Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Walmart

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AggroWill said:
And I'll say again, I want to see the security video. I'm not going to blindly trust the reports of the cops who shot him or the people who called the cops on him when I know there was a camera pointed at him and every other shopper in the store because it's Wal-Mart. I'll be more willing to believe accounts if they match what's on the video, but as it is it's pretty easy to misremember, rationalize, or outright lie about what happened if the person giving the account feels emotionally or legally culpable for the shooting.
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Obviously. I'm actually shocked at the lack of media available for such a public encounter. The 911 call seems to be the most at the scene part of the puzzle.

All I was trying to do was cobble together information, as a very high percentage of this thread is simply about race. Something I haven't mentioned until now.
 
Pbae said:
I never stated that I thought they were toys, only that I was under the assumption that pellet guns still needed to have the orange muzzle.
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No, they are never sold with an orange tip.

GAMO AIRGUNS ARE NOT TOYS. GAMO AIRGUNS ARE RECOMMENDED FOR USE BY THOSE 16 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER. ADULT SUPERVISION REQUIRED. MISUSE OR CARELESS USE MAY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY. DO NOT BRANDISH OR DISPLAY YOUR AIRGUN IN PUBLIC. IT MAY CONFUSE PEOPLE AND IT MAY BE A CRIME. POLICE AND OTHERS MAY THINK AN AIRGUN IS A FIREARM. DO NOT CHANGE THE COLORATION OR MARKINGS TO MAKE IT LOOK MORE LIKE A FIREARM. BUYER AND USER SHOULD CONFORM TO ALL LAWS GOVERNING THE USE AND OWNERSHIP OF THEIR AIRGUN. THE PERSON HANDLING THE AIRGUN AND ANYONE NEARBY SHOULD ALWAYS WEAR PROTECTIVE EYEWEAR. READ ALL INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USING. ALWAYS USE CARE AND SHOOT SAFELY.
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http://www.crosman.com/croswords/?p=2010 < warning dead animals
 
AggroWill said:
No, but apparently when you're white and it's an actual rifle that fires bullets it's possible, safe, and legally sacred.

That's what's most fucked up about this. A guy has a pellet gun and is gunned down. Grandstanding white people afraid about the government taking their guns parade them around Wal-Mart, Target, and Denny's, carrying them openly and vocally, and they're treated like their actions are above any sort of legal scrutiny.
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This is why I like you.
 
You would think they would give you a box to put it in so you don't alarm other shoppers on your way out. Everyone that I have witnessed buying actually AR15s/Shotguns/Rifles at Walmart never just walked out with it wide in the open. Still though...
 
So was he waving the gun around at people. If the cops came in and he, for som reason, did point it at them, well it was a terrible choice but the cops were at least somewhat justified. If, however, they just busted in and shot him immediately, yea they're in the wrong. Hopefully we get more information or the video which would clear things up significantly

Jmanunknown said:
Apparently according to the police he purchased the rifle removed it from its packaging. After he removes it from its packaging he gets a call from the mother of his children. He's messing with the airsoft gun while on the phone with her.
Somewhere during all of this a women who is on the phone with her mother sees him. She tells her husband they proceed to follow him around( women has broken ankle and is in walmart scooter). They assume it is a real gun and he is gonna rob the place and call the police. They say he is giving everyone he sees dehumanizing stares and is pointing the gun at them. They are warning other people.
Cops get their after about three minutes ask him to drop the gun apparently with his back turned and being on the phone he probably thinks it is a joke. He says it is not a real gun. He attempts to turn around is shot dead. After handcuffing his dead body and checking the alleged weapon is when the police probably realize oops we killed an innocent person. Somewhere during all of this another women trying to escape the gunfire has some sort of medical emergency and dies.

That is about all I pieced together from the articles about this story.
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Damn, if that's the case he should have dropped it immediately. Turning around like that while still holding the weapon must have been what made the cops act.
 
Dragonborn said:
So was he waving the gun around at people. If the cops came in and he, for som reason, did point it at them, well it was a terrible choice but the cops were at least somewhat justified. If, however, they just busted in and shot him immediately, yea they're in the wrong. Hopefully we get more information or the video which would clear things up significantly
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Where are these people though? Are they imaginary? Why have they said nothing about this whole incident? The couple cared so much for their well being that they pulled them out of harms way into safety, yet no one has come forward to lend any kind of credit to the situation at hand.
 
malyce said:
Where are these people though? Are they imaginary? Why have they said nothing about this whole incident. The couple cared so much for their well being that they pulled then out of harms way into safety, yet no one has come forward to lend any kind of credit to the situation at hand.
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That's why I'm asking. I think that couple that overreacted is more to blame (assuming they're lying). They caused two peoples' death
 
malyce said:
Where are these people though? Are they imaginary? Why have they said nothing about this whole incident. The couple cared so much for their well being that they pulled then out of harms way into safety, yet no one has come forward to lend any kind of credit to the situation at hand.
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That's what I've been saying. If he really pointed the gun at children/babies, you'd think there be statements of upset parents. But there's jack shit outside of this shady couple.
 
After thinking about this more the two people who called the police really did get the poor guy killed in this situation. Their assessment that he was a threat by allegedly staring at people aggressively and allegedly pointing a rifle at people put the cops on edge. Their actions cost two innocent people their lives and ruined two families.
 
How many other calls to the police were made before he was shot? If he was threatening surely there would have been other calls? Where is the store video? This should be pretty easy to solve, surely?
 
I hope the Ritchies die with hearts anchored with guilt. And the only reason they probably feel bad is because an innocent white woman had a heart attack due to their boundless stupidity.
 
Slackbladder said:
How many other calls to the police were made before he was shot? If he was threatening surely there would have been other calls? Where is the store video? This should be pretty easy to solve, surely?
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It was just one call from the couple. We may never see the store video if charges are not brought against the cops. If the da in the case just says the cops were justified in killing an innocent person then the video will likely never be released publicly. They can not release video of cops killing an innocent person especially if no one is charged with anything it would just make the situation more inflammatory. It is a genuinely messed up situation where you can be minding your business in a store shopping and get killed because of mistakes of other people and possibly no one be held accountable for you losing your life despite you not breaking any laws.
 
Why do people always blame the victim? He should have done this or that? How nice to be able to say this after it happened, isn't it? How would you react? (rhetorical question, unless you have been confronted by police with weapons drawn, while your back is to them and you are handling something that looks like a weapon, then please share your story with us)


Also: the police that shot the man are the ones to blame, sure the couple that called 911 kind of contributed, but those police officers are responsible for their own actions.
 
CrazyIvan1978 said:
Why do people always blame the victim? He should have done this or that? How nice to be able to say this after it happened, isn't it? How would you react? (rhetorical question, unless you have been confronted by police with weapons drawn, while your back is to them and you are handling something that looks like a weapon, then please share your story with us)
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Maybe it's because people like to think this couldn't happen to them. The thought that you can be killed through no fault of your own isn't a pleasant one.
 
CrazyIvan1978 said:
Why do people always blame the victim? He should have done this or that? How nice to be able to say this after it happened, isn't it? How would you react? (rhetorical question, unless you have been confronted by police with weapons drawn, while your back is to them and you are handling something that looks like a weapon, then please share your story with us)
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Given what we know, I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the paranoid couple; however, he should have immediately dropped the gun instead of turning around thus giving the cops some level of justification.

Now, don't confuse this with me saying he deserved it, absolutely not, but I am saying that, given what we know, it's not crazy to think that the cops acted as they were trained. The blame lands mostly on that couple in my eyes
 
Siegcram said:
That's what I've been saying. If he really pointed the gun at children/babies, you'd think there be statements of upset parents. But there's jack shit outside of this shady couple.
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Slackbladder said:
How many other calls to the police were made before he was shot? If he was threatening surely there would have been other calls? Where is the store video? This should be pretty easy to solve, surely?
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Exactly. Someone would have already given some kind of statement to some news station expressing their displeasure about them or their kid being placed in harms way either blaming Walmart, the guy with the gun, or the cops. Walmart must have had a cashier at every register[I'd buy lottery tickets if I ever witnessed this] if all those people were able to check out and make it back to their cars in that 3 minute time span. Why is the couple the only one that felt threatened by the dude's actions? So threatened that instead of getting far the fuck away from him and calling the cops, they decided to follow a potentially armed criminal around the store in anticipation of him robbing it or shooting someone? Do people follow potential criminals with loaded weapons that make them fear for their well-being? She was on a scooter, which would be even more reason for her to get all the way the fuck out of there in a potential life threatening situation. Someone please explain this line of thinking to me as I'm lost as fuck right now. If her story is indeed true, then hats off to her for putting other people's[and kids'] safety before hers and getting them out of harms way.
 
Dragonborn said:
Given what we know, I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the paranoid couple; however, he should have immediately dropped the gun instead of turning around thus giving the cops some level of justification.

Now, don't confuse this with me saying he deserved it, absolutely not, but I am saying that, given what we know, it's not crazy to think that the cops acted as they were trained. The blame lands mostly on that couple in my eyes
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If they yelled at him to drop the gun, it's a normal reaction to turn and see who is actually telling you that.
 
BronsonLee said:
If they yelled at him to drop the gun, it's a normal reaction to turn and see who is actually telling you that.
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Yeah, I don't get the computer/desk chair mental reenactment people at all. If you're on your phone minding your own business SHOPPING, and you hear someone shout from behind "Put down your weapon!"; you're gonna turn around to see what the fuck is going on. [In your mind]You don't have a weapon, so they couldn't possibly be talking to you. That's the mind frame any normal person would be in. If you say otherwise I can't take you seriously. Now, if the cops were in front of him with guns drawn and he didn't comply, then he would be stupid.
 
If I'm playing with a bbgun while on the phone and some idiot yells sir drop your weapon, my natural reaction is to turn around. I'm on the phone partially unaware of my surroundings. I dunno who he's talking to, I dunno if someone else in the store has a real gun etc... You do not expect to be mistaken for a criminal at the store you just purchased a bbgun at.

This is so fucked up.
 
Dragonborn said:
So was he waving the gun around at people. If the cops came in and he, for som reason, did point it at them, well it was a terrible choice but the cops were at least somewhat justified. If, however, they just busted in and shot him immediately, yea they're in the wrong. Hopefully we get more information or the video which would clear things up significantly



Damn, if that's the case he should have dropped it immediately. Turning around like that while still holding the weapon must have been what made the cops act.
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I feel like this just goes against natural human instinct. Especially since you'd be confused and the order would be so sudden. No way people can process that request.
 
Flo_Evans said:
sigh.

Pellet guns are not toys. It is considered a projectile weapon in most places.
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Are you suggesting if the police knew it wasn't a real gun, but just a pellet gun, they would still approach the suspect as if he could massacre a bunch of people?

We get it. It's not a toy. It can kill a rodent. But let's not pretend anyone was in mortal danger.
 
ArkhamFantasy said:
If it is proven that the witnesses lied about him pointing the gun at people can they be charged with anything?
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Somebody yesterday (erroneously) tried to suggest yesterday that John Crawford could have been charged with incitement to violence. I'd have to look at case law to see if this has ever been applied to situations where someone made false reports to the police, but if they knowingly lied about Crawford's actions, then possibly.

2917.01 Inciting to violence.
(A) No person shall knowingly engage in conduct designed to urge or incite another to commit any offense of violence, when either of the following apply:

(1) The conduct takes place under circumstances that create a clear and present danger that any offense of violence will be committed;

(2) The conduct proximately results in the commission of any offense of violence.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of inciting to violence. If the offense of violence that the other person is being urged or incited to commit is a misdemeanor, inciting to violence is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offense of violence that the other person is being urged or incited to commit is a felony, inciting to violence is a felony of the third degree.
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malyce said:
Yeah, I don't get the computer/desk chair mental reenactment people at all. If you're on your phone minding your own business SHOPPING, and you hear someone shout from behind "Put down your weapon!"; you're gonna turn around to see what the fuck is going on. [In your mind]You don't have a weapon, so they couldn't possibly be talking to you. That's the mind frame any normal person would be in. If you say otherwise I can't take you seriously. Now, if the cops were in front of him with guns drawn and he didn't comply, then he would be stupid.
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Completely agreed.
If I hear something that surprises me and I can't see, I'm going to look first.
 
YoungHav said:
If I'm playing with a bbgun while on the phone and some idiot yells sir drop your weapon, my natural reaction is to turn around. I'm on the phone partially unaware of my surroundings. I dunno who he's talking to, I dunno if someone else in the store has a real gun etc... You do not expect to be mistaken for a criminal at the store you just purchased a bbgun at.

This is so fucked up.
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Yep, scary to think that id be dead too because I would have done the same, people wanna look for some reason to blame the guy because they honestly refuse to believe that you can die even tho every act that you have committed up to that point has been certified as adequate by a group of law experts. Sorry, you can die, cos there is a chance you aint shit in the eyes of the wrong person.

Glad I can pass for white people.
 
This shit is fucked up.

Walmart needs to release the footage... if the police didn't confiscate it first.
 
BronsonLee said:
If they yelled at him to drop the gun, it's a normal reaction to turn and see who is actually telling you that.
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dallow_bg said:
Completely agreed.
If I hear something that surprises me and I can't see, I'm going to look first.
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SimpleGamer said:
100% agreed because I would had done the same thing.
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Trying not to hulk out in this damn thread. If your back is turned and somebody yells drop the gun while you're on the phone in a store where you JUST BOUGHT THE GUN, surely the totally reasonable thoughts going through your head are:

1. Woah! somebody has a gun?? where? They can't be talking to ME, I just bought this HERE!!!

2. Where??? Police? Huh???

3. or just.. "Huh??"

at NO point am I thinking, instant freeze and drop gun because they are not possibly talking to me. I'm on the phone, playing video games, in the video game section with the toy gun that I just FREAKING bought. I was likely checking the gun because, having played with airsoft guns, I wanted to check the quality of the gun because to make sure it's not a crappy build. I can't tell from the outside of the package, so I'd probably buy it in the store, check it out, and return it if it's a crappy build.

The LAST freaking thing I'm thinking, though, is that somebody is thinking that I'm waving the gun randomly at scared people in the store and that my life might end in the video game section.

Or at least, that's not what my 22 year old self would think. My 39 year old self would have the cynicism and life experience to know that shit ain't fair, I have to think about EXTRA stuff that wouldn't normally come to a regular 22 year old kid's mind that isn't a black male in america. I check myself TODAY at 39 because I know that walking too close to people might freak them out so i've gotta keep my reasonable distance, talk extra chipper or make sounds to let them know that I'm there (day or night), I can't wear a hoodie even in the rain - just in case, and even as innocent and innocuous as it might seem, I can't open up a toy gun in the store that I bought it from because people might think whatever the hell they might think and I could be dead. Sadly, his mistake wasn't just opening up the gun. His mistake was that he wasn't vigilant and was on the phone. You can't be caught with your attention down like that because things are happening and you don't know how much of that is happening around you and because of you REGARDLESS your intentions.

Simple stuff like that. He can't just be a 22 year old kid buying a toy gun, talking on the phone to his girl in the video game section of the store. Had he not been on the phone or distracted, he'd have known that all of these eyes were on him - which they ALWAYS are - and he wouldn't have been caught slipping.

Those are the kind of things that black men have to think about DAILY.

Enjoy.
 
malyce said:
Where are these people though? Are they imaginary? Why have they said nothing about this whole incident? The couple cared so much for their well being that they pulled them out of harms way into safety, yet no one has come forward to lend any kind of credit to the situation at hand.
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THIS.

Sooooo apparently he wasn't doing ENUFF shit to cause more than this ... couple ... to be afraid. No Wall Mart customers running to Wall Mart employees saying "THAT MAN'S THREATENING ME AND MY CHILDREN WITH A GUUUUN!!!!", not MASS commotion, only people that cared enuff are these 2 people ... who stalked him around the store cause because they believe they're the heroes Wall Mart deserve and not the employees who WORK there. (I mean FOR FUCKS SAKE, if you're afraid of the guy holding a gun in a place that sells toy guns and air guns and gun guns then maybe you might wanna tell a person who works they to check it out. I'm pretty sure a worker telling him "Oh, hey sir! I know you purchased this here buuuut Some of our customers have complained about it. Can you put it away?" would have saved 2 people's lives here ...)

Cops come in, probly shocked the shit outta the guy cause you likely wouldn't expect drawn guns on you outta no where. Tells them it's fake and they waste no time killing him cause fuck using logic ... and them killing him gives a white woman a heart attack and SHE dies.

And ... all of this happened in a Wall Mart?
Why are we even talking about wut the couple say they did or wut happened? Where's the footage to show wut happened? Where are the OTHER eye witness?

I'm actually asking, this thread is 20 pages long and I read the first 3 and skipped to here. Is their footage?
 
BlackBanditSho said:
snip

at NO point am I thinking, instant freeze and drop gun because they are not possibly talking to me. I'm on the phone, playing video games, in the video game section with the toy gun that I just FREAKING bought. I was likely checking the gun because, having played with airsoft guns, I wanted to check the quality of the gun because to make sure it's not a crappy build. I can't tell from the outside of the package, so I'd probably buy it in the store, check it out, and return it if it's a crappy build.

The LAST freaking thing I'm thinking, though, is that somebody is thinking that I'm waving the gun randomly at scared people in the store and that my life might end in the video game section.

Or at least, that's not what my 22 year old self would think. My 39 year old self would have the cynicism and life experience to know that shit ain't fair, I have to think about EXTRA stuff that wouldn't normally come to a regular 22 year old kid's mind that isn't a black male in america. I check myself TODAY at 39 because I know that walking too close to people might freak them out so i've gotta keep my reasonable distance, talk extra chipper or make sounds to let them know that I'm there (day or night), I can't wear a hoodie even in the rain - just in case, and even as innocent and innocuous as it might seem, I can't open up a toy gun in the store that I bought it from because people might think whatever the hell they might think and I could be dead. Sadly, his mistake wasn't just opening up the gun. His mistake was that he wasn't vigilant and was on the phone. You can't be caught with your attention down like that because things are happening and you don't know how much of that is happening around you and because of you REGARDLESS your intentions.

Simple stuff like that. He can't just be a 22 year old kid buying a toy gun, talking on the phone to his girl in the video game section of the store. Had he not been on the phone or distracted, he'd have known that all of these eyes were on him - which they ALWAYS are - and he wouldn't have been caught slipping.

Those are the kind of things that black men have to think about DAILY.

Enjoy.
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Thanks for posting this.

I honestly can't imagine having to go through life looking over my shoulder like this. It's like a women who has to walk down a dark alley at night to get to her car, but it's 24/7.

I avoid using catch phrases like 'white privilege' as it tends to put people on the defensive, but this is a pretty good post outlining shit that some people never have to put up with.
 
Black-Wind said:
Where's the footage to show wut happened? Where are the OTHER eye witness?

I'm actually asking, this thread is 20 pages long and I read the first 3 and skipped to here. Is their footage?
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The police have footage from all 120 cameras in the store. They will release footage once the investigation is over. Youtube link above from today's news broadcast covering story.
 
Interesting take on this. People think Crawford got SWATted. Basically, people call the cops on someone hoping something will happen when the cops arrive.

“SWATting” is the intentional practice of calling 911 and reporting someone committing a violent crime, in order to create an overwhelming police response (such as a SWAT team, which is how the term came about).
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http://bearingarms.com/dayton-walmart-shooting-innocent-man-swatted-death/3/

http://youtu.be/OhzFaaQTdI8

Those Ritchies are guilty as fuck
 
BronsonLee said:
The gun model in question (MK-177):



I wonder how the people who called the cops feel now. Their paranoia kicked this whole thing off. I'm also wondering why on earth cops would roll into a Walmart guns drawn like that
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You have GOT to be kidding me. It's not even black!
 
This story makes me fucking sick. Maybe it's because I've carried around a toy gun in toy store before and didn't get harassed or shot. It's fucking disgusting that this happened. And it disheartening to continue to learn about our "glorious" nation of freedom and civil rights.
 
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