I'd be keen to see some, ones I've seen may be out of date
Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
- Start date
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I'd be keen to see some, ones I've seen may be out of date
QuicheFontaine
Member
I've never heard anyone argue this. I think you might have some sort of complex?
bit harsh?
What?
Nope? They have the opportunity to breakaway and create their own future, more fitting for a small, left leaning country.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Sorry, but this just sounds like a load of imperialistic toss to me. Are you saying that the silly Scottish wouldn't know what to do with themselves without the guidance of the benevolent English or what? And why would losing the pound sterling be an utter disaster for them? Hundreds of other nations make do without it just fine.
I do agree that they should take their chance. Some people just like the status quo though...
No not really as we're apparently the only small country in the world incapable of running it's own affairs. Apparently within a couple of years we'll have went feral and it'll be like Mad Max up here.
The actual phrase is a summation of the arguments presented to why Scotland is better off as part of the UK. You know the ones where there are no real actual positives just a bunch of scare stories. While I doubt anyone has actually uttered the phrase seriously, it's been used by nationalists up here as summation of the arguments presented against independence.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
For those of you who don't know, these idiot separatists think they can walk away from the UK and still take advantage of using it's institutions...such as keeping the pound sterling as their currency and having the rest of the UK act as guarantor to fund their Scandinavian lifestyle fantasies, at the same time as lowering corporation tax to attract big business away from the UK.
Lol..you won't, not by a long shot:
..and you won't have any control over sterling if you leave...
Lol..you won't, not by a long shot:
..and you won't have any control over sterling if you leave...
Yeah pretty sure no one of any import in the no vote camp has ever claimed that Scotland couldn't survive as an independent country, just that it would be better off as part of the UK. Hence why the No campaign is called Better Together, not Vote No Or We're Doomed.
This is pretty dumb.
For those of you who don't know, these idiot separatists think they can walk away from the UK and still take advantage of using it's institutions...such as keeping the pound sterling as their currency and having the rest of the UK act as guarantor to fund their Scandinavian lifestyle fantasies, at the same time as lowering corporation tax to attract big business away from the UK.
Lol..you won't, not by a long shot:
..and you won't have any control over sterling if you leave...
That's great we'll just take our 9.4% and our £40 billion net contribution to Sterlings balance of payments ledger and go on our way.
Where in Cumbria shall we dump the nukes?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Who is saying these things??
I should've known.
Suggesting that it would be a poor decision to split up the UK does not equate to saying Scottish people are stupid. Appealing to this petty mindset of "They think you're stupid" is just trying to win a Yes vote on the back of some let's-stick-it-to-the-English sentiment. Poor form.
Yeah, but it's a bit like saying all the people of Gaza deserve what they get for not doing enough to stop Hamas
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Yeah well done...practising the well known separatist dance of shifting the goalposts and ignoring the matter at hand.
It won't wash...you've lost this referendum because of the absurd level of economic illiteracy you've shown in thinking that the rest of the UK owes you a living after walking away.
QuicheFontaine
Member
No not really. If it were up to me, we'll take our proportional share of UK assets and go on our way. Short term we can use sterling in a dollarisation setup before moving on to either a standalone currency or to the Euro if necessary.
If you think that suddenly losing 9% of the assets unpinning Sterling and doubling the balance of payments deficit won't hurt the rUK then have a happy.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Oh really, just how would you go about doing that exactly?...send the Scottish Army across the border to seize them?
Or are you under the impression there's £160 billion pounds worth of UK assets present in Scotland?
Lol..you haven't got a clue and need to grow up because a country of 5m does not get to dictate terms to a country of 60m.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Lol..you won't, not by a long shot:
..and you won't have any control over sterling if you leave...
Lol, that's an argument FOR independence, not against. If they leave they would get their OWN currency, which they would have full control over, rather than how it is currently with the sterling which they don't have control over.
The people for independence who would want to keep the sterling are sentimental, ignorant buffoons.
Well, if this is representative of the attitude of the English towards the Scottish, then no wonder they would want to leave.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
..it's official SNP policy to keep Sterling and they've based their whole separation campaign on keeping it.
You're not from around these parts are you...
BertramCooper
Banned
I probably should have said "nationality" instead of ethnicity.
Though the queen mum was pretty thoroughly English, from what I remember reading, so I'd probably feel safe calling her ethnically English on that side, at least.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I'm not.
And I know that that's their official stance. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense. The only reasons for keeping the sterling are sentimental. They would be much better off with their own fiat currency that they can mint and borrow in at will, rather than being reliant on another country's currency. It's much easier to compete if you have your own currency and can depreciate during economic slumps. As an analogue, look at how EU countries with their own currency (i.e. without the Euro) are doing compared to EU countries without their own currency (i.e. stuck with the Euro).
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Welcome to the fantasy world of Scottish separatism...where 'Independence' means leaving the UK, only to give full control of your currency and economic policy...to the UK.
It's great...and these clowns wonder why they aren't taken seriously outside their own little bubble of separatism.
It was a response to the poster who said
"If Scots vote against their own independence, I hope the UK politicians fuck them over massively as it'll be no more than they deserve."
Britain has a long history of "fucking people over, massively", up to and including the tacit approval of the current actions in Gaza.
They have no control as it stands. At least with the threat to England's nuclear arsenal they know we'll look favourably on their terms for currency union (despite whatever the dipshits in Westminster say for the cameras).
Get with the program man; fuck the UK, vote for Scotland and England.
shadyspace
Banned
Man this is really interesting.
BertramCooper
Banned
The entire independence proposal just seems kind of half-baked to me. They want independence, but they want to keep the pound. Oh, and the monarchy, too. How independent do you truly want to be, Scotland?
I understand the historic and emotional reasons a lot of Scots want independence, but the proposal seems like an obvious net loss to me.
Barring a pretty huge shift, it seems pretty clear that independence is going to get voted down. But if the outcome is close enough, could Scotland coax a few more devolved powers out of Westminster? Is that a possibility?
It's not like they haven't been fucked over royally for years now, and why wouldn't it continue if they vote against their own independence?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
It makes me laugh when people like you think the issue of Trident gives them a 'get out of jail card for free' option.
Imagine the scenario...Salmond threatens the UK with expelling Trident from Scotland..(not that he could actually do that anyway) the UK then turns around and says 'fine, we'll veto your membership of the UN, EU, NATO, WTO and the IMF and every other international organisation a country like Scotland needs to be part of in order to function in the modern world.
No matter how big a stick the separatists like to think they have with Trident, the UK could hit them back where it really hurts..in their pockets.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
Even if it wasn't close, I would say greater devolution of powers is inevitable, with the interesting question being how far you go on the devolution spectrum and how you define devolution max.
CyclopsRock
Member
At the moment the Scottish MPs have the exact same degree of control over the BoE as any other random selection of seats of the same number as Scotland posses - just like literally every aspect of democracy.
QuicheFontaine
Member
A currency union is not on the table. The chancellor and shadow chancellors across all parties have been clear about that.
CyclopsRock
Member
Also, I don't think many serious positions in this debate really think Scotland couldn't make an entirely decent, modern, healthy country. The question is whether the people of Scotland would be better off with that situation, or the current one. So I'm not sure where all these "you lot think we're too small etc, you're wrong!" Arguments actually come from.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Are you even keeping up chap?....further powers have already been agreed and come into effect from 2016.
The majority of the people of Scotland are perfectly happy with the devolved settlement, it's just the usual loud mouth minority that have forced this separation issue to the fore, because for them, it's about more than the Scottish Parliament and it's powers, it's about tribal identity & nationalism and still fighting battles from the 18th century.
The inferiority complex displayed by the hard core separatists is truly sad...they have the mindset of belonging to a conquered people and only independence can set them 'free'.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Lol...it all came from the SNP finance minister John Swinney who first coined the phrase.
StealthGoblin
Banned
I think that if the Scots do try to use the removal of Trident as leverage then morally, all politicians involved are twats. Messing with National Security and putting people's lives at risk because one side hasn't thought through their fiscal policy (could be either side) is ridiculous.
My position is:
In the event of a Yes vote, Scotland doesn't get to use Sterling (having an independent country having the technical ability to affect rates etc is not on)
In the event of a No vote, they can keep Sterling.
Fucking with Nuclear weapons and using them as bargaining chips is morally intolerable.
If they want them moved, fine. A plan will need to be drawn up that will keep the maximum number of people safe. I'm totally fine with that.
My position is:
In the event of a Yes vote, Scotland doesn't get to use Sterling (having an independent country having the technical ability to affect rates etc is not on)
In the event of a No vote, they can keep Sterling.
Fucking with Nuclear weapons and using them as bargaining chips is morally intolerable.
If they want them moved, fine. A plan will need to be drawn up that will keep the maximum number of people safe. I'm totally fine with that.
CyclopsRock
Member
I said serious positions
The "serious" version of that argument is whether the nationalist movement is putting too much stock or faith or what have you into the North Sea oil revenues.
Maybe you should look in this very thread, where advocates of independence are accused of being idiots, clowns, illiterate, and have fantasies and inferiority complexes.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I honestly hadn't until that Defibkiller guy came along!
hydrophilic attack
Member
While I agree with the argument that it's a bit silly to only want to keep certain aspects of being in a union you belong to, I do find it a bit ironic that the British, of all people, are making that argument.
OverlordSteph
Banned
Hundreds of other countries have not had their Fiscal and economical policies based around the pound have they 0_o. Scotland's Economy is intertwined with the UKs economy. If they lose the Pound its not going to go work out very well for them put simply.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm genuinely confused about what you're referring to here.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm gonna guess the UK's attempt to renegotiate terms with the EU.
CyclopsRock
Member
Aah right - yeah, that makes sense! Well, the situations are, as they say, "different".
Yes, it is. They're lying for effect now, but the Unionists will compromise when it comes down to it. It's the worst kept secret of the entire campaign.
It's not really comparable, since the UK went toes-only into the EU from the very beginning. Scotland and England became a united kingdom with the complete understanding that they were essentially merging into a single nation. The UK has never been interested in complete integration into the EU.
I don't really see how this is possible, given that Sterling is only used in territories of the UK. I don't think an exception will be made for any former territory no matter its status, simply due the risk of diluting/losing control over it.
It really isn't, and I do think you are massively misportrayimg the circumstances by claiming it is. Any party which enters into a currency union with Scotland after a vote for independence *dies* in this country. My father has been a tory voter his entire life, he has stood as a Tory councillor, and he's even from the modernising wing of the party. To quote him, the day cameron agrees to a currency union is the day he quits his membership and votes for ed milliband.
Regardless of pro's and cons of the entire independence debate, you are ignoring the very real realities of the fact there is almost no upside to a currency union for the remainder of the UK, and a huge amount of downsides. It's not happening, stop pretending it is. Independent Scotland can use the pound as much as it wants,but there won't be a currency union.
Regardless of pro's and cons of the entire independence debate, you are ignoring the very real realities of the fact there is almost no upside to a currency union for the remainder of the UK, and a huge amount of downsides. It's not happening, stop pretending it is. Independent Scotland can use the pound as much as it wants,but there won't be a currency union.
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