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[Mesoian]

I agree there's sexism everywhere and women face these issues all the time, I just dont like Anita's videos. She does a bad job arguing get points... but I like you and your legitimate response to me, cheers. Personally I couldn't care less about a games story or narrative, im all about acting on objects... regardless of gender.

Which is fine, and, like I do, we can wait for the next person who's more personally knowledgeable about each example and can be far more charismatic and inviting to the conversation than Anita currently is.

But until that person comes along, she's all we've got. So listen to her, disagree if you think she's wrong, but don't downplay when she's right, because she's right a lot more often than she's wrong.

 

[Comrade Stalin]

So it's ok that a guy threatened to rape a women and her family to death, just because a few people related to her side (Whom most of us would immediately say is wrong) did bad things. A point remains valid regardless of what the supporters of that point do. And one side being wrong about something doesn't make the other side right.

You miss my point: None of it's okay. Both sides are on equal footing in asshole territory. It just seems that the assholery of one side seems to be glossed over in favor of blowing up the assholery of another side.

 

[daffy]

I don't know about US but this is clearly not representative of what I see in French tech companies.

I personally don't like what she's doing (I think she doesn't treat the subject the right way.. also I have higher priorities : minorities representation) but I don't understand people who behave on the Internet like it was another world.

What? Name one french tech company that represents itself as a counter example to stuff like this going on in America.

One.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Just one example from the latest episode, I posted this before. Bioshock 2's developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman, Steve Gaynor) who reflected on the brothels that Anita found objectionable among other things:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400

https://twitter.com/fullbright/status/504656148385890304

Super into this. I'm glad she's making legit positive change, though it's difficult for me to personally realize these people never even thought about the things she says about sexism before.

 

[Actionhank]

What is wrong with you?

What is so wrong with a little skepticism? Can you prove 100% without a shadow of a doubt what she is saying is true? I mean, I have seen some of her videos and I happen to agree on rare occasions with her. However, I happen to subscribe to the notion when it relates to the internet, is to take everything with a grain of salt. I have seen reasonable people do things no one would have ever thought they would be capable of doing. I guess my point is she is probably saying the truth, and it's horrible what some people would do to terrorize others but I will also not fault people who are skeptical as well when it comes to the internet and life in general.

 

[unbias]

I agree there's sexism everywhere and women face these issues all the time, I just dont like Anita's videos. She does a bad job arguing get points... but I like you and your legitimate response to me, cheers. Personally I couldn't care less about a games story or narrative, im all about acting on objects... regardless of gender.

Not to be mean, but then why would you care about her video's specifically or any argument about narrative if you dont care about narrative? The actually gameplay(I wouldn't think) wouldn't change, only the motivations as to why you are doing it. Even if her arguments are bad, to those of use who find narrative important at the very minimum, maybe some developers will take writing more seriously.

Because honestly, think about it, how much plot porn in a game do you really need to be convinced the bad guy is the bad guy, and does it even effect your perspective, with convincing you the bad guy is the actual bad guy?

 

[DoktorEvil]

Super into this. I'm glad she's making legit positive change, though it's difficult for me to personally realize these people never even thought about the things she says about sexism before.

Maybe they have and didn't have a sounding board to refer to?

 

[antigoon]

males get them too, and i don't want to fall under "but males too" and "not all males"... but I really think the closedminded attitude of making the problem of online harassing gender-depended is not good. I've been harassed online. I've had a person stalk me until he found my real name, then my phone number. All because of a moviebattles 2 (jedi academy mod) server. The inception of the problem does not come from the receptor end.

That's a shame that you were harassed. But just because men also get harassed online does not discount the very real and pattern-like harassment women receive simply for being women. It's very much a gendered issue.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Hold on to your butts.

Holy shit that is fucked up. The sad thing is that is the vocal minority that people see when they think of such movements.

 

[Mesoian]

It's always been like this, and it will always be like this, and we all need to just stop giving a fuck about outrage or people being offended - on all sides. Humanity's doing alright, we're all doing alright.

We're really not.

We're REALLY not.

 

[Trey]

What is so wrong with a little skepticism? Can you prove 100% without a shadow of a doubt what she is saying is true? I mean, I have seen some of her videos and I happen to agree on rare occasions with her. However, I happen to subscribe to the notion when it relates to the internet, is to take everything with a grain of salt. I have seen reasonable people do things no one would have ever thought they would be capable of doing. I guess my point is she is probably saying the truth, and it's horrible what some people would do to terrorize others but I will also not fault people who are skeptical as well when it comes to the internet and life in general.

Occam's Razor is your friend in this instance.

 

[Zafir]

Ugh.

Who are these people? Like, seriously, who are they?

Is the assumption that they're just a bunch of 12-15 year old basement dwellers correct? I'd sure like to hope so. The other option, that these are grown-ass men, really terrifies me.

Are they American? Or are they tweeting death threats from Bulgaria?

How many people are crazy like this? Is it a group of 20-odd guys from all over the world who find each other online and raise hell, an extremely vocal minority that ruins it for everyone? Or are there really thousands of people that think like this?

Shit is depressing.

UGH

EDIT: I'm going to PAX this weekend. The thought of sharing a building with some of these fucking trolls disgusts and terrifies me. Will they be there?

Well, it's not just singular to the US, nor is it just kids. The BBC did a documentary on the subject, and they actually found one of the guys who sent hate speech to a female over twitter and he was middle aged. (Link to the doc here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fjkRfPsDw ). More proof that it isn't just kids is here on this panel ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6w-dPPnQNk ) where they actually play recorded hate speech which is clearly not a childs voice.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You miss my point: None of it's okay. Both sides are on equal footing in asshole territory. It just seems that the assholery of one side seems to be glossed over in favor of blowing up the assholery of another side.

Except that you proved nothing. Maybe media bias on letting stories out I guess (I don't know much about that specific situation). Just because a few individuals on both sides are assholes doesn't mean the way those individuals are treated on their own side can't differ. And there are plenty of people who disagree with her who haven't been assholes about it and nobody is bugging them. We're denouncing the assholes who not only disagree, but who also try to deflect the situation and argue she fabricated it, rather than denounce the perpetrator and continue to disagree in a more appropriate fashion.

 

[Palette Swap]

I don't know, man. I find it hard to support a cause whose followers doxxed a ten year old boy on the grounds that he thought Daniel Tosh shouldn't be vilified for making a joke about rape.

Deflection volume 42. Let's create a middle ground!

This is awfully transparent.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

males get them too, and i don't want to fall under "but males too" and "not all males"... but I really think the closedminded attitude of making the problem of online harassing gender-depended is not good. I've been harassed online. I've had a person stalk me until he found my real name, then my phone number. All because of a moviebattles 2 (jedi academy mod) server. The inception of the problem does not come from the receptor end.

I understand, but realize that she has a laser focus on a very important, relevant issue to herself, just like this harassment is to you. The "not all males" criticism comes in because now you're effectively derailing the conversation about women into being about men and you, which is a poor strategy. Instead, I'd be into something like an OT thread about online harassment men go through, so that conversation can be started independently, because I could definitely share some stories.

 

[EmiPrime]

How many people are crazy like this? Is it a group of 20-odd guys from all over the world who find each other online and raise hell, an extremely vocal minority that ruins it for everyone? Or are there really thousands of people that think like this?

Look at how popular thunderfoot's videos are. Those obsessed with Sarkessian and who think she's the great anti-christ of gaming come to take away their copies of GTA are not insignificant in number.

 

[blitzcloud]

That's a shame that you were harassed. But just because men also get harassed online does not discount the very real and pattern-like harassment women receive simply for being women. It's very much a gendered issue.

no no, i'm trying to say that harassment is mostly never a problem that originated from the receiver of said harassment. if the problem doesnt originate from the harassed person, then gender is not a relevant point, or at least not as much as you'd think. I was genuinely surprised to read people saying they'd fuck me in the ass. Sexual insults make more sense on females because aggressors tend to be males, and sex oppression seems to equal power to them.

So what i'm trying to say after all is that the whole "harassing" thing should focus on the aggressors and their perceived online immunity, which is the root problem.

PS: obviously what happened to her with this harassing is unacceptable. probably all just vague threats. I hope the tweeter gets caught and rethinks his (assumption of gender) stance on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

We're really not.

We're REALLY not.

Yeah we are. Violence is at an all time low, we are making strides in a very short time on issues of liberties and rights (think past your life and your timeline), the "evolution" that's happened in the last 50 years is incredible when you consider the totality of humanity's timeline.

I'm not saying we should get complacent - just saying that there's a tremendous amount of doomsaying that we're all on one ride into the fiery abyss - and that's really just not true. Exceptions exist all the time, but we give them too much credence.

 

[Anton Sugar]

males get them too, and i don't want to fall under "but males too" and "not all males"... but I really think the closedminded attitude of making the problem of online harassing gender-depended is not good. I've been harassed online. I've had a person stalk me until he found my real name, then my phone number. All because of a moviebattles 2 (jedi academy mod) server. The inception of the problem does not come from the receptor end.

This isn't about you.

This is about rampant misogyny, sexism and hate directed specifically at women. It is a real problem and exists as its own outside of the general sphere of "harassment". This is about treatment of women based solely on their existence AS women.

Never did she say that men are not harassed--but that is not the problem that she is addressing.

We need to get a standardized notice at the beginning of these types of threads.

no no, i'm trying to say that harassment is mostly never a problem that originated from the receiver of said harassment. if the problem doesnt originate from the harassed person, then gender is not a relevant point, or at least not as much as you'd think. I was genuinely surprised to read people saying they'd fuck me in the ass. Sexual insults make more sense on females because aggressors tend to be males, and sex oppression seems to equal power to them.

So what i'm trying to say after all is that the whole "harassing" thing should focus on the aggressors and their perceived online immunity, which is the root problem.

You are talking about something different. The harassment and treatment that Anita has faced is largely rooted in her being a woman and attempting to expose misogyny in the industry.

These dudes aren't pissed off because she knifed them and then teabagged them.

 

[JumpJeff84]

Well, it's not just singular to the US, nor is it just kids. The BBC did a documentary on the subject, and they actually found one of the guys who sent hate speech to a female over twitter and he was middle aged. (Link to the doc here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fjkRfPsDw ). More proof that it isn't just kids is here on this panel ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6w-dPPnQNk ) where they actually play recorded hate speech which is clearly not a childs voice.

Cool, thanks. I'll check that out later.

How did nerds lash out before the invention of the internet I wonder?

 

[riskVSreward]

Not to be mean, but then why would you care about her video's specifically or any argument about narrative if you dont care about narrative? The actually gameplay(I wouldn't think) wouldn't change, only the motivations as to why you are doing it. Even if her arguments are bad, to those of use who find narrative important at the very minimum, maybe some developers will take writing more seriously.

Because honestly, think about it, how much plot porn in a game do you really need to be convinced the bad guy is the bad guy, and does it even effect your perspective, with convincing you the bad guy is the actual bad guy?

I care about her video because it has an impact on the community. So, I dont really care for stories in games, but I still recognize the flaws in her critique of the stories. I grew up on nes, gameplay will always be king. I hardly ever pay any attention to the story or how many women are represented poorly in comparison to how many men are the president or whatever. You could address this topic without basically fabricating an entire new narrative to attack more easily.

 

[iammeiam]

Super into this. I'm glad she's making legit positive change, though it's difficult for me to personally realize these people never even thought about the things she says about sexism before.

Honestly stuff like that is the biggest argument in favor of her series that I've seen. She gets a lot of flack for just stating the obvious, highlighting things everyone knows, or trying to oppress the unique creative vision of devs, but this indicates that stating the obvious is important because it is so omnipresent that devs can do it without thinking about it. What is screamingly obvious to some May just be something a Dev didn't realize, not a Valid Intentional Artistic Choice.

 

[unbias]

males get them too, and i don't want to fall under "but males too" and "not all males"... but I really think the closedminded attitude of making the problem of online harassing gender-depended is not good. I've been harassed online. I've had a person stalk me until he found my real name, then my phone number. All because of a moviebattles 2 (jedi academy mod) server. The inception of the problem does not come from the receptor end.

When people say harassed, they dont mean literally harassed more. Statistically online harassment is probably about the same if you are using the dictionary definition of harassment. However, when you count sexual harassment, I think it isnt a stretch to say that women get more sexual harassment then men do, by probably a huge margin.

 

[JBourne]

What is so wrong with a little skepticism? Can you prove 100% without a shadow of a doubt what she is saying is true? I mean, I have seen some of her videos and I happen to agree on rare occasions with her. However, I happen to subscribe to the notion when it relates to the internet, is to take everything with a grain of salt. I have seen reasonable people do things no one would have ever thought they would be capable of doing. I guess my point is she is probably saying the truth, and it's horrible what some people would do to terrorize others but I will also not fault people who are skeptical as well when it comes to the internet and life in general.

There's nothing wrong with healthy skepticism. There is something wrong when the first reaction someone has to something like this is "She's probably just doing it for attention."

Hence the greyed-out name of the poster that was directed towards.

 

[Shaanyboi]

This online nerd rage trolling shit needs to stop.

It won't. It may be minimized, but there will always be either angry, ignorant, or even just outright dangerous assholes saying and doing stupid shit online at the expense of others.

 

[djtiesto]

I've read several stories about women getting harassed by random internet people due to opinions expressed online and it's really disturbing how there are people so low to want to do this. I won't single out "gamers" since this pathetic and disgusting shit seemingly happens all over the internet.

 

[JumpJeff84]

Look at how popular thunderfoot's videos are. Those obsessed with Sarkessian and who think she's the great anti-christ of gaming come to take away their copies of GTA are not insignificant in number.

So fucking dumb!

GTA is a muti-billion dollar industry. Money talks in this world, and GTA makes money.

are they really that ignorant to think that because a popular YouTube personality critiques AAA games that GTA games are gonna stop coming out? Fuck.

Do they think that because some arty non-violent indie game sells 2 million copies and wins some awards Activision's gonna stop pumping out violent shooters?

Shit man, these nutjobs need perspective!

 

[blitzcloud]

This isn't about you.

This is about rampant misogyny, sexism and hate directed specifically at women. It is a real problem and exists as its own outside of the general sphere of "harassment". This is about treatment of women based solely on their existence AS women.

Never did she say that men are not harassed--but that is not the problem that she is addressing.

We need to get a standardized notice at the beginning of these types of threads.

i must say that I didn't read the harassing screenshot. I didn't know they were all of such a sexual connotation and that's why I said what I said.

sexual harassment is indeed marginally drastically different depending on gender

 

[charlequin]

Is the assumption that they're just a bunch of 12-15 year old basement dwellers correct?

You are going to have to walk past one group of them standing outside protesting in order to get inside where another group of them will be snickering over the dickwolf merchandise.

 

[JackDT]

Ugh.

Who are these people? Like, seriously, who are they?

Is the assumption that they're just a bunch of 12-15 year old basement dwellers correct? I'd sure like to hope so. The other option, that these are grown-ass men, really terrifies me.

Are they American? Or are they tweeting death threats from Bulgaria?

How many people are crazy like this? Is it a group of 20-odd guys from all over the world who find each other online and raise hell, an extremely vocal minority that ruins it for everyone? Or are there really thousands of people that think like this?

Shit is depressing.

UGH

EDIT: I'm going to PAX this weekend. The thought of sharing a building with some of these fucking trolls disgusts and terrifies me. Will they be there?

I used to think it was a tiny majority until I saw the stories just take over reddit. And comments with 1000+ upvotes full of this crap.

Go to PAX. Don't let these people represent gaming.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

sexual harassment is indeed marginally different depending on gender

Noooooooo

 

[Comrade Stalin]

You are going to have to walk past one group of them standing outside protesting in order to get inside where another group of them will be snickering over the dickwolf merchandise.

Both of them wringing their hands and twirling their mustaches all the while.

 

[sn00zer]

There is only one person Ive ever met who was a born and bred internet troll who spent all of his time on the internet or playing videogames.... he had severe Asperberger's and had to have a social worker check up on him once a week....I truly believe a lot of these people who call in thse threats are troubled teens with unchecked disorders who have found an outlet to channel their aggravation in dealing with everyday life

 

[unbias]

I care about her video because it has an impact on the community. So, I dont really care for stories in games, but I still recognize the flaws in her critique of the stories. I grew up on nes, gameplay will always be king. I hardly ever pay any attention to the story or how many women are represented poorly in comparison to how many men are the president or whatever. You could address this topic without basically fabricating an entire new narrative to attack more easily.

I'm not sure I understand your point, honestly. Are you saying you have problems with narrative being more of a thing in games, so you dont want it talked about(because she is fraturing the community)? If that is the case, I'm not sure what to say to that, honestly. She is arguing about the narratives that are there(her recent ones anywho). As for it hurting the community... I'm not sure how she can be blamed for the nature of the internet.

She posted an opinion, whether you think her opinion is loaded or not, doesn't explain the fractures in the community you are talking about. I'd say it is because the game industry is growing(racially and with gender) so you are seeing new communities within the game industry. That isn't indicative of her, that is just saying that there are more people in the industry now, with varying opinions.

 

[blitzcloud]

Noooooooo

LOL wait, word that sounds similar in my language but doesnt mean the same. I meant to say that it's drastically different.

 

[dubq]

i must say that I didn't read the harassing screenshot. I didn't know they were all of such a sexual connotation and that's why I said what I said.

sexual harassment is indeed marginally different depending on gender

C'mon dude, just.. come on.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Look at how popular thunderfoot's videos are. Those obsessed with Sarkessian and who think she's the great anti-christ of gaming come to take away their copies of GTA are not insignificant in number.

I think he's milking all of the ridiculous and unjustified Anita hate just to profit financially from it.

Those videos are so low quality that it's really little to no effort to do that. DSP does this, except he chops his videos into 10 minute chunks and profits from high volume.

He's a leech and he makes her quality polish look like a big budget production compared to his "content".

 

[unbias]

C'mon dude, just.. come on.

Honestly, with the way he responded, he either doesnt know what marginally means or he typed it out not thinking about what it means, otherwise his post wouldn't make sense.

 

[Damerman]

Hold on to your butts.

i totally agree with that kid, and the people who tried to give him a taste of his own medicine look like idiots. Stand up comedy is a social experiment. Its a vacuum where that comedian writes what ever they want in relation to different social issues and the audience just takes it in and reflects. People who go out in public and try to emulate this social experiment are stupid beyond reach.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

I don't follow the news on this subject, but it really surprises me how much hate this woman gets. Is there any reason for that? Does she have more visibility than other women or something?

I mean, I get some people might not like what she says, but to hate her that much makes no sense. Do all women get harassed on the internet? Is she amount of harassment proportional to the target's visibility? I don't get it.

 

[charlequin]

There is only one person Ive ever met who was a born and bred internet troll who spent all of his time on the internet or playing videogames.... he had severe Asperberger's and had to have a social worker check up on him once a week....I truly believe a lot of these people who call in thse threats are troubled teens with unchecked disorders who have found an outlet to channel their aggravation in dealing with everyday life

Let's not blame people with spectrum conditions for all the internet's trolling and misogyny. That study of internet trolls from earlier this year, for example, found that people who troll and harass are typically narcissistic, sadistic people, traits that are actually negatively correlated with conditions like Asperger's.

I know the temptation is great to blame mental illness for this stuff because the alternative explanation (that normal, regular people do this horrible shit) is so horrifying, but mental illness really isn't the cause.

 

[Toxi]

Holy fuck, /v/'s tinfoil hat reaction to this is both hilarious and depressing.

I'd post some of the conspiracy pictures those crazies whipped up, but I'm worried someone will actually believe them.

 

[riskVSreward]

I'm not sure I understand your point, honestly. Are you saying you have problems with narrative being more of a thing in games, so you dont want it talked about(because she is fraturing the community)? If that is the case, I'm not sure what to say to that, honestly. She is arguing about the narratives that are there(her recent ones anywho). As for it hurting the community... I'm not sure how she can be blamed for the nature of the internet.

She posted an opinion, whether you think her opinion is loaded or not, doesn't explain the fractures in the community you are talking about. I'd say it is because the game industry is growing(racially and with gender) so you are seeing new communities within the game industry. That isn't indicative of her, that is just saying that there are more people in the industry now, with varying opinions.

My point is that hitman is not a game where you kill strippers, so her whole critique is basically a lie. She misrepresents games constantly to fit her narrative (or agenda). That's where I take issue. Me not caring about stories is an aside.

 

[Stet]

My point is that hitman is not a game where you kill strippers, so her whole critique is basically a lie. She misrepresents games constantly to fit her narrative (or agenda). That's where I take issue. Me not caring about stories is an aside.

I'm not sure you fully grasp what she's saying overall.

 

[The Librarian]

males get them too,

And women get them worse. When you point out "males get them too," you undermine the issue women face in the tech and gaming industries. If men getting gendered insults is a problem, then make a thread on it or have someone help you. This thread is about the harassment women receive, or more specifically, the harassment one woman receives because of her gender.

 

[ambientmystic]

Look at how popular thunderfoot's videos are. Those obsessed with Sarkessian and who think she's the great anti-christ of gaming come to take away their copies of GTA are not insignificant in number.

There's some amazing stuff here lol. Thanks for the link.

Best part about it is the large number of subscribers that he has and the nearly universal acclaim every video he makes obtains.

You think those men are gonna take it lying down? Hell no, they're gonna milk this for what it's worth.

 

[Curufinwe]

Did they track down that Kevin Dobson guy yet? If that was his real name then surely it wouldn't be too hard.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Let's not blame people with spectrum conditions for all the internet's trolling and misogyny. That study of internet trolls from earlier this year, for example, found that people who troll and harass are typically narcissistic, sadistic people, traits that are actually negatively correlated with conditions like Asperger's.

I know the temptation is great to blame mental illness for this stuff because the alternative explanation (that normal, regular people do this horrible shit) is so horrifying, but mental illness really isn't the cause.

Great post.

 

[EmiPrime]

I think he's milking all of the ridiculous and unjustified Anita hate just to profit financially from it.

Those videos are so low quality that it's really little to no effort to do that. DSP does this, except he chops his videos into 10 minute chunks and profits from high volume.

He's a leech and he makes her quality polish look like a big budget production compared to his "content".

Maybe but he's also a true believer of this MRA nonsense and that's what has made him a pariah in the respectable parts of the sceptic/atheist community. He wouldn't double down on this if he wasn't sincere and it wasn't his reactions to Sarkeesian which outed him as an unrepentant misogynist, that came sometime before.

 

[Gestault]

I don't follow the news on this subject, but it really surprises me how much hate this woman gets. Is there any reason for that? Does she have more visibility than other women or something?

I mean, I get some people might not like what she says, but to hate her that much makes no sense. Do all women get harassed on the internet? Is she amount of harassment proportional to the target's visibility? I don't get it.

The scope of her observations, concerns about how much media directs individual behavior, and/or the merit of how she substantiates each point is the core of the polite criticism. Her role as a symbol of aggressive feminism is what leads to the monstrous mistreatment and less rational responses. She's visible, so all the unease people have about social change is funneled into her. Anonymity for making the threats just empowers those making them.

The fact that the conversation is happening at all is a good thing. People are being exposed to the ideas behind the videos, even if it's by viewers to other viewers explaining or reformulating her points.