up a cafe full of Israelis with a suicide bomber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2001_.2840_bombings.29

2001 (40 bombings)
2002 (47 bombings)
2003 (23 bombings)

So yeah with that to contend with and now the whole rocket thing, I think Netanyahu said 2500? Is that right? Those, and then the tunnels instead of bomb shelters... so yeah. Pretty clear Israel would rather just be left alone. There is no benefit to what is happening right now from their perspective that I can fathom. They're losing the PR war, so it's just not accomplishing anything other than stopping the attacks.

 

[Maninthemirror]

One, they didnt have a country to call their own. It was part of the Ottoman empire and then got divided up. Two, they could now have one, but they've elected a group that's kinda too terrorist/religious/nutty. While he acknowledges that building settlements isn't particularly good, it's not the same as blowing up a cafe full of Israelis with a suicide bomber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2001_.2840_bombings.29

2001 (40 bombings)
2002 (47 bombings)
2003 (23 bombings)

So yeah with that to contend with and now the whole rocket thing, I think Netanyahu said 2500? Is that right? Those, and then the tunnels instead of bomb shelters... so yeah. Pretty clear Israel would rather just be left alone. There is no benefit to what is happening right now from their perspective that I can fathom. They're losing the PR war, so it's just not accomplishing anything other than stopping the attacks.

Neither did the Arabs and the Palestians and The Christians and the Jews.


without a proper consultation where the debate should have gone on. Israel was formed and 700,000 Arabs were expelled.

That part is over, Israel is independent and its a done deal. Arabs attacked Israel because they thought they didnt let the negotiations run through and we have the Israeli state.

Then Israel attacks first in 1967 and takes additional land, it did NOT retreat but in fact kept the land and STILL has most of the taken land and refuses to give it back. In the modern day and age, THAT 1967 land is the issue for most palestinians, they are not even bothered with 1948 for the most part, that was mostly Arabs but for palestinians it was 1967.It is an occupation realistically since 1967

 

[theignoramus]

One, they didnt have a country to call their own. It was part of the Ottoman empire and then got divided up. Two, they could now have one, but they've elected a group that's kinda too terrorist/religious/nutty. While he acknowledges that building settlements isn't particularly good, it's not the same as blowing up a cafe full of Israelis with a suicide bomber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2001_.2840_bombings.29

2001 (40 bombings)
2002 (47 bombings)
2003 (23 bombings)

So yeah with that to contend with and now the whole rocket thing, I think Netanyahu said 2500? Is that right? Those, and then the tunnels instead of bomb shelters... so yeah. Pretty clear Israel would rather just be left alone. There is no benefit to what is happening right now from their perspective that I can fathom. They're losing the PR war, so it's just not accomplishing anything other than stopping the attacks.

The settlements are being built in the West Bank, where the ruling administration is not Hamas, it is Fatah, a political entity that is extraordinarily subservient to the Israeli government.
And Fatah, for all its attempts to accommodate Israel and stamp out anti-Israeli resistance in the West Bank, has been rewarded with nothing and received settlement expansion in return.
This is because it is not Hamas or Gaza that is the obstacle to peace, it is Netanyahu, who is ideologically opposed to the creation of a viable Palestinian state.

 

[Dash27]

what moral cowardice. Of course Israel wants "peace", the terms it wants it on are the cause of most the strife. It wants to keep its West Bank settlements, while controlling the best land and the water resources in the area. The Palestinians can keep Ramallah, and those outside it can carve out a meager existence in the hills, living in poverty and under constant threat from the settler extremists. East Jerusalem, the Palestinian center of commerce will be fully annexed by Israel.
The people in Gaza can rot.
This is the "peace" Israel envisions.
FUCK Sam Harris. Morally, he is a fucking thug.

Gaza seems to be in self imposed exile. I'm not sure what their argument is. They want what? Access to pass through Israeli and Egyptian borders? How is that even sane when they launched thousands of rockets across and suicide bombed the hell out of the place when given a chance?

Then the Egyptian side is a whole other mess with religious and political implications.

The hard on for Jerusalem should be the only real sticking point in this mess.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Gaza seems to be in self imposed exile. I'm not sure what their argument is. They want what? Access to pass through Israeli and Egyptian borders? How is that even sane when they launched thousands of rockets across and suicide bombed the hell out of the place when given a chance?

Then the Egyptian side is a whole other mess with religious and political implications.

The hard on for Jerusalem should be the only real sticking point in this mess.

self imposed?


Can't trade, can't do business, can't fly, can't get out of gaza, can't visit family.

Its a fenced area. how is that self imposed.

Hamas launched rockets, not Gaza civilians, why are they not allowed to trade, export, import, travel? what have they done?

 

[GYODX]

Neither did the Arabs and the Palestians and The Christians and the Jews.


without a proper consultation where the debate should have gone on. Israel was formed and 700,000 Arabs were expelled.

That part is over, Israel is independent and its a done deal. Arabs attacked Israel because they thought they didnt let the negotiations run through and we have the Israeli state.

Then Israel attacks first in 1967 and takes additional land, it did NOT retreat but in fact kept the land and STILL has most of the taken land and refuses to give it back. In the modern day and age, THAT 1967 land is the issue for most palestinians, they are not even bothered with 1948 for the most part, that was mostly Arabs but for palestinians it was 1967.It is an occupation realistically since 1967

Because it was overwhelmingly clear the Arabs were getting ready for a war. You make it sound as if Israel was the aggressor in that war. Anybody who knows even a little bit about the circumstances that lead to the war knows that is simply not the case.

 

[collige]

While he acknowledges that building settlements isn't particularly good, it's not the same as blowing up a cafe full of Israelis with a suicide bomber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2001_.2840_bombings.29

2001 (40 bombings)
2002 (47 bombings)
2003 (23 bombings)

So yeah with that to contend with and now the whole rocket thing, I think Netanyahu said 2500? Is that right? Those, and then the tunnels instead of bomb shelters... so yeah.

That's not the point. The point is that even prior to the election of Hamas, Israel has been the aggressor in the form of blockades, illegal settlements, control of Palestinian airspace, mass arrests, destruction of innocent peoples' homes in collective punishment, etc.

Pretty clear Israel would rather just be left alone.

No, it's not clear that the want to be left alone seeing as Netanyahu has explicitly said that he has no intention of ever relinquishing IDF control over Gaza. You can't exert dominance over a population and them claim you're trying to coexist peacefully with them.

Two, they could now have one, but they've elected a group that's kinda too terrorist/religious/nutty.

The road two an actual two state solution is most certainly being hampered by Israel since their response to Hamas allying themselves with a more moderate group (Fatah) was to cancel their peace negotiations and them bomb Gaza.

There is no benefit to what is happening right now from their perspective that I can fathom. They're losing the PR war, so it's just not accomplishing anything other than stopping the attacks.

The benefit is that Israel's right wing government gets to destabilize the Palestinian government and maintain the status quo where they can continually build settlements in the West Bank and maintain full control over Gaza. To reiterate: Netanyahu does not want any Palestinian state not under the control of the IDF in either Gaza or the West Bank.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Because it was overwhelmingly clear the Arabs were getting ready for a war. You make it sound as if Israel was the aggressor in that war.

That same excuse could be made for 1948 but it isnt because assumptions like that get you nowhere. it did attack first in 1967. like just arabs did it first in 1948. But even if your point is taken into the consideration of it being a pre emptive strike in 1967, why was there no pre emption in retreating back before 1967 borders at the 7th day?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

It was Martin Stanford. It was kinda scary how the IDF spokesperson had no remorse for the civilians killed in the hospital attack.

Yeah, that's certainly I've noticed across the various interviews that the news outlets here have had with IDF/government spokespersons.

 

[GYODX]

That same excuse could be made for 1948 but it isnt because assumptions like that get you nowhere. it did attack first in 1967. like just arabs did it first in 1948

If Israel had not attacked preemptively, there would be no Israel today.

 

[Dai101]

why are they not allowed to trade, export, import, travel? what have they done?

Something something Hamas, something something right to defend, something something fuck you thats why, also HAMAS

 

[Maninthemirror]

If Israel had not attacked preemptively, there would be no Israel today.

Did Arab countries have nukes because Israel sure looked like they had the military to defend if Arab countries did attack because the Arab countries were decimated. but it still doesnt answer the question that if your point is taken as a what if, why did Israel not retereat to the pre-1967 border at the 7th day.

 

[zer0blivion]

Netanyahu: America is Easy to Push Around http://youtu.be/z6KLFrye9Xk

Tricky Bibi
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/tricky-bibi-1.302053

Israel has had many rightist leaders since Menachem Begin promised "many Elon Morehs," but there has never been one like Netanyahu, who wants to do it by deceit, to mock America, trick the Palestinians and lead us all astray. The man in the video betrays himself in his own words as a con artist, and now he is again prime minister of Israel. Don't try to claim that he has changed since then. Such a crooked way of thinking does not change over the years.

And how did he do it? He recalled how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he choose those same locations, such as the whole of the Jordan Valley, for example. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," he boasts. The real Netanyahu also brags about his knowledge of America: "I know what America is. America is something that can be moved easily."

Here's another article about the video.
Video: Netanyahu brags he deceived US to destroy Oslo accords
http://electronicintifada.net/content/video-netanyahu-brags-he-deceived-us-destroy-oslo-accords/8934

He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd.”

He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats.

The contemptuous view of Washington Netanyahu demonstrates in the film will confirm the suspicions of many observers — including Palestinian leaders — that his current professions of good faith should not be taken seriously.

 

[m_shortpants]

WATCH: 'We can never forgive the Arabs for making us kill children' - CBS' Schieffer quotes Golda Meir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRdrLuMl9o



more is here http://www.haaretz.com/news/video/1.607607

my respond to this

That GIF says it all.

 

[GYODX]

Even with the blockade, Hamas still managed to get 600,000 tons of concrete to build its tunnels into Israel. Think about that next time you try to claim the blockade doesn't let Hamas build bomb shelters for its civilians.

 

[deathkiller]

There is no benefit to what is happening right now from their perspective that I can fathom. They're losing the PR war, so it's just not accomplishing anything other than stopping the attacks.

Some in the Israeli government hope that one day the Palestinian that are pro-Hamas or pro-Palestinian state leave Gaza (in exchange of money) and the rest become Israelis. In the mean time they hope that after this war (or the next one) they will fear more Israel than hate Israel.

Provably most of the Israel government don't think that either will happen and only want to protect the status quo.

 

[kmag]

Because it was overwhelmingly clear the Arabs were getting ready for a war. You make it sound as if Israel was the aggressor in that war. Anybody who knows even a little bit about the circumstances that lead to the war knows that is simply not the case.

Marshalling forces isn't an act of war, so yes in actual fact Israel was the aggressor.

Actually, the normal justification given by Israel to keep up the 'never attacked a neighbour first fallacy' was the partial blockade of Straits of Tiran by Egypt. Before that Israel had raided the West Bank (controlled by Jordan) and continually violated Syrian airspace leading to some air to air battles.

It's funny how Egypt was the aggressor when it blockaded Israel, but when Israel blockades Gaza it's the Palestinians who are the aggressor.

 

[Dash27]

Neither did the Arabs and the Palestians and The Christians and the Jews.


without a proper consultation where the debate should have gone on. Israel was formed and 700,000 Arabs were expelled.

That part is over, Israel is independent and its a done deal. Arabs attacked Israel because they thought they didnt let the negotiations run through and we have the Israeli state.

Then Israel attacks first in 1967 and takes additional land, it did NOT retreat but in fact kept the land and STILL has most of the taken land and refuses to give it back. In the modern day and age, THAT 1967 land is the issue for most palestinians, they are not even bothered with 1948 for the most part, that was mostly Arabs but for palestinians it was 1967.It is an occupation realistically since 1967

Now that is an incredibly over simplified version of1967. Here's a decent, short recount of events and insight as to why they want settlers so badly:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7381322.stm

 

[Kinitari]

Even with the blockade, Hamas still managed to get 600,000 tons of concrete to build its tunnels into Israel. Think about that next time you try to claim the blockade doesn't let Hamas build bomb shelters for its civilians.

They probably snuck that concrete in using the tunnels they built. Those tunnels, while -absolutely- have been used to conduct terrorist attacks, are also a lifeline for Gaza, and are actually a part of Gaza culture from before Israel was a thing.

These tunnels do not, even in the slightest, justify the blockade - and if anything they highlight one of the fundamental issues of the blockade, they force the transport of goods literally underground.

 

[GYODX]

Did Arab countries have nukes because Israel sure looked like they had the military to defend if Arab countries did attack because the Arab countries were decimated. but it still doesnt answer the question that if your point is taken as a what if, why did Israel not retereat to the pre-1967 border at the 7th day.

One of the reasons Israel was able to win so decisively was because they virtually destroyed the Egyptian air force in the preemptive attack.

why did Israel not retereat to the pre-1967 border at the 7th day.

Their argument is that the previous borders put Israel in an indefensible position.

And you were wrong when you said that Israel was still holding on to most of the land it took. Israel gave Egypt the Sinai back when they negotiated a peace agreement. The Sinai was by far the biggest piece of land Israel conquered in the war. They were even willing to give back the Golan Heights to the Syrians if they were willing to negotiate a peace agreement as well.

 

[Maninthemirror]

One of the reasons Israel was able to win so decisively was because they virtually destroyed the Egyptian air force in the preemptive attack.



Their argument is that the previous borders put Israel in an indefensible position.

And you were wrong when you said that Israel was still holding on to most of the land it took. Israel gave Egypt the Sinai back when they negotiated a peace agreement. The Sinai was by far the biggest piece of land Israel conquered in the war. They were even willing to give back the Golan Heights to the Syrians if they were willing to negotiate a peace agreement as well.

1. The arab armies were decimated, how were they at that point at an indefensible position.

2. Even if your argument is taken into consideration for it being a indefensible position, how are they STILL in an indefensible position. Why not go back today?

Now that is an incredibly over simplified version of1967. Here's a decent, short recount of events and insight as to why they want settlers so badly:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7381322.stm

thats exactly what I wrote. Israel took the land it invaded during the preemeptive strike and still has it. it has not gone back. that is the crux of the modern issue of land rights.

 

[GYODX]

Marshalling forces isn't an act of war, so yes in actual fact Israel was the aggressor.

Actually, the normal justification given by Israel to keep up the 'never attacked a neighbour first fallacy' was the partial blockade of Straits of Tiran by Egypt. Before that Israel had raided the West Bank (controlled by Jordan) and continually violated Syrian airspace leading to some air to air battles.

It's funny how Egypt was the aggressor when it blockaded Israel, but when Israel blockades Gaza it's the Palestinians who are the aggressor.

Egyptian rhetoric combined with its actions prior to the war made it clear that they were on the verge of waging war on Israel. I suggest you read over the Wikipedia article for a quick introduction.

Nasser responded by taking three successive steps that made war virtually inevitable: he deployed his troops in Sinai near Israel's border on 14 May; expelled the UNEF from the Gaza Strip and Sinai on 19 May; and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping on 22 May.

 

[Dash27]

That's not the point. The point is that even prior to the election of Hamas, Israel has been the aggresor in the form of blockades, illegal settlements, control of Palestinian airspace, mass arrests, destruction of innocent peoples' homes in collective punishment, etc. And no, it's not clear that the want to be left alone seeing as Netanyahu has explicitly said that he has no intention of ever relinquishing IDF control over Gaza. You can't exert dominance over a population and them claim you're trying to coexist peacefully with them. And finally, the road two an actual two state solution is most certainly being hampered since their response to Hamas allying themselves with a more moderate group (Fatah) was to cancel their peace negotiations and them bomb Gaza.

Before the election of Hamas was like 10 years ago. Hamas started a suicide bombing campaign after Oslo, for example, among other acts of not-niceness. So yes you'd tend to want to ... stop that. And no you'd not want to let people in and out of your borders that may do that, so checkpoints and finally closing the border, walls, iron dome and everything else. i.e. defensive measures not aggressors.

 

[Buzzman]

Even with the blockade, Hamas still managed to get 600,000 tons of concrete to build its tunnels into Israel. Think about that next time you try to claim the blockade doesn't let Hamas build bomb shelters for its civilians.

Excellent argument there, since Hamas regularly "violates" the blockade it's okay. If they complied, would the blockade then suddenly be more heinous?

Also, please explain to me how they are getting the concrete into Gaza in the first place.

 

[Dash27]

They probably snuck that concrete in using the tunnels they built. Those tunnels, while -absolutely- have been used to conduct terrorist attacks, are also a lifeline for Gaza, and are actually a part of Gaza culture from before Israel was a thing.

These tunnels do not, even in the slightest, justify the blockade - and if anything they highlight one of the fundamental issues of the blockade, they force the transport of goods literally underground.

This is incorrect:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...2d1d9e-1284-11e4-8936-26932bcfd6ed_story.html

THE DISTINGUISHING feature of the latest war between Israel and Hamas is “offensive tunnels,” as the Israeli army calls them. As of early Wednesday, 28 had been uncovered in Gaza, and nearly half extend into Israel, according to Israeli officials. The tunnels are the reason that the government of Benjamin Netanyahu decided last weekend to launch a ground invasion of Gaza, and they explain why that operation has strong support from Israelis in spite of the relatively heavy casualties it has inflicted. Most significantly, the tunnels show why it has been difficult to reach a cease-fire and why any accord must forge a new political and security order in Gaza.

Hamas’s offensive tunnels should not be confused with the burrows it has dug under Gaza’s border with Egypt to smuggle money, consumer goods and military equipment. The newly discovered structures have only one conceivable purpose: to launch attacks inside Israel. Three times in recent days, Hamas fighters emerged from the tunnels in the vicinity of Israeli civilian communities, which they clearly aimed to attack. The ­concrete-lined structures are stocked with materials, such as handcuffs and tranquilizers, that could be used on hostages. Other tunnels in northern Gaza are designed for the storage and firing of missiles at Israeli cities.

The resources devoted by Hamas to this project are staggering, particularly in view of Gaza’s extreme poverty. By one Israeli account, the typical tunnel cost $1 million to build over the course of several years, using tons of concrete desperately needed for civilian housing. By design, many of the tunnels have entrances in the heavily populated Shijaiyah district, where the Israeli offensive has been concentrated. One was found underneath al-Wafa hospital, where Hamas also located a command post and stored weapons, according to Israeli officials.

 

[deanfrag]

Neither did the Arabs and the Palestians and The Christians and the Jews.


without a proper consultation where the debate should have gone on. Israel was formed and 700,000 Arabs were expelled.

That part is over, Israel is independent and its a done deal. Arabs attacked Israel because they thought they didnt let the negotiations run through and we have the Israeli state.

Then Israel attacks first in 1967 and takes additional land, it did NOT retreat but in fact kept the land and STILL has most of the taken land and refuses to give it back. In the modern day and age, THAT 1967 land is the issue for most palestinians, they are not even bothered with 1948 for the most part, that was mostly Arabs but for palestinians it was 1967.It is an occupation realistically since 1967

FALSE.
Israel offered to give the land back to Jordan (Yes, Israel took the land from JORDAN in 1967) and Jordan refused.

 

[Buzzman]

Before the election of Hamas was like 10 years ago. Hamas started a suicide bombing campaign after Oslo, for example, among other acts of not-niceness. So yes you'd tend to want to ... stop that. And no you'd not want to let people in and out of your borders that may do that, so checkpoints and finally closing the border, walls, iron dome and everything else. i.e. defensive measures not aggressors.

Hamas stopped using suicide bombers almost 10 years ago, how is this relevant?

 

[Dash27]

thats exactly what I wrote. Israel took the land it invaded during the preemeptive strike and still has it. it has not gone back. that is the crux of the modern issue of land rights.

Egypt, Syria and pals instigated that war and massed on their borders calling for the death of the jews and other random nonsense while expelling UN forces and blockading trade routes. Israel won the war and kept some land, giving back much of it (Sanai back to Egypt for one large example). Just as the British won the land from the Ottomans and kept, then divided it up. So yeah that's how that goes.

 

[Dash27]

Hamas stopped using suicide bombers almost 10 years ago, how is this relevant?

Hamas was stopped from using that method by closing the border and walls and other defensive measures, then moved on to rockets and kidnappings. And how much would you trust a group that did that? Is this a serious question?

 

[Goliath]

Hamas stopped using suicide bombers almost 10 years ago, how is this relevant?

Question is why did they stop? It's not like they value life any more then in the past. They still appreciate the myrtar system. Most likely they "stopped" because Israel cracked down on it's defense of the boarders. I am sure if they could they still would try to blow up civilians with an IED, but so far they have to rely on blindly shooting rockets.