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[Kano on the Phone]

Visibility doesn't really matter on a large scale. Devolution posts her thoughts about sexism, and this happens to her all the time on GAF, YouTube comments, related subreddits, Twitter, etc:

This is a woman who just posts on this gaming forum. Anita broadcasts to millions. I can't imagine what's happening to her every moment of every day.

This is why all of this is an important conversation to have. I've been posting on message boards for years and years, and never had anyone say anything close to this to me, let alone to carry that kind of vitriol to other corners of the internet, and I'm an asshole. It shouldn't be scary just to be a woman online.

 

[Vlade]

Perhaps. But it also makes it clear that we aren't one trick ponies concerned about one social issue and that we want good things for all people everywhere. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a more broad "equality" label.

People do well with specific purpose, and there is room for both messages even as compatable as they are.

They also seem quite incompatable in this case since the 'feminists' showed up here to lament the threats and the 'egalitarians' have shown up to marginalize them. Kind of makes your offer to incorporate their message ... something.

 

[ishibear]

I don't know about women saying men can't be feminists, but I do know that it's really defeating the purpose when you have men telling women what is feminism (it's kinda taking away their choice of what it means to them, I recommend asking "what do you think feminism is, or how does feminism appeal to you?").

The other worse case? Men supporting feminism to abuse the sense of empowerment it gives us. This is usually in the guise of men saying "stop shaming sexy dressed women". These same men will not be seen defending a woman who's dressed modestly. They will applaud her for being sexy, but not for being in control of her sexuality aka, if this woman clearly is uncomfortable wearing something, they will fight about how she should wear it, even if she doesn't want to.

Another example, ever seen the guys that like sexy girls, but once we refuse to sleep with them, suddenly we're bitches and hoes? Yeah, abusing the movement.

 

[Anfang]

This is why all of this is an important conversation to have. I've been posting on message boards for years and years, and never had anyone say anything close to this to me, let alone to carry that kind of vitriol to other corners of the internet, and I'm an asshole. It shouldn't be scary just to be a woman online.

Hard to say, but someone earlier had a point with the web not being all encompassing and have the anonymity. Most of the trolls who post shit like that would hopefully be gone, and if not they would be at least known.

 

[jon bones]

I want you imagine what would happen if say, she got an account here. Started a thread about her videos. Even here, which is arguably the safest not-all-women gaming site for women, what do imagine the reaction would be? Pages and pages and pages of people jumping all over every tiny thing and twisting her words. That's not something I'd want to do, that's for sure. Hell, I'm a pretty outspoken woman on this site and avoid the threads about her videos like the plague for similar reasons.

I can't imagine how awful it is. I mean, even with such strict moderation here, most discussions on the topic get derailed within a page or two.

Hard to say, but someone earlier had a point with the web not being all encompassing and have the anonymity. Most of the trolls who post shit like that would hopefully be gone, and if not they would be at least known.

Sadly, this isn't true. People with open Facebook accounts regularly post vile and disgusting shit all over news web sites comments.

Even Twitter people are responding to the random "thunder" guy with their real names spitting absolute lunacy.

Because, amazing as it may be to you, there are men and women who would like to work together for equality in everything without being tied down to a (like it or not) divisive term.

not to "no true scottsman" here but if people are interested in the ideals, they would understand how much more important it is to discuss that instead of whining about the name of the movement.

Prime example of why a rational discussion about this topic is virtually impossible. Whether you like ThunderFoot or not (as a person), he makes some good arguments and to dismiss him as if he is just a misogynistic asshole out to milk a topic for attention is ridiculous and just does damage to the conversation. You have someone making calm and argument-based video responses and he's still thrown on the pile of "women haters". Throwing all of his subscribers on this pile as well is even more ridiculous, as well as assuming all of them are men who "won't take it laying down".

wait seriously? i don't know why he's internet-famous but his tweets read like the ramblings of an insane person.

why would anyone even for a second seriously consider what this person had to say as though he were an intelligent adult and NOT a misogynistic asshole?

 

[stufte]

Why are dudes bitching over nomenclature? Women can't even coin a fucking term for a movement that aims to put them on even footing with their other halves without men going "WHAT ABOUT US?"

Because, amazing as it may be to you, there are men and women who would like to work together for equality in everything without being tied down to a (like it or not) divisive term.

 

[kirblar]

Understandable, but I've always seen those sorts of statements as being made in response to men using feminist terms and ideas as manipulative ways of getting women to trust them, not entirely about men needing the personal experience necessary to fill the role.

Feminism is a really big tent. It has a lot of generally accepted core tenets, but there's a lot of divergence/disagreement on the margins, and I think that makes it difficult to discuss in a vacuum, because two different people using the label could have severe differences in opinion on many issues.

How often do you hear that? Now, maybe more than ever (considering the mainstream support that feminism has gotten lately), there is a willingness and desire for male allies in the feminist movement.

I'm not sure people have to hear it more than a few times to become uncomfortable. Part of this is that the ones comfortable with male involvement aren't going to say anything, while the ones who are not are going to be vocal about it, creating a messaging disparity.

 

[Gekidami]

There used to be comments under her youtube videos. You can imagine how that turned out.

Actually there never really was. She's always closed them on all of the videos from the get-go.

And getting trolled on TY comments is no excuse for totally closing up from all criticism, and labelling anyone who doesnt agree with you as a sexist pig or whatever.

Shes literally never explained herself on anything shes put into those videos, no matter what it is people take issue with. I think the only occasion she actually interacted with someone who had a question was when one of her backers asked why it was taking her so damn long to make the videos... And she pretty much just told him/her to shutup.

 

[Anfang]

I don't know about women saying men can't be feminists, but I do know that it's really defeating the purpose when you have men telling women what is feminism (it's kinda taking away their choice of what it means to them, I recommend asking "what do you think feminism is, or how does feminism appeal to you?").

But isnt equality the end game for both sides? One decides and the other doesnt wouldnt fit that bill.

 

[Weltall Zero]

This is hilarious.
I don't even feel bad for this person. She's making money from lies and deceit.

And it's your second post ever. Wow.

I say, when I was waiting for my account's activation (over half a year), GAF's registration policies were painful, but oh boy do I now enjoy that we only have to put up with rancid spew like this every several months. It makes reading these posts (and knowing that the person responsible won't contaminate GAF ever again, at least from that IP) much more bearable.

 

[Anfang]

I.
Sadly, this isn't true. People with open Facebook accounts regularly post vile and disgusting shit all over news web sites comments.

Even Twitter people are responding to the random "thunder" guy with their real names spitting absolute lunacy.

I would wager most of those facebook accounts arent real, but that also leads to the other point is if the biggest group of trolls were gone it would be easier to spot those who just want to be dicks with no real discussion and deal with them.

 

[Frodo]

People do want to turn away from the problem and start discussing about the problem men face in relation to lack of representation in feminism, right?

While I do agree that men do face loads of unnecessary problems related to gender roles and the absolute presence of importance that masculinity represents in their lives I believe that blaming feminists for not being interested enough in those issues are, simply put, ridiculous. Men are still in a situation of privilege, and if they want to fight to change the way society as a whole pressure them to assume these aforementioned roles it is THEIR JOB to do so, and not something that the feminist movement should be focused on. The fact that this subject comes up almost every time we discuss feminism, only shows how much we still need it. That being said, I believe that most, if not all, feminists would agree with the complaints. But you can not ask a woman to care about a problem that afflicts men when they have so much in their plate already.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Actually there never really was. She's always closed them on all of the videos from the get-go.

And getting trolled on TY comments is no excuse for totally closing up from all criticism, and labelling anyone who doesnt agree with you as a sexist pig or whatever.

Shes literally never explained herself on anything shes put into those videos, no matter what it is people take issue with. I think the only occasion she actually interacted with someone who had a question was when one of her backers asked why it was taking her so damn long to make the videos... And she pretty much just told him/her to shutup.

Before her tropes videos, she open them for a while to make a point on internet hate, the closed them again.

 

[besada]

Watch her speeches or listen to her podcast if you really want to know.

As far as I can tell, after reading her and watching her speeches, she's mostly focused on making sure everyone knows that feminism is bad, and that women have powers of persuasion that allow them to manipulate men into doing things that are bad for them. Is there a particular speech or essay you think is useful?

 

[dubq]

And getting trolled on TY comments is no excuse for totally closing up from all criticism, and labelling anyone who doesnt agree with you as a sexist pig or whatever.

When did she do that?

 

[scoobidoo112]

To the person asking for the tweets

Here you go

Straight from her twitter.

 

[RMI]

Actually there never really was. She's always closed them on all of the videos from the get-go.

My bad, I think you're right about this, and thinking back it was the backlash from the Kickstarter which made her close the comments on the videos. So, I guess let me refine my point: There used to be comments even BEFORE there were videos, and you can Imagine how that went.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

My bad, I think you're right about this, and thinking back it was the backlash from the Kickstarter which made her close the comments on the videos. So, I guess let me refine my point: There used to be comments even BEFORE there were videos, and you can Imagine how that went.

I bet it was a lot of constructive real talk that sought to advise her on how she might improve her video series.

 

[Vlade]

Because, amazing as it may be to you, there are men and women who would like to work together for equality in everything without being tied down to a (like it or not) divisive term.

They certainly can and will. That doesn't mean one ideology should come recruiting from a similar one by a very awkward condescension. Some people start with ultimate ideals. some people start in the world we live in.

 

[Kelthink]

Shes literally never explained herself on anything shes put into those videos, no matter what it is people take issue with.

What does this mean?

 

[Gekidami]

I want you imagine what would happen if say, she got an account here. Started a thread about her videos. Even here, which is arguably the safest not-all-women gaming site for women, what do imagine the reaction would be? Pages and pages and pages of people jumping all over every tiny thing and twisting her words. That's not something I'd want to do, that's for sure. Hell, I'm a pretty outspoken woman on this site and avoid the threads about her videos like the plague for similar reasons.

The only thing worst than someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them, go into detail and/or defend them is someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them go into detail and/or defend and has random people on the internet make up excuses for them.

Please, what a load of horse shit. She could pick any medium she likes, it doesnt even have to be pubic like a forum. You think shes never been invited to a podcast or the like? But maybe you think she just cant defend herself, because shes too fragile... Maybe because shes a women?

Man, now isnt that sexist.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

My bad, I think you're right about this, and thinking back it was the backlash from the Kickstarter which made her close the comments on the videos. So, I guess let me refine my point: There used to be comments even BEFORE there were videos, and you can Imagine how that went.

It was pretty nasty, but she also rejected to answer any valid comment or complaint.

 

[stufte]

not to "no true scottsman" here but if people are interested in the ideals, they would understand how much more important it is to discuss that instead of whining about the name of the movement.

It is possible to do both. Calling it whining though, I'm not sure that's an accurate descriptor for what people are doing, or are you trying to devalue the conversation by calling it that?

 

[ishibear]

But isnt equality the end game for both sides? One decides and the other doesnt wouldnt fit that bill.

Men generally know what they want and have more freedom to achieve it. But women migrate to the movement to get power we wouldn't have on our own. Men will never quite have to endure the madness women face, so it's not easy for them to relate to why a woman may not feel strong on her own.

By asking, we can tell you what we desire feminism to do for us. It's not saying you can't give the overall answer for what feminism represents to a woman (she asks what's feminism, guy says "feminism gives everyone equality because it allows women to have a choice and freedom to live outside of gender norms and standards. What would you like to be free to do without society demanding different of you?" Is much more appropriate response.).

 

[J10]

Because, amazing as it may be to you, there are men and women who would like to work together for equality in everything without being tied down to a (like it or not) divisive term.

Nah, fuck that. It's men just trying to take control of another thing. It's a movement designed to improve the status of women - and not at the expense of men. Men can join it without trying to yank the wheel away at every turn. If there is a reasonable argument against the term, I haven't heard anything aside from "that word makes me feel like a pussy" couched in bullshit rhetoric.

If you find the term divisive, that's your issue, not the movement's. Understand that the term is named in response to a certain kind of oppression. The name clues you in on what women are up against. You can't justify taking away the name with this simple ME TOO ME TOO bullshit.

 

[Gestault]

I don't know about women saying men can't be feminists, but I do know that it's really defeating the purpose when you have men telling women what is feminism (it's kinda taking away their choice of what it means to them, I recommend asking "what do you think feminism is, or how does feminism appeal to you?").

The other worse case? Men supporting feminism to abuse the sense of empowerment it gives us. This is usually in the guise of men saying "stop shaming sexy dressed women". These same men will not be seen defending a woman who's dressed modestly. They will applaud her for being sexy, but not for being in control of her sexuality aka, if this woman clearly is uncomfortable wearing something, they will fight about how she should wear it, even if she doesn't want to.

Another example, ever seen the guys that like sexy girls, but once we refuse to sleep with them, suddenly we're bitches and hoes? Yeah, abusing the movement.

Since we know that in practice, not all women see feminism the same way, I'd disagree with this idea. If feminism is about an individual feeling empowered during discourse compared to others, rather than the underlying ideas and goals, I think that's a bad outlook for a social movement. Ego needs to come out of it, and yes, that means that people of either gender can understand why feminism is important and communicate those ideas to others. If you believe otherwise, wouldn't that make the goals of feminism impossible?

 

[Amir0x]

It's a shame because there are perfectly legitimate criticisms to be had of her video content, yet it's impossible to want to go all-in on them because of the nonsense she has to deal with for even striking up a conversation on this subject.

People are beyond fucked up, and gamers in this industry need to fight back against this shit.

 

[Netherscourge]

It's crazy that I'm actually forced to agree with this . I've been an asshole on the internet before but this... These people belong in prison.

I cant help but revisit the whole "REAL ID" thing Blizzard wanted to do a couple years ago - make it mandatory for everyone to show their REAL NAME on forum posts and in-game friend's lists/guild lists.

They ultimately changed their minds after massive backlash from privacy advocates and made it an optional system. (Someone retaliated by exposing one of the Blizzard CM's real name, address, phone number and social information revealing their next BBQ and stuff...creepy)

But if you look at how TOXIC the WoW community had become at the time (Barren's Chat, Dead Baby Jokes in Trade Chat, PuG raiding arguments, etc...) while towing some 12 million active subscribers... it makes you wonder how quickly those people would have shut their mouths for fear of not only being banned from the game, but having someone show up at their front door with a grudge or a pair of handcuffs/arrest warrant.

It would have been an interesting social experiment, had Blizzard not chickened out for fear of losing money.

I bet the WoW chat channels and community would have been DRAMATICALLY better than it was.

Likewise, I wonder how toxic the internet would be right now if it wasn't anonymous? If everyone on Twitter or Comment Sections or Web Forums or anywhere had their real names posted along with them?

I have a feeling we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be no controversy in the first place. The sociopaths would go back to their basements and never bothering posting anything. Most people, in fact, wouldn't bother posting anything.

I'd bet online harassment would drop by like 70% overnight because not only would harassers be exposed, but everything they posted could be cataloged as evidence.

The internet would be a much quieter place all around.

 

[Buzzman]

Actually there never really was. She's always closed them on all of the videos from the get-go.

And getting trolled on TY comments is no excuse for totally closing up from all criticism, and labelling anyone who doesnt agree with you as a sexist pig or whatever.

I think this explains why she doesn't allow comments.


Edit: Here's a sample:

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It was pretty nasty, but she also rejected to answer any valid comment or complaint.

I can understand how this is disappointing, but can you also understand that she knows exactly what will happen if she ever comments on anything?

 

[RMI]

Please, what a load of horse shit. She could pick any medium she likes, it doesnt even have to be pubic like a forum. You think shes never been invited to a podcast or the like? But maybe you think she just cant defend herself, because shes too fragile... Maybe because shes a women?

Man, now isnt that sexist.

You are going off the deep end here, friend.

 

[Kelthink]

The only thing worst than someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them, go into detail and/or defend them is someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them go into detail and/or defend and has random people on the internet make up excuses for them.

Please, what a load of horse shit. She could pick any medium she likes, it doesnt even have to be pubic like a forum. You think shes never been invited to a podcast or the like? But maybe you think she just cant defend herself, because shes too fragile... Maybe because shes a women?

Man, now isnt that sexist.

What the fuck are you talking about? This would be like people who make documentaries about global warming having to answer to dipshit denialists.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

It is possible to do both. Calling it whining though, I'm not sure that's an accurate descriptor for what people are doing, or are you trying to devalue the conversation by calling it that?

I don't understand your motivation. Like, what's the doomsday scenario here?

 

[NumberThree]

The only thing worst than someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them, go into detail and/or defend them is someone who makes claims and refuses to explain them go into detail and/or defend and has random people on the internet make up excuses for them.

Please, what a load of horse shit. She could pick any medium she likes, it doesnt even have to be pubic like a forum. You think shes never been invited to a podcast or the like? But maybe you think she just cant defend herself, because shes too fragile... Maybe because shes a women?

Man, now isnt that sexist.

Well done, your argument of putting words in their mouths is sure to make them see the error in their way.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I know Tim Schafer refers to it quite a bit, especially with that whole Jontron-Schafer Twitter spat.

But I haven't heard from guys like Kojima, Miyamoto, Levine, Cliffy B, Denis Dyack, et al.

I'd like to know how they feel about her and whether that has made any real impact.

Druckmann, CliffB, the Bioshock 2 devs, Tim Schafer, all responded positively. Druckmann says her videos influenced the writing in The Last of Us.

So yes, she's relevant and she's making an impact, which is very encouraging. I admit though, much as I love Legacy of Kain and Eternal Darkness, I laughed at Denis Dyack being included in a list of relevant devs. xD SK is bankrupt and Precursor Games has no money to do anything.

Seems he probably didn't have to try too hard to accurately portray that character.

Now that's just really mean.

Spoiler

Jane is actually likeable.

 

[Scofield94941]

First time watching her videos and she makes valid points. I dont understand gamers being angry over it. What are they getting angry about? Do they want to make sure objectifying women stays in games?

 

[stufte]

Nah, fuck that. It's men just trying to take control of another thing. It's a movement designed to improve the status of women - and not at the expense of men. Men can join it without trying to yank the wheel away at every turn. If there is a reasonable argument against the term, I haven't heard anything aside from "that word makes me feel like a pussy" couched in bullshit rhetoric.

If you find the term divisive, that's your issue, not the movement's. Understand that the term is named in response to a certain kind of oppression. The name clues you in on what women are up against. You can't justify taking away the name with this simple ME TOO ME TOO bullshit.

Equality can't be attained without working together, and that's not men telling women what to do, it's a conversation about how things can be equal for everyone.

I'm a feminist if you were to talk with me for a while, but I'm much more complex than that and don't wish to be pigeon-holed by those who like to make snap judgments about labels.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

This subject sure is motivating a lot of lurkers to post, haha.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Equality can't be attained without working together, and that's not men telling women what to do, it's a conversation about how things can be equal for everyone.

I'm a feminist if you were to talk with me for a while, but I'm much more complex than that and don't wish to be pigeon-holed by those who like to make snap judgments about labels.

so, correct me if I'm misrepresenting your argument: you're against affirmative action?

 

[RageBot]

Feminism is focused on this.

I feel the need to bring this to attention so that maybe this can be helpful.

Feminism helps men as much as women. Feminism is encouraging men to be free of traditional standards, such as being the bread winner, having to be the picture of masculinity and a protector, etc.

Feminism grants men a window of opportunity to make choices for themselves as well. You don't want to be the provider? You can find a girl who works and be a team. You don't want to come out of pocket at a date? A woman can work and pay for dinner now too.

You don't want to settle down and marry early? Good news, it's less shameful for women to enjoy their single life too. They can even buy condoms, birth control to enjoy a sex life without slut accusations.

This is what feminism strives for, and men do benefit from it.

Can you show me a popular mainstream feminist that talks about that subject? Not just talks but focuses on it.
This is one of the main problems people state against "modern feminism", and I haven't yet found a popular feminist that talks about this subject.

 

[stufte]

so, correct me if I'm misrepresenting your argument: you're against affirmative action?

dafuq?

 

[Anton Sugar]

I'm not sure people have to hear it more than a few times to become uncomfortable. Part of this is that the ones comfortable with male involvement aren't going to say anything, while the ones who are not are going to be vocal about it, creating a messaging disparity.

I have identified as a feminist for the past seven years of my life. During that time, I've met a lot of feminists (mostly women), and only one took issue with the idea of a "male feminist".

Even then, it was a very difficult conversation for her to have, as she was clearly working through how she felt about it. Her viewpoint was that, as a white male, one is so far removed from the experience of women and particularly women of color, that it is not possible or too difficult to really empathize with women.

Again--this was one person and it became an emotional argument (she was arguing with a guy who identified as feminist), one that she may have ended up regretted.

I really do not think it is a common occurrence, though. Any hesitation probably comes from not being sure if one understands the root of feminism and feminist ideas. I know that, in my seven years "as a feminist", I have learned a LOT and am embarrassed by things I have said or viewpoints I have held as recently as a few years ago.

 

[Ziffles]

so, correct me if I'm misrepresenting your argument: you're against affirmative action?

This is probably not a good idea.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Druckmann says her videos influenced the writing in The Last of Us.

I love this.

More Games of the Year, please.

 

[boiled goose]

People making threats online should be prosecuted.

 

[Wazzy]

This is so disgusting. I feel horrible that she has to deal with these sexist assholes threatening her.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Can you show me a popular mainstream feminist that talks about that subject? Not just talks but focuses on it.
This is one of the main problems people state against "modern feminism", and I haven't yet found a popular feminist that talks about this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0896086283/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0743456084/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's not really talked about because it's been covered for decades. People just don't do the research or try very hard, so feminists get understandably frustrated about having to re-explain a lot to an audience that appears mainly just to be looking for logic holes anyway.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Men will never quite have to endure the madness women face, so it's not easy for them to relate to why a woman may not feel strong on her own.

I dislike broad statements like these. Everyone suffers. Men, women, children, gays, lesbians, transgenders, bisexuals, minorities, you name it. It is not a competition between genders and which one suffers most.

Humans have faced all kinds of atrocities, from genocide to slavery, concentration camps to nuclear bombs and from institutionalized racism to institutionalized sexism. All of their suffering is legit and not measurable on some scale.

There are plenty of women who have amazing lives and plenty of men who have shitty lives and vice versa. Like I said, it should never become a competition, nor should people be placed on two big piles. I acknowledge that women face more issues on the planet right now then men, but I definitely dislike statements such as this.

 

[Linkark07]

I once wiped a raid because I spoke on vent. SPOKE. I think I said 'Yep, got it.' after a raid leader asked me a question.

Believe you. Since I was mostly a "freelancer" on my WoW days as a raid healer, if a girl talked on Ventrilo, most became crazy and annoyed the hell out of her. My reaction was: really?

Surprisingly though, in my guild we had some girls and we treated them normally.

 

[RMI]

It's why I use usernames that are impossible to google.

Your user name makes perfect sense now. very clever.