You're wrong. But it also means citing Thunderfoot is pointless. If he posted his things in text here he'd be banned.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
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You're wrong. But it also means citing Thunderfoot is pointless. If he posted his things in text here he'd be banned.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Maybe Kratos did have sex with an older man to get in with the spartans IDK. The major thing I remember from Greek Mythology was Zeus having sex with every woman he could, I don't recall him having sex with men, really I can't think of any of the greek gods/characters featured in the games ever having sex with men.
Brakke said:
I'm aware, which is why I'm trying to say what I'm saying without directly bringing the aftermentioned points. I don't I'm going to be able to
Repost:
Why would there be naked ladies at all anyways? In the Classical Greek Period (Especially Archiac Greek Art) depicting a nude woman was disgusting and shameful. They were in love with the male body. It was the opposite of how it is now. Men were sexualized and women were always clothed. A women would only be used when it was time to have a kid. It started switching up later in Greek sculpture. But just compare the male kouroi to the female kore. Which one is naked all the time?
You can't knock up a boy or man. The pederasty was stuff on the side and it was part of the coming of age/rite of passage lifestyle. It was an important part of getting up the social ladder. It was something that SHOULD be in the game for "accuracy" and believability. But it's not.
Because it is and never was about being "believable."
Why would there be naked ladies at all anyways? In the Classical Greek Period (Especially Archiac Greek Art) depicting a nude woman was disgusting and shameful. They were in love with the male body. It was the opposite of how it is now. Men were sexualized and women were always clothed. A women would only be used when it was time to have a kid. It started switching up later in Greek sculpture. But just compare the male kouroi to the female kore. Which one is naked all the time?
Yeah, he got a lot of women pregnant.
You can't knock up a boy or man. The pederasty was stuff on the side and it was part of the coming of age/rite of passage lifestyle. It was an important part of getting up the social ladder. It was something that SHOULD be in the game for "accuracy" and believability. But it's not.
Because it is and never was about being "believable."
Seriously. It would be such a huge improvement in all aspects.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
From what you linked pederasty seemed more to do with the greeks rather than the gods? God of War is focused entirely around the mythology, and has gods coming in to stomp on cities and rip off head with barehands. It's not a RDR or a GTA which have some rooting in reality, God of War is literally myth, not real. In terms of overall art direction, nomenclature, and characters, the games are very accurate and believable.
Edit: And if we are talking about sexualization, the males in GoW are also VERY sexualized, especially Kratos.
"The myth of Ganymede's abduction by Zeus was invoked as a precedent for the pederastic relationship, as Theognis asserts to a friend:
There is some pleasure in loving a boy (paidophilein), since once in fact even the son of Cronus (that is, Zeus), king of immortals, fell in love with Ganymede, seized him, carried him off to Olympus, and made him divine, keeping the lovely bloom of boyhood (paideia). So, don't be astonished, Simonides, that I too have been revealed as captivated by love for a handsome boy.[47]
Greek myths provide more than fifty examples of young men who were the lovers of gods. Pederastic love affairs are ascribed to Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Orpheus, Hercules, Dionysus, Hermes, and Pan. All the Olympian gods except Ares[citation needed] had these relationships, which are adduced by scholars to show that the specific customs of paiderastia originated in initiatory rituals.[48]"
I dunno man.
I think the gods were pretty gay. The topless chicks don't seem very believable to meeee....
Does he lay in sexual poses like "The sleeping Satyr" From 220 BC? Kratos certainly doesn't seem sexual to me...
If he licked his lips, moaned and was sexually suggestive at all times...maybe. But I don't think he does that.
As a huge fan of No more heroes, I cringed at that scene. Maybe it's because of all the other craziness going around in No more heroes, but I don't even remember reacting to that scene in my first play through.
Shmuely Bully
Member
People are horribly maimed, killed, and murdered every day and subject to all sorts of violence. Statistically almost across the board those victims are overwhelming male.
Based on both the above and the casual treatment of death that games tend to have (some make Rambo [2008] look like a pleasant stroll through the park) I don't think it's appropriate to say that violence against women should be given any more weight by games than any other form of violence. Besides which: games specifically use violence against women to identify the bad guys. Who attacks women in games? Overwhelmingly villains and occasionally anti-heroes, with few exceptions protagonists do so only when they are given no other choice. It's often a cheap emotional appeal in either case, but to say that such things aren't given weight is mistaken. They're there because they give weight. Their abuse and/or deaths matter to the player.
Now if you want to argue that more games out there should more soberly approach violence and death then I'd agree.
Sarkeesian seems to be arguing out of both sides of her mouth by complaining on the one hand that women aren't given enough agency in games, while on the other complaining that they aren't given a sufficiently special victim status.
Who just takes a single clip from a grindhouse-style satire game at face value? That's not even the most offensive thing in NMH2, let alone the whole series. Don't let an out of context representation keep you away from enjoying a good game.
poorlonelycomputer
Member
Oh I've seen the response videos. It's always some dweeb who probably has a closet full of fedoras smugly mansplaining for 20 minutes with junior high debate club level logic. Believe it or not, they don't convince me.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Is there a definitive version of Greek Mythology or multiple? I genuinely had never heard of pederasy.
Maybe they were all Bisexual then lol
It's even sillier when the rest of the game plays out with
Kratos turning into a soft teddy bear for Pandora.
A big part of the Olympics had to do with pederasy. It was a pretty big deal. To say the least, it completely excluded women from society.
You don't know about it because you're perception of "realistic" and "believable" comes from things like Gladiator, 300, Ryse and God of War...
In reality, these people were about 5'5 in height with tiny heads and were much more likely to have consensual casual intercourse with men over women. This is why history and art history is important...and why commercial stuff has the ability to screw people's perceptions up. In baaad ways! Also, our sense of morality is very much against this kind of thing so of course we shy away from it when teaching it in school and showing it in the media.
Lol. "Satire".
There are a million. Also, most faithful didn't even really do the Pantheon per se. Priests glorified specific gods. The people down with Dionysus were usually looked at like culty weirdos. Then like Pythagoras had a triangle cult.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
A big part of the Olympics had to do with pederasy. It was a pretty big deal. To say the least, it completely excluded women from society.
You don't know about it because you're perception of "realistic" and "believable" comes from things like Gladiator, 300, Ryse and God of War...
In reality, these people were about 5'5 in height with tiny heads and were much more likely to have consensual casual intercourse with men over women. This is why history and art history is important...and why commercial stuff has the ability to screw people's perceptions up. In baaad ways! Also, our sense of morality is very much against this kind of thing so of course we shy away from it when teaching it in school and showing it in the media.
No I studied it in school and read books lol, I quite liked it which is why I'm drawn to GoW.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
The trophy text is the only thing that seems different to me.
Okay, yeah I like mythology and art history a lot too.
But can we admit that maybe the depiction of women in some of these games are often untrue and do a disservice to my gender? Can we admit that maybe the perception of women in games are skewed in a certain way that might be...exaggerated and unrealistic? Maybe even...unfair?
Can we open up to maybe just that? I just told you that pedophilia and homosexuality was a crucial part of Greek culture and mythology...and that for a laaaarge portion of Grecian history, a women's body was pretty gross and shameful to them. Obviously Christianity changed that a LOT. But perceptions aren't something hardwired...they are laid down before us and create well ingrained stereotypes and misconceptions.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I've said it before in this very thread, so I'm just gonna repost it:
"Because maybe some of us aren't going to swallow everything told to us. It's ok to think what you want, but I'm all for equality, not just "fixing" things that some people find uncomfortable. If we want to fix sexism in video games let's do that, not just shovel out the BS."
"I think it's fair to say that the ones arguing against *some* of her points are not saying we don't acknowledge that it isn't happening, I think we are arguing that she is calling out and critiquing the wrong things. A good chunk of her videos contain too many nitpicking points that don't make sense, rather than going for a truly "sexist" jugular. Again, I well agree that there is sexism in video games, but the murder of prostitues isn't part of it."
Uncle Rupee
Banned
100% of the examples shown in the video depict men as the aggressors / perps / evil doers, and 100% of these characters exist only to be as cruel as possible so that players want to stop them, or outright murder them. While their representations of women are hardly commendable, it could be argued that their depictions of men are actually much worse. And in the case of anti-heroes beating women, games like GTA V have much worse scenes of torture on male NPCs, and they put the player in control of the torturer.
In almost all of the examples shown, it is simply a cheap and easy way for the developers to give the player something to fight against, particularly in a setting that tries to depict the seedy underbelly of society. Granted, they could be handled much better, such as being able to call EMTs / ambulances for victims of assault before going after the perp, but that would also require much more work to code that stuff into the game, stuff which the player likely wouldn't even see since they are supposed to be chasing the bad guy.
Should games like GTA ignore the fact that prostitutes and strip clubs exist? Should games like Far Cry or Watchdogs ignore the fact that sex slavery exists? Some of her final comments seem to suggest this is a possible solution, which doesn't seem very realistic or likely imo. At the same time, I'm happy she is shaming some of these devs, as some of the stuff is pretty unbelievable. The example shown from God of War 3 in particular just seems so gratuitous and unnecessary.
In almost all of the examples shown, it is simply a cheap and easy way for the developers to give the player something to fight against, particularly in a setting that tries to depict the seedy underbelly of society. Granted, they could be handled much better, such as being able to call EMTs / ambulances for victims of assault before going after the perp, but that would also require much more work to code that stuff into the game, stuff which the player likely wouldn't even see since they are supposed to be chasing the bad guy.
Should games like GTA ignore the fact that prostitutes and strip clubs exist? Should games like Far Cry or Watchdogs ignore the fact that sex slavery exists? Some of her final comments seem to suggest this is a possible solution, which doesn't seem very realistic or likely imo. At the same time, I'm happy she is shaming some of these devs, as some of the stuff is pretty unbelievable. The example shown from God of War 3 in particular just seems so gratuitous and unnecessary.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
its as exaggerated and unrealistic as the way males are portrayed in games
Kratos and characters like him are examples of male power fantasies though.
A better example would be someone like Dante since he is one of the few male characters that are overtly sexualized, but he still falls into the male power fantasy trope.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Actually, you might feel that it's less common because it's so commonplace.
For example, Far Cry 3 depicts both Vaas and Buck's villainy how? By gruesome acts on men. Kratos? By showing him throwing a merchant down the first monster's throat after he got his key. The villain in Bioshock Infinite? Full-on torture on a man whose body is set up under a spotlight in the center of the room.
Zomba13
Member
Or the part where he rips a guys head off and then literally uses it as an item. That is literal objectification. He literally turns a guy into an object to be used for his own benefit.
She doesn't make it clear enough. But I think it's the idea that the women are both victims and they are sexualized. Not so much that they are murdered. They lack agency or any form of control. They aren't characterized in the same way men are. They are strongly associated with sex instead of...well, anything else that a human would be associated with. And that would almost be okay, but the games never actually give real commentary on the awareness or consequences of sexual violence either.
Honestly...games are about gameplay. So of course they have a hard time fleshing out abused and killed sexy ladies that don't really matter to the game. But it's just that it's used so willy-nilly without much thought or understanding on the subject. It gives off the idea that women are inferior in a multitude of harmful ways. And people accept and believe it too readily. No one comes out of these experiences thinking about the real-life ramifications of sexual violence...but they might come away with an understanding of murder.
Eh, they just don't think it about well enough.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Well, to be blunt, yes. One is being sexualized for the player's titillation the other is not.
It's called Tropes Against Women for a reason. She freely ignores any examples that don't fit into this category.
Zomba13
Member
I really hate when people look at big, stupid, angry men that show off their bodies and say "yeah but that's a male power fantasy" while a beautiful, smart woman that happen to wear clothing just as revealing is sexist.
No man wants to be like Kratos. A big manchild with anger issues who blames everyone for his problems but himself and lashes out at everyone, even those trying to help him and never accepts responsibility.
But yeah, he's ripped so obviously we want to be him.
ExpressGalaxy
Member
I thought it was already established that, above all else, Kratos is just a dick. Man or women, it doesn't matter he'll be a dick to you. Equal opportunity dickishness.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Kratos might not appeal to you and I, but don't deny that he is a perfect example of a male power fantasy. For the players that like to play those games, part of the fun is taking on his role.
I really don't understand her reasoning, when she talked about not including these things in games. Would it not make more sense to also include things like male strip clubs and also have the female be in the position of the pimp and male the prostitute.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Don't know about Greek mythology - I haven't come across a lot of examples of homosexuality in my readings. However, there are lots of instances of women abuse and rape in Greek mythology like Andromeda stripped naked and chained to rocks or Zeus's multiple counts of abductions, rapes and spousal abuse.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
I can only speak for myself but I dislike Kratos. But I don't recall people saying that they want to be like Kratos and be able to behave like him. The people I know who enjoy the GoW games do so because of the gameplay.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
That doesn't change the fact that Kratos is a male power fantasy.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Not sure on what you're basing that claim. I can state the opposite and be done with it.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Yes but he's still a prime specimen for being sexy no? Pecs the size of elephants and 6 pack to boot. I don't know if it's a male power fantasy or just the simple fact Kratos is a badass and it's fun to rip off minotaur heads. People love Bayonetta, would she not be a female power fantasy? She is as sexualized and equally badass?
I'm also positive we had this same discussion last time, and I've given my thoughts to similar posts to this one in the thread already, so for the sake of not going in circles I'm not gonna give my rebuttal.
We live in a culture that loves sexing up women. And condemns homosexuality and pedophilia.
Of course we'd weed out every story that involved Zeus and friends romantically kidnapping little boys. C'mon now. Seriously?
Once exoticism and romanticism became a huge part of our culture we started drawing a TON of paintings with Danaë receiving magical "golden showers" from Zeus. A TON. If it wasn't Danaë, it was Venus doing something sensual. Or some princess being raped by an Arabian sultan. And then of course she'd magically enjoy it just like all the other women who were raped. Because women actually love rape, it's romantic. Yikes. This went on for years and years until Manet came around and made everyone look like complete perverted mofos. ...All Manet did was draw a naked woman in a modern setting around modern clothed men. It was a complete uproar. Artistic...meltdown.
We took the ancient culture and made it work within our new Christian moral code. Completely tossing out anything gay. It doesn't change the fact that the pederasty was a huge part of being a Grecian male.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Mainly the fact that he is a super muscular, very powerful hero character. It's the same principle that informs the design of many super heroes, the popularity of wrestlers among young boys, etc.. Yet notice how he is not sexualized; few women would find him attractive. He would never appear on the cover of a romance novel.
I mean didn't you just say what the difference was? Wasn't the solider in full military garb. Why did the girl have to have to be sexualized in such a way with her boobs flapping about? Either way, so in GoW they also showed Kratos killing and torturing dudes(who hardly ever or presented the same way) why would that take away from her point to begin with?
C'mon guys. "But men too" is the most useless. Pretty sure Sarkeesian's never going to claim "these men are such admirable, well-drawn characters". She just doesn't care. Depictions of men aren't her project. Scientific method: she picked her hypothesis, now she's exploring it.
Anyway, it's the slimiest thing to do. Here's a chance to listen to a woman talk about the experiences of women--a rare perspective in the context of games--and your thought is to highjack it to talk about men?
Anyway, it's the slimiest thing to do. Here's a chance to listen to a woman talk about the experiences of women--a rare perspective in the context of games--and your thought is to highjack it to talk about men?
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I think the closest thing we had to Kratos in terms of muscle mass was probably Arnold in his prime. Now, for all intents and purposes, I would imagine that most women would find him sexy. But what else is he besides a big muscle head in the media he is in?
Edit: just look at this dude, this photo could be a romance cover if it were less creepy lol
MRA's gotta make it about themselves
Zomba13
Member
I think it's be better to compare Kratos to a worse female character. While Bayo is more sexualised she is also funny, witty, cunning and intelligent as well as a sexualised beautiful woman. Kratos, apart from his physical abilities and physique, is just full of negatives you associate with men. Quick to anger, irrationally mad, unable to accept responsibility, prone to violent outbursts and stupid. He's like a drunk chav looking for a fight on a Friday night except that's him all the time. Rather than think about a solution to a problem he's more at home smashing it or smashing things into it until it solves itself.
Maybe the better comparison would be a DoA girl or an overly sexualised female fighter from another game who is super shallow. She's good looking and a good fighter so she must be a female power fantasy despite being ditzy and scantily clad.
Arguing that vicious stereotypes against Men are acceptable because the man in question is strong and therefore a "Male Power Fantasy",
Is like arguing that sexualizing stereotypes against Women are acceptable because the women in question are beautiful and therefore a "Female Beauty Fantasy".
Neither of those ridiculous logical trains make any ****ing sense.
Bad Stereotypes are Bad Stereotypes.
Men being consistently portrayed as the more dickish/cruel of genders, and women being consistently portrayed as the more helpless/sexual of genders, are both bad stereotypes. The end.
Is like arguing that sexualizing stereotypes against Women are acceptable because the women in question are beautiful and therefore a "Female Beauty Fantasy".
Neither of those ridiculous logical trains make any ****ing sense.
Bad Stereotypes are Bad Stereotypes.
Men being consistently portrayed as the more dickish/cruel of genders, and women being consistently portrayed as the more helpless/sexual of genders, are both bad stereotypes. The end.
Edit: just look at this dude, this photo could be a romance cover if it were less creepy lol
Or the last thing you see before you die
Kratos is the embodiment of adrenaline filled man smashing his way through life, while bedding multiple women on some sort of quest for justice. If that ain't a male power fantasy i'm already dead.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Who is we?
Also, can you give me some examples of those pre-Manet paintings? I have no idea what you're talking about otherwise.
SaggyMonkey
Member
Let's not pretend we are seeing the scientific method here. Her conclusion is pre-determined, then she only shows things that support it and discounts everything that doesn't.