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[StoOgE]

Not that I'm trying to put you down, but why exactly did you get physically ill over this, for hours?

Protip at life: when someone says something gives them PTSD you probably don't want to ask them to explain the event that the PTSD triggered.

 

[charlequin]

I would highly doubt it.

CliffyB (pretty much the archetypal high-profile brogame developer) was just tweeting yesterday about how much he liked Anita's videos and how much effect they were having on him and other AAA developers.

 

[hidys]

This is very disturbing news. I hope Anita Sarkeesian is eventually able to land on her feet.

This kind of thing needs to stop and the sad thing about the internet is that there isn't an effective way of stopping this sort of anonymous trolling.

The really sad thing about all of this though is that the sadistic trolls which forced her to take this action will see this as some sort of perverse victory.

 

[Gestault]

To an extent yes, but it's more a combination of that and actual mental illness. The people doing stuff like this would probably do similar things in any situation, these just give them an outlet where it's somewhat easier to get away with it (or justify it in their minds). I think it's wrong to think that most of the sexist douchebags would take it that far, or approve of this. Case in point, the fact that they're trying to say she's overplaying it, or fabricated the scenario entirely, rather than outright agreeing with the perpetrator. Most of them know that the perpetrator and what they did is vile and disgusting. But rather than admit that it's a sign that they were in the wrong, they try to rationalize and downplay the situation so as to convince themselves that they aren't at fault

Social issues are a nightmare to confront, because the entire "system" is in a state where those who benefit from it are actively reinforced for their role in it, so they subconsciously have difficulty accepting that there is a problem (even if they're honestly well-intentioned). It's not any deliberate "act" for almost anyone; it's the natural prompts and responses that are part of life. But that system can have dark undercurrents, and not everyone benefits. That's part of why I think it's dangerous for those challenging it to take on an outwardly combative tone by default, because it makes it harder for that message to penetrate the veil of ignorance (since we naturally filter for what seems "reasonable," for better or worse). On the other hand, you can't exactly be passive if you need to change something as far-reaching as misogyny.

 

[Sanke__]

Protip at life: when someone says something gives them PTSD you probably don't want to ask them to explain the event that the PTSD triggered.

I second this

Good pro tip

 

[antigoon]

CliffyB (pretty much the archetypal high-profile brogame developer) was just tweeting yesterday about how much he liked Anita's videos and how much effect they were having on him and other AAA developers.

Huh, I didn't realize Cliff had responded positively to the videos. That's actually super encouraging.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is probably the best reasoning of the geninue ire that some of these people feel. I RARELY agree with Leigh Alexander, but this is on point.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php

This is a really good read, thanks

 

[KojiKnight]

(edit) Ignore me... too tired to be discussing things. I just make a fool of myself.

 

[dubq]

We need...a hero!

He's gotta be strong, he's gotta be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight...

Oh no you di'n't.. stuck in my head now!

 

[DoktorEvil]

Just one example from the latest episode, I posted this before. Bioshock 2's developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman, Steve Gaynor) who reflected on the brothels that Anita found objectionable among other things:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400

https://twitter.com/fullbright/status/504656148385890304

I'm glad there's a dialogue at least among devs, but I'd like someone like Kojima or Miyamoto to put this wholly into perspective, specifically because they hold high esteem in the West.

CliffyB (pretty much the archetypal high-profile brogame developer) was just tweeting yesterday about how much he liked Anita's videos and how much effect they were having on him and other AAA developers.

I can't rely on CliffyB to keep a consistent opinion like that. After all:

All in all, I'm really happy devs are having the conversation instead of silencing it!

 

[hidys]

CliffyB (pretty much the archetypal high-profile brogame developer) was just tweeting yesterday about how much he liked Anita's videos and how much effect they were having on him and other AAA developers.

I'm glad to hear that her videos are having a positive impact on the way developers think.

 

[Kintaro]

You do? That's not what I remember, nor what history as a whole remembers lol.

Remember how wars are fought or began? It's all about people disagreeing with each other. Whether it's disagreement about a person(s) religion, sex, way of life, or race. We can only hope to learn from history to make the best future.

....so far that hasn't happened yet.

Disagreements don't start wars, psychopaths and mad men do. =P

I'm glad there's a dialogue at least among devs, but I'd like someone like Kojima or Miyamoto to put this wholly into perspective, specifically because they hold high esteem in the West.

You want Kojima to speak up when he puts in a scantily clad women in this super high profile game just for the sake of COSPLAY?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Social issues are a nightmare to confront, because the entire "system" is in a state where those who benefit from it are actively reinforced for their role in it, so they subconsciously have difficulty accepting that there is a problem (even if they're honestly well-intentioned). It's not any deliberate "act" for almost anyone; it's the natural prompts and responses that are part of life. But that system can have dark undercurrents, and not everyone benefits. That's part of why I think it's dangerous for those challenging it to take on an outwardly combative tone by default, because it makes it harder for that message to penetrate the veil of ignorance (since we naturally filter for what seems "reasonable," for better or worse). On the other hand, you can't exactly be passive if you need to change something as far-reaching as misogyny.

Oh of course. I agree completely.

 

[Toxi]

No one deserves threats for making videos, but she is constantly going out of her way to misrepresent games to appear more sexist than they actually are and all of you are just eating up her narrative. I would be really glad if I never had to hear about her or her victim complex ever again.

She was just sent death threats backed by her address and her family's and you're saying she has a victim complex. Really.

Oh this is true of course, I'm just not sure it applies as such in this specific situation. As I said, this guy is clearly super extreme even amongst those groups because otherwise we'd get a lot more people outright supporting and even praising him, rather than trying to deflect the issue by suggesting she fabricated the experience or is overplaying it.

Go to /v/ and look at the most recent thread on this topic. You will almost certainly find a few folks praising the threats or saying she deserved it.

 

[Jakoo]

I think the primary problem is that we have too many people who feel that by enjoying video games in their present incarnation and when faced with Mrs. Sarkeesian's critiques come to the irrational conclusion that she is painting them as also being misogynist. I am perfectly at peace with the notion that i both do enjoy video games but can also acknowledge their shortcomings.

People need to understand that just like any piece of media, gaming is subject to criticism that does not necessarily equate the consumers of that media with the criticisms being leveled at it. This why you see some reflexively defend any of her examples because they may have enjoyed that specific game and feel that their enjoyment is now being equated with their own personal feelings on the matter.

My one hope is eventually Ms. Sarkeesian's series will feature the games that she feels are moving in the right direction thereby heightening awareness of those developers.

Also wanted to quote this as one of the better posts in the thread. I've only watched a handful of the Tropes vs. Women videos and I definitely feel some strange, internal "defensive" mechanism kick in where I want to completely dismiss and ignore her points as the videos are playing. However, after I really absorb her examples and think about it though, I find myself agreeing with some of her points, and it makes some tired elements of games look downright lazy.

I think this "defense mechanism" probably occurs with most level-headed gamers that watch the videos and feel compelled to defend their hobby. The problem lies in, because they are on the faceless internet, you have cretins that will indulge this defense mechanism to a completely irrational and illogical extreme by lashing out and vocalizing it in terrible, awful ways without even caring enough to do the slightest bit of critical thinking on the topic whatsoever.

By trying to censor her, these wingnuts proves her point and almost makes the medium look like it's not "mature" enough to handle discourse like other industries can. It's a damn shame.

 

[riskVSreward]

How sexist are games, actually?

Well, you can kill strippers in hit man but its not the point of the mission and is discouraged by the missions criteria. Not to mention all the men you kill in that game, but she made an entire video about how hit man has you killing strippers. Its misrepresenting the game, and all of these people just bow down to her after it like she really hit the nail on the head. Its shameless really.

She was just sent death threats backed by her address and her family's and you're saying she has a victim complex. Really.

Go to /v/ and look at the most recent thread on this topic.

Yeah, before all of the threats, she's always acted like there's this great persecution against her. I already said she doesnt deserve threats, but please feel free to divert attention away from my point.

 

[Felix Lighter]

Wait, so anonymous Twitter trolls are now representative of the entirety of the tech community? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate what people are doing to miss Sarkeesian, but is that really "proof" that the tech community as a whole hates / despises women? Am I alone in having doubts that anyone (regardless of gender) will be harassed by internet trolls should you open your mouth about anything?

Where in that tweet does she suggest that the tech community as a whole hates / despises women? All, I see is that she is suggesting that harassment of women in tech is a real issue and I find it hard to believe anyone paying attention could honestly deny this.

 

[DoktorEvil]

You want Kojima to speak up when he puts in a scantily clad women in this super high profile game just for the sake of COSPLAY?

Just as poorly the new female villain is in MGSV, he also created one of the greatest female characters in video games, The Boss.

Yes, I'd like to hear his opinions of it.

 

[JNA]

Disagreements don't start wars, psychopaths and mad men do. =P

I disagree with that sir! I challenge you to a dual!

*takes out white glove*

...if only people would actually have fights like that, especially on the internet. Instead of making death threats to Sarkeesian, they should just video themselves taking out their white gloves and challenging her to a dual. Just for the comedic effect. XD

 

[unbias]

I'm not sure how true this is.

Yes, people's attitudes and their expressions of their attitudes are very much influenced by what they perceive of societal values, etc. And it doesn't seem to be the case that the internet is worse than anywhere else due to anonymity or anything like that, although it might add social distance that makes it easier for people to be jerks. But one thing the internet is really good at is letting people build echo chambers, and a side effect of this is that people come totally unmoored from actual culture in favor of what culture looks like from within their echo chamber.

Normal people can clearly go well beyond sending threatening messages. When it's perceived as a normal sort of thing to do, they can go around killing people; there doesn't seem to be a limit to how far "normal" can go, given the right cultural context.

Today we have much more power to construct the culture we perceive than people used to have. A lot of ink has been spilled on how this helps drive political polarization, for example. When people don't talk about some issue offline, and only ever talk about it online in groups which self-select for a particular opinion on the issue, they start to believe that their insular group's opinion is actually a mainstream one, and this can normalize a lot of behavior that most of society would regard as way over the line.

This is a largely great post, I think. People do need to get out of their comfort zone of their bubble and talk to people outside of the internet/their circle. It's one of the good things and problematic things about the internet. You can find people with like minded idea's so you don't feel alone(if you have issues with this), but it also allows you to not leave that echo chamber again. I think more so then normal, specially on the internet, people feel free to lose their shit, in ways they would never in public(for the most part). People are more crass, more abrupt, and less willing to just be polite. The idea of a lack of consequence, I think, is the biggest motivating factor in it all, but I could be wrong.

 

[Tom Nook]

This is sad. You share an opinion and views on what you believe in and then fear for your life. What a bunch of a holes.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Just check this Tweet.
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160

What a charmer.

 

[Fahdi]

Why this is beyond fucked up is that, despite her argument about violence against women in Videogames. It is also arguing facts that these men who play such games and come to their defense are also mysoginistic douchebags hence generalizing the male population (this doesn't fare well for people like me who are all for equality) however bringing some arguments to light; how can you do the following:

1) Battle the notion of Patriarchy that's been engraved into our minds
2) Ignore the History of Women and their Sexual Objectification
3) Not understand certain Phenotype and Genotypes such as; Sexual Diamorphism that give men and women their differences
4) Unable to give a direct comparison to women in the media
5) Take in the account of Girl Gamers and their thoughts on this

This makes for a horrible 1 sided bias approach to reporting. I hate the fact that these douchebags are hounding her, but she's as big of a douchebag. The proper response to this would have been a counter video.

 

[Toxi]

Why this is beyond fucked up is that, despite her argument about violence against women in Videogames. It is also arguing facts that these men who play such games and come to their defense are also mysoginistic douchebags hence generalizing the male population (this doesn't fare well for people like me who are all for equality) however bringing some arguments to light; how can you do the following:

1) Battle the notion of Patriarchy that's been engraved into our minds
2) Ignore the History of Women and their Sexual Objectification
3) Not understand certain Phenotype and Genotypes such as; Sexual Diamorphism that give men and women their differences
4) Unable to give a direct comparison to women in the media
5) Take in the account of Girl Gamers and their thoughts on this

This makes for a horrible 1 sided bias approach to reporting. I hate the fact that these douchebags are hounding her, but she's as big of a douchebag. The proper response to this would have been a counter video.

When was the last time you interacted with a human being in-person?

Honest question.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Someone start a new thread for this Leigh Alexander Gamasutra piece. I don't have privileges. It's kinda related to the overall issue at play here.

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php

 

[Aaronrules380]

She was just sent death threats backed by her address and her family's and you're saying she has a victim complex. Really.

Go to /v/ and look at the most recent thread on this topic. You will almost certainly find a few folks praising the threats or saying she deserved it.

Of course there are a few. There will always be a few

 

[Kintaro]

Just as poorly the new female villain is in MGSV, he also created one of the greatest female characters in video games, The Boss.

Yes, I'd like to hear his opinions of it.

So, you're saying he has regressed. Because it seems he certainly has.

The Boss > Paz > Quiet

I think he's playing it smart by not saying a word.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well, you can kill strippers in hit man but its not the point of the mission and is discouraged by the missions criteria. Not to mention all the men you kill in that game, but she made an entire video about how hit man has you killing strippers. Its misrepresenting the game, and all of these people just bow down to her after it like she really hit the nail on the head. Its shameless really.

The Hitman example isn't one of her better examples (her videos do have some issues with contextualization) but it also wasn't the whole point of the video. Did you watch the full thing? If you haven't seen part 2 yet, you should, the core point is that women are so very frequently portrayed in ways that have them not as actors but just as things that are acted on.

 

[Mesoian]

Why this is beyond fucked up is that, despite her argument about violence against women in Videogames. It is also arguing facts that these men who play such games and come to their defense are also mysoginistic douchebags hence generalizing the male population (this doesn't fare well for people like me who are all for equality) however bringing some arguments to light; how can you do the following:

1) Battle the notion of Patriarchy that's been engraved into our minds
2) Ignore the History of Women and their Sexual Objectification
3) Not understand certain Phenotype and Genotypes such as; Sexual Diamorphism that give men and women their differences
4) Unable to give a direct comparison to women in the media
5) Take in the account of Girl Gamers and their thoughts on this

This makes for a horrible 1 sided bias approach to reporting. I hate the fact that these douchebags are hounding her, but she's as big of a douchebag. The proper response to this would have been a counter video.

I'd think the argument for all of that is simply, "she isn't done with the series yet, she's less than halfway through her argument".

 

[ieptbarakat]

When was the last time you interacted with a human being in-person?

Honest question.

Rather than dispute his comments you leap straight for asking whether he has a social life or not. Real appropriate.

 

[plagiarize]

How sexist are games, actually?

More sexist than genre TV. Probably about as sexist as Hollywood blockbuster movies.

Genre TV still isn't where it should be, but it definitely shows that gaming could be a lot more inclusive and portray women in a much better fashion, without transforming into something that men can't still enjoy, and feel fandom and ownership towards.

Again, it's not without sins, but it's notably further along than gaming.

 

[Mesoian]

So, you're saying he has regressed. Because it seems he certainly has.

The Boss > Paz > Quiet

I think he's playing it smart by not saying a word.

As unfortunate as that is, you're right. I really wanted someone to actually take him to task for the "ending" of Ground Zeroes, but it will never happen because fans of the series will just go "whatever" and people who only have a tertiary knowledge of the Metal Gear Series can't make an argument that's "salient" enough to satisfy fans of the series.

 

[Toxi]

Rather than dispute his comments you leap straight for asking whether he has a social life or not. Real appropriate.

No, I just think it's baffling that someone who regularly interacts with people would think a counter video is a better response to backed death threats to you and your family than prioritizing safety.

 

[plagiarize]

Why this is beyond fucked up is that, despite her argument about violence against women in Videogames. It is also arguing facts that these men who play such games and come to their defense are also mysoginistic douchebags hence generalizing the male population (this doesn't fare well for people like me who are all for equality) however bringing some arguments to light; how can you do the following:

1) Battle the notion of Patriarchy that's been engraved into our minds
2) Ignore the History of Women and their Sexual Objectification
3) Not understand certain Phenotype and Genotypes such as; Sexual Diamorphism that give men and women their differences
4) Unable to give a direct comparison to women in the media
5) Take in the account of Girl Gamers and their thoughts on this

This makes for a horrible 1 sided bias approach to reporting. I hate the fact that these douchebags are hounding her, but she's as big of a douchebag. The proper response to this would have been a counter video.

She's as big a douchebag as the people who sent her death threats? Or just the people who write vile sexist and hateful things about her?

I need to know in order assess just how furious I should be in responding to you.

You genuinely seem to be saying she's EQUALLY as bad as the person who threatened to rape her to death.

 

[Devolution]

Internet communities/gaming at large are a boys club women are expected to endure and when they fight back against shit that is incredibly demoralizing, sexist, demeaning, etc they are subject to things beyond intense ridicule like obsessive behavior, stalking, and threats. One doesn't even need to be Anita-level popular to get the same shit. It's a recurring problem. Being a woman sucks.

 

[DrROBschiz]

She's as big a douchebag as the people who sent her death threats? Or just the people who write vile sexist and hateful things about her?

I need to know in order assess just how furious I should be in responding to you.

You genuinely seem to be saying she's EQUALLY as bad as the person who threatened to rape her to death.

Crazy

She is in no way similar to the criminals that threatened her

I am sure there are already threads that debate her stances and criticisms specifically. WTF at trying to correlate her to her abusers

 

[Fahdi]

When was the last time you interacted with a human being in-person?

Honest question.

When was the last time you were decent with replying to a counter argument? What exactly is the problem? I would like for you to at least reply with context in mind, rather than give me a vague and stupid line about character assessment. What are you? The judicial enquiry here?

 

[plagiarize]

Internet communities/gaming at large are a boys club women are expected to endure and when they fight back against shit that is incredibly demoralizing, sexist, demeaning, etc they are subject to things beyond intense ridicule like obsessive behavior, stalking, and threats. One doesn't even need to be Anita-level popular to get the same shit. It's a recurring problem. Being a woman sucks.

Genre TV fandom shows that we can be better, because even though that still has issues, it's much better than the gaming community. Same with people making games. Genre TV shows them that they can do better.

Genre TV has become much more inclusive, without any detrimental effects.

 

[unbias]

Rather than dispute his comments you leap straight for asking whether he has a social life or not. Real appropriate.

No, I think the point was why bring up the points like this, when you would probably not do this if you were talking to someone, in real life. The tone of that post wasnt needed, it is easy to bring up disagreements without being insulting. And before you say the "other side" does it too, well you are right, but I'm not sure how that improves the situation.

 

[Stet]

Yeah, before all of the threats, she's always acted like there's this great persecution against her. I already said she doesnt deserve threats, but please feel free to divert attention away from my point.

She's had threats since before the beginning of this series.

 

[DoktorEvil]

So, you're saying he has regressed. Because it seems he certainly has.

The Boss > Paz > Quiet

I think he's playing it smart by not saying a word.

Quiet's design as a nod to cosplay only tells me that since he's no longer at Konami, the wheels are falling off with MGS and Kojima is resorting to cheap tricks to sell MGS V to people.

A sexy and deadly sniper wearing only a bikini and torn stockings as her combat attire?
She's either so cocky that she's comfortable wearing nothing in the hot desert sun, or that there's male fanservice/demand to bring in sex appeal. After seeing what he's done with Paz, I'm convinced it's the latter.

Sniper Wolf didn't have to be treated like a sex object in order for gamers to appreciate her as a great soldier worthy of being in FOXHOUND. Why does Quiet deserve to be?

As unfortunate as that is, you're right. I really wanted someone to actually take him to task for the "ending" of Ground Zeroes, but it will never happen because fans of the series will just go "whatever" and people who only have a tertiary knowledge of the Metal Gear Series can't make an argument that's "salient" enough to satisfy fans of the series.

One thing to note, everything MGS related from MGS4 on has been done by Kojima Productions, not Konami internal.

Internet communities/gaming at large are a boys club women are expected to endure and when they fight back against shit that is incredibly demoralizing, sexist, demeaning, etc they are subject to things beyond intense ridicule like obsessive behavior, stalking, and threats. One doesn't even need to be Anita-level popular to get the same shit. It's a recurring problem. Being a woman sucks.

So I've noticed. I'm all for inclusion of everyone into the medium.
The boys club problem is more of a lack of perspective by guys at large.

 

[JBourne]

When was the last time you were decent with replying to a counter argument? What exactly is the problem? I would like for you to at least reply with context in mind, rather than give me a vague and stupid line about character assessment. What are you? The judicial enquiry here?

You're claiming that Anita Sarkeesian is just as bad as the people threatening to rape and murder her and her family, and you think she should respond to them with a counter video.

 

[riskVSreward]

The Hitman example isn't one of her better examples (her videos do have some issues with contextualization) but it also wasn't the whole point of the video. Did you watch the full thing? If you haven't seen part 2 yet, you should, the core point is that women are so very frequently portrayed in ways that have them not as actors but just as things that are acted on.

Her whole subject/object dichotomy is a farce too. If you can take her entire argument and replace females with males and it still holds up then the entire argument is invalid. You act on men too. Her approach is to start with a bias and then seek to confirm it, shameless.

 

[Comrade Stalin]

Of course there are a few. There will always be a few

Accent on *few*.

But meanwhile...

 

[SEGIII]

After reading that Gamasutra article posted a few pages back and with video games being a relatively young medium, are we experiencing a renaissance period by attempting to diversify our experiences?

If so, this 'protest' (I use the word in a figurative sense to establish a sense of congruency. The threats she received would fall under the antisocial category) is simply a response to the shift in dynamics. Disgruntled consumers don't want equality, they don't want diverse narratives, they don't want change. Then again, there are many rebels without a cause on the internet who merely deliver such threats for the sake of it. Perhaps if developers and players alike truly wanted the industry to take off, they would advocate against this anti-culture that has unfortunately defined gaming in the 21st century.

 

[antigoon]

Her approach is to start with a bias and then seek to confirm it, shameless.

I think people call this "forming an argument."

 

[CambriaRising]

Quiet's design as a nod to cosplay only tells me that since he's no longer at Konami, the wheels are falling off with MGS and Kojima is resorting to cheap tricks to sell MGS V to people.

A sexy and deadly sniper wearing only a bikini and torn stockings as her combat attire?
She's either so cocky that she's comfortable wearing nothing in the hot desert sun, or that there's male fanservice/demand to bring in sex appeal. After seeing what he's done with Paz, I'm convinced it's the latter.

Sniper Wolf didn't have to be treated like a sex object in order for gamers to appreciate her as a great soldier worthy of being in FOXHOUND. Why does Quiet deserve to be?

Sniper Wolf's early concept art has her straight up topless, so...

In any case, Kojima has shown progressiveness in his games for a while now. Whether it's having Strong female characters, Characters who are LGBT, etc.

One thing to note, everything MGS related from MGS4 on has been done by Kojima Productions, not Konami internal.

Kojima Productions is just KCEJ rebranded, its not a separate entity.

 

[NoirVisage]

You're taking a conversation about sexism towards women and twisting it to be about men.

Think about that for a second.

no, actually he was taking a post (and similar other posts) made in this thread and making a valid point about some pretty funny hypocrisy.

I wish people would just shut up about how this incident can be viewed in a way that is beneficial to her. Just stop. Forever.

word. This PSA is for the good of the world. Take that crap somewhere else.

 

[FF Seraphim]

God I hate the fact the vocal minority can make the gaming community look bad. Next thing we know one of these dumbasses will attempt to have a swatting happen to her or something equally stupid.

 

[Fahdi]

She's as big a douchebag as the people who sent her death threats? Or just the people who write vile sexist and hateful things about her?

I need to know in order assess just how furious I should be in responding to you.

You genuinely seem to be saying she's EQUALLY as bad as the person who threatened to rape her to death.

I'll give you a direct response to this. See the keyboard warriors who just came down to judging my character; this is the entirety of the internet. Everyone likes to judge and assess others, but when threats happen, should you take them seriously? She made content that will offend people and I'm in the grey area of saying that her security is important, but that doesn't mean people won't talk shit about her because she gave a biased account of reporting with agenda setting and gatekeeping which makes "us" the gamers and the devs look bad as mysoginists.

Let's generalize the internet by saying most people don't back up their shit with words. If something had to happen, you think they'd give her threats first?