2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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Dash27 said:
Haven't seen this posted here yet:

Sam Harris: "Why I don't criticize Israel."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Excerpt
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I posted it before, the worst part about Sam Harris and by extension the New Atheist movement (Richard Dawkins is already defending the article on twitter for example) is they are going hide behind their bigotry through the cover of intellectual posturing... much like how Christopher Hitchens did with his views on the iraq war.

The biggest problem with how the conflict is framed in that article is it's FRAMED as religion being the primary issue in the conflict and not actually addressing the fundamental human rights that are at stake and political historical context.
 
Goliath said:
Do you think the U.S. would have pulled out of Iraq after we tore up the government, settled it and destabalized the area if Iraq was in proximity to us like Mexico. Heck no.
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You're right. We call it Texas. And that's precisely the point. Eventually Israel is going to have to give up the ghost, and call it Israel.

Then comes the hard part. Equal voting rights, or pariah status.

There never is, or was, a two state solution. That's somehow still a dirty secret. But it's just a way to misdirect the UN's pretense of international law. We can't have settler colonialism post Geneva, so we have to pretend we're not doing exactly what it looks like we're doing, until reaching "the point of no return". Which brings me to Israel's rejectionism.

I am against the illegal settlements. I think they should real those extremists in. However I don't think that would stop the hatred..
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See, that's the crux right there. This means we have to end the conversation. Even though a political solution is always on the table, Israel has 'no one to negotiate with'. And so the beat goes on. The only country on planet earth with theoretical borders. There is no conversation, in the scheme of things. Just land for the taking.
 
Professor Ilan Pappé: Israel Has Chosen to be a "Racist Apartheid State" with U.S. Support
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/28/professor_ilan_pappe_israel_has_chosen

As the Palestinian death toll tops 1,000 in Gaza, we are joined from Haifa by Israeli professor and historian Ilan Pappé. "I think Israel in 2014 made a decision that it prefers to be a racist apartheid state and not a democracy," Pappé says. "It still hopes that the United States will license this decision and provide it with the immunity to continue, with the necessary implication of such a policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians wherever they are." A professor of history and the director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter, Pappé is the author of several books, including most recently, "The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge."
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This shit really pisses me off...like kicking a person when he's down.

ZvOMQ1b.png
 
zer0blivion said:
Here's another source:
Netanyahu: Israel Prepared For 'Long Operation' In Gaza
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...hu-israel-prepared-for-long-operation-in-gaza
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Yeah, I'd already read about it. Just thought the choice of source was funny.

I just think it's ridiculous how the BBC and CNN are accused of pro-Israeli bias for what they choose to highlight, yet you can link to sources that employ obvious sensationalism and use loaded words and nobody bats an eye.

It's time to be honest and admit that you are not looking for balanced reporting, just bias in the other direction.
 
Dai101 said:
Yeah. Specially since he's a peace loving motherfucker, how can he say that right?
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You see, unlike Hamas, Israel care about innocent lives.
Can Israel avoid civilian deaths in Gaza offensive?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-israel-avoid-civilian-deaths-in-gaza-offensive/
"The difference between us is that we're using missile defense to protect our civilians and they're using their civilians to protect their missiles," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday. "Naturally, they're responsible for all the civilian deaths that occur accidentally. We're sorry for any accidental civilian deaths, but it's the Hamas that bears complete responsibility for such civilian causalities."
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And ppl still asking why alot of Arab hate the USA or let's say the Gov of the USA.... because of these shitt.

look how the USA deal with the Ukrainian problem, and see how they don't care about the Palestine,
 
It's a pretty good talking point, considering how America has its own issue killing civilians with our drone program. Really sad to see how good they are at manipulating my country though. :/
 
zer0blivion said:
Professor Ilan Pappé: Israel Has Chosen to be a "Racist Apartheid State" with U.S. Support
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/28/professor_ilan_pappe_israel_has_chosen
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It wasn't much of a choice. As I've attempted to explain previously, they had to 'choose' between oppressing a bunch of people few actually care enough to act about, and the eventual start of a brutal civil war that would've torn apart Israel. They had to 'choose' between bombing Palestinians or having the reborn Irgun/Lehi randomly machinegun people in Haifa cafes some years in the future (if their demands would start being repeatedly unmet, as would be the case in any situation involving non-lip-service accomodation of Palestinian requests). After all, an ultra-rightwing nutbag shot Rabin. And there are more potential Yigal Amirs today than back in '95.

The unfortunates in Gaza suffer because of this shittacular failure of internal politics (though in a sense, it is also a one-sided success: the Israeli government has managed to externalise this long-term issue).
 
cackhyena said:
Long read, but Sam Harris is a dude I follow and agree with for the most part.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
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This has been brought up a lot in the thread, and people haven't responded well to it. One of the things he apparently says in the end of his post in an update is like "Yeah, I am not condoning Israel's anti-humanitarian actions, or it's blockade, or all the civilian deaths. I just think one side is more in line with Western ideals than the other".

Which is... I can't even begin to comprehend how offensive that is. Essentially, I will not criticize Israel for all these heinous things I acknowledge it has committed because I think their values are more western. Like... fuck off, and imagine that being used in any other situation. I imagine he would attempt to rationally tear it apart if anyone else said it, but in this case irrationality goes out the window.

edit: this is the gem, I slightly misrepresented it

Note: I was not suggesting that Israel’s actions are above criticism or that their recent incursion into Gaza was necessarily justified. Nor was I saying that the status quo, wherein the Palestinians remain stateless, should be maintained. And I certainly wasn’t expressing support for the building of settlements on contested land (as I made clear below). By “siding with Israel,” I am simply recognizing that they are not the primary aggressors in this conflict. They are, rather, responding to aggression—and at a terrible cost.
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He mentions how they are stateless, and are being unjustly attacked, and how things like settlement buildings shouldn't be supported - however all these things are not aggressive. The 'primary aggressor' in this conflict to him is the Hamas government. Even if we ignore the fact that prolonged occupation and blockades are literally considered aggressive acts in pretty much every legal way, this started with Israel arrested a shitton of people unjustly, to which Hamas retaliated with rockets (not condoning the rockets, just highlighting the order of operations here) - unless he thinks that is not an aggressive action.
 
zeroOman said:
And ppl still asking why alot of Arab hate the USA or let's say the Gov of the USA.... because of these shitt.

look how the USA deal with the Ukrainian problem, and see how they don't care about the Palestine,
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Your own Arab governments don't care about the Palestinian people either.

EDIT: I made the assumption that you are living in a nation on the Arabian Peninsula. I shouldn't make assumptions.
 
Kinitari said:
I guess that explains that UNRWA tweet from earlier.



"Your own" ? Is ZeroOman living in an Arabian country? I didn't get that from his post.
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I think he means in general. I'd figure some of the heavy hitting (politically speaking) Arab countries would do.. something, or say something. I get the inference, if that's it..and not to make any bold statements, but in general. These people are fucking alone, and they look/sound/believe the same things quite a lot of more powerful regions do. The world is just watching israel do this, and excuse it because of money.
 
Missiles have struck several sites in Gaza, including a park inside a refugee camp and an outpatient building of the strip's largest hospital, disrupting a relative lull at the start of the Muslim Eid al-Fitr holiday.

Eight people, including seven children, died following missile fire on a park inside the Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, medics said.

The children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park, Ayman Sahabani, the head of the emergency room at Shifa hospital, told reporters.


Munzer al-Derby, 35, who witnessed the strike, told Al Jazeera: "The kids were playing on the wheel... A rocket fell and cut them apart."

"I know some of them. They were from Al-Helou family who left their homes in Shujayea (east Gaza city, where massive artillery fire destroyed neighbourhoods). They came here and rented an apartment last week." al-Derby said.

The Israeli army swiftly denied it was behind the strike, tweeting that a misfired rocket from Gaza had hit the playground.

"We had no activity in the area. We know it was launched from within Gaza and landed short," Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, an Israeli army spokesman, said.

However Hamas denied it had fired any rockets in the area and said it was "categorically an airstrike by Israel". It said it had collected schrapnel from the scene that it could prove was from an Israeli munition.

Medics said that an Israeli missile also hit a building, believed to be an outpatient clinic, close to the main gate of Shifa hospital, the same hospital where the victims of the playground strike were taken.

Al Jazeera's Imtiaz Tyab, reporting from the hospital, said there were chaotic scenes as "a number of small bodies were brought into this hospital".

"It's believed that because it's been relatively calm, many of these children went outside to enjoy themselves on this Eid holiday but tragically they've been killed," Tyab said.

At least another five Palestinians, including three children, were killed in other attacks on Monday. A four-year-old boy died when tank shells hit his family's house in Jabalia, in the northern Gaza Strip, Gaza health officials said. Another person was killed by tank shelling in a separate incident, also in Jabalia.
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...l-resumes-gaza-strikes-20147281452469626.html

New tactic in war? Deny you were bombing the place?
 
If this was happening somewhere else it would have been declared a genocide by now.

Identify a separate group of people based on race, ethnicity, religion
It is either "us" or "them" mentality
Organized, either participation from government forces themselves or trained militia
Identify victims and target them
Deny you are doing anything wrong
 
Kinitari said:
A part of me almost believes that it wasn't the IDF that bombed that playground because how goddamn idiotic would they have to be to do that? Beyond words. Beyond words to do that and then deny it. It is so unbelievable it is almost more believable that both these attacks were misfires from Gaza itself.
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After they tried to deny any involvement with the UNRWA shelling, it should be pretty obvious that the IDF is not a trustworthy source anymore in this war. I'd rather them not saying anything about this war, than make it a ridiculous affair of denying their own attacks in which they are killing innocent civilians. 7 Children were murdered, 7.
 
Dai101 said:
Full of shit. "yeah, they're suffering, being sytematically killed and deprived of their basic human rights but fuck the them because they believe in god and are muslims and i don't like it". Fuck him. And he calls himself an atheist?? FUCK HIM EVEN MORE.
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Yeah, there's some bastards in the atheist community.
What happened to looking after everyone because this is the only life we get?

EDIT: What does everyone think of this? LINK

Conclusion said:
So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.
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Kinitari said:
A part of me almost believes that it wasn't the IDF that bombed that playground because how goddamn idiotic would they have to be to do that? Beyond words. Beyond words to do that and then deny it. It is so unbelievable it is almost more believable that both these attacks were misfires from Gaza itself.
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They've already done this before. They hope the fallout from the individual incident will have gone by the time the truth comes out.
 
Hackworth said:
Yeah, there's some bastards in the atheist community.
What happened to looking after everyone because this is the only life we get?
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EXACTLY. And that was really angered me. I'm an atheist and can't stand that line of thought. Just fuck him, not wasting more of my internet time with that scumbag.

Israel Unveils New Defense System To Deflect Accusations Of Human Rights Violations

http://www.theonion.com/video/israe...um=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Pic:1:Default
 
LNBL said:
After they tried to deny any involvement with the UNRWA shelling, it should be pretty obvious that the IDF is not a trustworthy source anymore in this war. I'd rather them not saying anything about this war, than make it a ridiculous affair of denying their own attacks in which they are killing innocent civilians. 7 Children were murdered, 7.
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Yep. If I had any trust for the IDF before, they lost it with that shit.
 
a2982d9aae12eb5385f46072872077b7.png


Dubbedinenglish said:
So much restraint! They only leveled the residential area in one hour. The IDF could've done that in minutes!
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Anyone that still believe Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties is afraid of facing reality or just blind. I don't have any other way of putting that, it's right in front of our eyes.
 
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