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[scoobidoo112]

He's an anti-feminist and MRA supporter. He's probably a misogynistic asshole.

Yes, so instead of listening and / or responding to his arguments let's just attack his character! How is this any different from attacking Anita on the basis of "she's a feminist"?.

PS: You can be against the current feminist movement for all sorts of reasons and still be for equality.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Seems he probably didn't have to try too hard to accurately portray that character.

Not that I'm someone who is incapable of separating someone's personal life from their craft, but being perfectly honest, I liked Firefly -- in particular the Jane character -- a whole lot more before I was aware of the fact that Adam Baldwin is a right wing nutjob.

 

[Vlade]

He's an anti-feminist and MRA supporter. He's probably a misogynistic asshole.

do not feel the need to answer someone who is concerned that rational discussion is being lost just because someone is in the wrong as if they are being sincere.

 

[SEGIII]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say she probably does not want to talk to anonymous gamers from the Internet at this time.

just saiyan

Makes sense... but it shouldn't be like that.
I registered for NeoGAF in part to have intelligent gaming discussions.

 

[Rebel Leader]

I will always remember Will Smith from Tested saying on their podcast that he thought the UK system for prosecuting for threatening tweets is terrible even if he's been the victim of them. I just wish the US had our laws on this, because some of these people need prosecuting for this shit.

Something something 1st amendment something

 

[andymcc]

Yes, so instead of listening and / or responding to his arguments let's just attack his character! How is this any different from attacking Anita on the basis of "she's a feminist"?.

lmao

 

[Anton Sugar]

Yes, so instead of listening and / or responding to his arguments let's just attack his character! How is this any different from attacking Anita on the basis of "she's a feminist"?.

PS: You can be against the current feminist movement for all sorts of reasons and still be for equality.

I started watching "If men acted like feminists" and stopped after five minutes. He shows a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism, its intent, and why sexist tropes in games are troubling and different compared to similar situations with male characters.

 

[scoobidoo112]

do not feel the need to answer someone who is concerned that rational discussion is being lost just because someone is in the wrong as if they are being sincere.

lmao

Yes, pointing out that both sides need to be able to listen to each other without labeling and insulting each other is so hilarious!

I started watching "If men acted like feminists" and stopped after five minutes. He shows a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism, its intent, and why sexist tropes in games are troubling and different compared to similar situations with male characters.

Feminism means different things to different people. Still, whether you agree with him or not, labeling him a misogynist because you disagree with him is pathetic (generally speaking, not aimed at you).

 

[Gestault]

Makes sense... but it shouldn't be like that.
I registered for NeoGAF in part to have intelligent gaming discussions.

Not every public figure should be expected to have a personal conversation with every member of the public. I think that person gave good advice, even without these surrounding events. Twitter would be the best initial point of contact though, if you're interested down the road. NeoGAF does seem to be a good hot-spot for talking about it with good oversight.

 

[Mesoian]

Makes sense... but it shouldn't be like that.
I registered for NeoGAF in part to have intelligent gaming discussions.

There's a thread about her last video on the front page right now with a lot of very intelligent people within it. If you really wanna to discuss her views, that's the place for it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=881969&highlight=tropes

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Something something 1st amendment something

No one's allowed to threaten other people.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Yes, so instead of listening and / or responding to his arguments let's just attack his character! How is this any different from attacking Anita on the basis of "she's a feminist"?.

PS: You can be against the current feminist movement for all sorts of reasons and still be for equality.

I've watched thunderf00t's counterargument videos and they've never come across as particularly good or well thought out. They often seem forced, like they're just trying to nitpick every point raised. The calm presentation doesn't make up for the fact that it's pretty obvious that he sets out watching every Tropes video with a bone to pick with them based on their mere existence. Now, this all might seem unfair. But my willingness to accept him as a person engaging in the public debate in good faith goes completely out the window when I see tweets like: "wow 'anita sarkeesian forced to leave house due to harassment' story released to coincide with new video. A new low in attention-mongering,"

So, I'm perfectly fine dismissing him and his supporters.

 

[EmiPrime]

He's an anti-feminist and MRA supporter. He's probably a misogynistic asshole.

No probably about it.

 

[Toxi]

Makes sense... but it shouldn't be like that.
I registered for NeoGAF in part to have intelligent gaming discussions.

I'm guessing Sarkeesian is more concerned about beefing up her home's security than arguing with shitheels.

 

[dubq]

Makes sense... but it shouldn't be like that.
I registered for NeoGAF in part to have intelligent gaming discussions.

You can't have those w/o speaking to Anita directly?

 

[GillianSeed79]

Something something 1st amendment something

Does not protect you from stuff like threatening to kill someone on the internet, making a bomb threat or shouting fire in a crowded theater.

 

[anaron]

No probably about it.

Yep. He's total trash.

 

[flyover]

This shit is so fucking sad. Makes me so goddamn ashamed of my peers.

Can I ask what it is exactly that winds people up about her videos so much?

Honestly, I don't think some of the people who get riled up even know precisely why they're so upset by her and the videos. That might be part of why they lash out in such ridiculous fashion, and why they rarely engage in discussion on the actual content of the videos.

It's like the forwarded emails that some of my dad's more conservative old friends have been sending to him since the Ferguson protests started. They all talk overtly about supporting the police, with only the most oblique references to what really scares/angers them -- because I'm not sure they fully understand it themselves.

 

[dubq]

PS: You can be against the current feminist movement for all sorts of reasons and still be for equality.

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

 

[Mowki Kowski]

This is a cultural problem, a sociological problem, born from the kinds of behaviors that people on the internet have tacitly condoned for a couple decades now. Blaming "human nature" or "evil people" simply ignores the degree to which human behavior is shaped by social norms. We absolutely have the power to change these things, primarily by not condoning this behavior.

The internet is not some unchanging or monolithic thing, it is a society. And a society is ruled by social norms. If there is a problem, you can ultimately blame it on the rest of that society. So if you blame "the internet", you must also recognize that all of us are part of the society that comprises the internet, and in turn recognize that all of us shoulder some of that blame.

Didn't see anyone react to this post a few pages back, so I thought I'd quote it here. I think SkyOdin is on point. We can blame and/or dismiss any group we like, but I think we all need to do some introspection and realize that this problem is a lot bigger than "evil people" or "a vocal minority."

This shit is so fucking sad. Makes me so goddamn ashamed of my peers.

Can I ask what it is exactly that winds people up about her videos so much? Is it that people don't like hearing the truth? Because women are marginalised and objectified in games; surely this isn't some major revelation that people didn't realise or actively denied until now?!

 

[scoobidoo112]

No probably about it.

Yep. He's total trash.

Oh the irony...

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

When did I mention the MRA? I said that you can be against the current feminist movement and still be for equality. No idea what the MRA has to do with that? It was a general thought, not one about ThunderFoot himself.

I've watched thunderf00t's counterargument videos and they've never come across as particularly good or well thought out. They often seem forced, like they're just trying to nitpick every point raised. The calm presentation doesn't make up for the fact that it's pretty obvious that he sets out watching every Tropes video with a bone to pick with them based on their mere existence. Now, this all might seem unfair. But my willingness to accept him as a person engaging in the public debate in good faith goes completely out the window when I see tweets like: "wow 'anita sarkeesian forced to leave house due to harassment' story released to coincide with new video. A new low in attention-mongering,"

So, I'm perfectly fine dismissing him and his supporters.

Dismissing someone for legitimate reasons is different from labeling him a "misogynistic asshole looking for attention" and adding everyone who watches his videos on the same pile.

 

[SEGIII]

You can't have those w/o speaking to Anita directly?

I was under the belief that a discussion regarding her views had long dissipated. I'll seek out that other thread.

Even still, is it uncommon for an editorialist to speak directly with their audience? (Perhaps not individually in most cases).

 

[Fehyd]

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

Um, no. This is blatantly false.

 

[Paper Sparrow]

Stuff like this makes me tired. Tired of justifying myself and other women as gamers. Tired of fighting the "men also have it bad" crowd. I never post in threads like these anymore. Every one I read always takes a little more out of me.

It's disgusting, DISGUSTING, to treat another human being this way. All because she believes that maybe video games would be better if women weren't treated as objects. Maybe the world doesn't revolve around men and their problems. Maybe I want to see my demographic represented properly in a medium I enjoy.

You would think this wouldn't be too much to ask for, but it is treated as if it is this monumental thing that is impossible to overcome.

There is no money in it... most women aren't core gamers... I can't imagine playing as a girl... if women want to be equal, they shouldn't be catered to... it shouldn't matter that the main character is male, as long as he is written well... maybe if women became game designers, we would see more women...

Well, okay. I guess we should all do nothing. There are no problems here.

 

[anaron]

Um, no. This is blatantly false.

Lol, no, it's not.

 

[Gestault]

Didn't see anyone react to this post a few pages back, so I thought I'd quote it here. I think SkyOdin is on point. We can blame and/or dismiss any group we like, but I think we all need to do some introspection and realize that this problem is a lot bigger than "evil people" or "a vocal minority."

To be fair, this thread is about the particular, credible threats against Sarkeesian's safety, which now thankfully have police involvement. Yes, we are talking about a minority for the topic here. The harassment is indicative of the broader problem (which is undeniable), but I'd like to think that's distinct from this.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Feminism means different things to different people. Still, whether you agree with him or not, labeling him a misogynist because you disagree with him is pathetic (generally speaking, not aimed at you).

While there is some truth in the statement that "feminism means different things to different people", that is not what he's doing.

He assigns inaccurate attributes to feminism OR claims that feminist extremists represent the whole of feminism, and then uses that as his platform. It's disingenuous.

 

[sn00zer]

Let's not blame people with spectrum conditions for all the internet's trolling and misogyny. That study of internet trolls from earlier this year, for example, found that people who troll and harass are typically narcissistic, sadistic people, traits that are actually negatively correlated with conditions like Asperger's.

I know the temptation is great to blame mental illness for this stuff because the alternative explanation (that normal, regular people do this horrible shit) is so horrifying, but mental illness really isn't the cause.

No its not the cause, but in my experience the only person who was willing to find and harass people online further than just random internet comments had these issues and was largely left to his own devices, having many pent up frustrations. I am aware that there are plenty of adults who are have little to no mental health problems are also engaging in this who are truly committing evil acts.

 

[besada]

Is there anyway to contact this person? It'd be nice to hold a discussion regarding her topics instead of focusing on the attacks.

By "this person" I assume you mean Anita Sarkeesian? She has a twitter account, a web site, and presumably an email.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

That's really not true, nor something you could ever prove. There are plenty of people who use that label to mean they want absolute gender equality.

 

[dubq]

I was under the belief that a discussion regarding her views had long dissipated. I'll seek out that other thread.

Even still, is it uncommon for an editorialist to speak directly with their audience? (Perhaps not individually in most cases).

Even still, she was just threatened with death and rape and had to leave her house. In what world would she be actively seeking out an audience with people after this just happened?

 

[stufte]

Lol, no, it's not.

"lol" you're welcome to prove that.

 

[Fehyd]

Lol, no, it's not.

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

 

[Toxi]

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

Some kids who read the wrong things probably do. Eventually they either realize they're with a fucked-up crowd or become part of the fucked-up crowd.

The people actually trying to advocate men's rights really don't want any association with the label.

 

[dubq]

That's really not true, nor something you could ever prove. There are plenty of people who use that label to mean they want absolute gender equality.

I've never seen it used as anything other than a "call to action" for men to take back the world from the impending "feminist conspiracy" or the like.

 

[GungHo]

Actor from Firefly and the final season of Angel, oh and Full Metal Jacket. He also voices Superman in the DCUO MMO.

He's also on the surprisingly not cancelled Last Ship, with living GI Joe Eric Dane. I remember him best from 80s schlock like DC Cab and My Bodyguard, which also featured the debuts of both Joan Cusack and Jennifer Beals.

Not that I'm someone who is incapable of separating someone's personal life from their craft, but being perfectly honest, I liked Firefly -- in particular the Jane character -- a whole lot more before I was aware of the fact that Adam Baldwin is a right wing nutjob.

Yeah, let me also explain... I knew he was a right winger, I just had no idea how or why he was aware of video game "family business", so to speak. Honestly it'd be like Barack Obama talking about whether or not he thought Jimmie Johnson can catch up with Jeff Gordon in the final legs of the Sprint Cup.

 

[Akuun]

They're just going to go to Reddit and fester there. Someone had a link to that community in another thread. It's not pretty.

Which reddit? Redpill?

 

[Buzzman]

Oh christ, now we have the MRA brigade in here as well?

 

[Terrell]

Shit like this and the tweets posted make it clear that we most "arguments in good faith" on this subject are total bullshit.

 

[Gestault]

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

I'm a feminist, and I'm very interested in addressing cultural sexism for any gender group. I'm not alone in that intent. I think it's accurate to say that in general, self-identified Men's Rights Activists tend to be reactionary against feminism more than they're actually a novel response to social concerns.

Shit like this and the tweets posted make it clear that we most "arguments in good faith" on this subject are total bullshit.

Wait, what? As in these actions discredit all criticism on the topic? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Anfang]

Sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but anyone who calls themselves an MRA is not for any kind of equality.

The same can be said for the modern feminist running rampart in academia. The name itself lends itself to one side. You create one extreme and another on the opposite side pops up. Both sides have issues valid issues.

Might I recommend egalitarianism.

 

[RMI]

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

I understand what you're saying, but if one were actually interested in equality wouldn't it make more sense to support and identify with the group that has faced more discrimination and inequality in general? i.e. women?

 

[scoobidoo112]

Some kids who read the wrong things probably do. Eventually they either realize they're with a fucked-up crowd or become part of the fucked-up crowd.

Or the movement, much like feminism, has various branches with various goals and beliefs.

Personally I think "everyone is equal, everyone should be treated with the same amount of respect and everyone should be given equal opportunities" and throw the labels and movements out the window...

I understand what you're saying, but if one were actually interested in equality wouldn't it make more sense to support and identify with the group that has faced more discrimination and inequality in general? i.e. women?

If one was actually interested in equality one would support and identify with a group that stands for equality. Dot.

Besides, if you really want to support a group that has faced more discrimination and inequality in general then you should support black Americans...

 

[JackAubrey]

My point is that hitman is not a game where you kill strippers, so her whole critique is basically a lie. She misrepresents games constantly to fit her narrative (or agenda). That's where I take issue. Me not caring about stories is an aside.

No. You're missing her point completely. You can't call her critique a lie when it's clear you didn't even understand it. Her point was precisely that this wasn't a game about killing strippers.

Her point here was that this kind of violence against women is used to decorate games, with the suffering and brutality aimed at women being just another bit of atmosphere like newspapers blowing across the street or faded paint.

And she showed example after example after example of exactly this sort of thing. As thought devs just have a "brutalised woman" brush they lazily paint across levels to give them the kind of gritty excitement they are after.

I must admit I've really failed to take this on board in the past. But I am very aware of this now. I have a seven year old daughter and even in the most innocent of games one can see the continual degrading depiction of women. Even the most innocent - in gameplay terms - racing game will often still have loading screens featuring hyper-sexualised women with enormous breasts, meanwhile the guys, well they are just guys in some clothes.

My daughter likes playing games, she's dipping her toes in the clean end right now. But I fear that much of the industry is still pumping shit into the sewer and I've no wish for any of my children to explore games deeper any time soon.

 

[ishibear]

All she's aimed to do is get everyone talking about these issues in the gaming community. To bring attention to matters that if changed, would alter little in terms of what everyone has become accustomed to. And yet she is harassed, threatened and scared out of her home by assholes afraid of change and desperate to cling to misogyny...

Horrible.

I wish her safety and I hope these monsters get thrown in a cell.

 

[backlot]

That's really not true, nor something you could ever prove. There are plenty of people who use that label to mean they want absolute gender equality.

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

 

[Mowki Kowski]

Which reddit? Redpill?

Probably TumblrInAction. They're talking about this very situation in that subreddit.

It's not pretty.

 

[dubq]

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

I'm not talking about the overall MRM that started in the 1920's. I'm speaking about MRA in the sense that in recent years it has become a badge that overly misogynistic douchebags (voices of the voiceful, protectors of the protected) self-identify with and pin on themselves in order to be "counter" to some kind of imaginary feminist insurgency.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

A lot of times, I really do try and be diplomatic and open to conversation. And while I am happy to concede that there are egalitarians out there who resent that feminism may be overly concerned with issues facing women to the detriment of real issues men face, I honestly have zero problems throwing most MRAs under the bus. Yes, there are issues men face that deserve attention. Perhaps not all feminists are concerned with those issues. But that's as far as I will go. For the most part, though, people who openly identify as MRAs are largely deserving of nothing but ridicule. I will happily stand behind that statement.

 

[SEGIII]

Even still, she was just threatened with death and rape and had to leave her house. In what world would she be actively seeking out an audience with people after this just happened?

Does such a place exist where discussion can continue without hostility? Perhaps now is bad timing, but she can't just hide herself from her audience indefinitely if she's truly passionate about her message.

There needs to be a safer outlet.