Have you considered the possibility that if you need to stretch out a long causal chain of exact conversational contexts in order to explain your statement because it sounds bad without all those carefully-noted provisos, it might be because what you said is kind of messed up?
Someone said "Men can't understand the suffering of women" and I said "I disagree, let's not make suffering a competition".
So no, what I said is perfectly rational and I'm in no way going to apologize for it. I've stated a thousand times that I stand for "equality for all" and I've also acknowledged that "women face more issues than men". If that's not good enough for you then I can't help you. I feel like I've been extremely respectful and careful with my words in this thread so I don't think I have done or said anything that I should apologize for or not stand by.
Someone said "Men can't understand the suffering of women" and I said "I disagree, let's not make suffering a competition".
So no, what I said is perfectly rational and I'm in no way going to apologize for it. I've stated a thousand times that I stand for "equality for all" and I've also acknowledged that "women face more issues than men". If that's not good enough for you then I can't help you. I feel like I've been extremely respectful and careful with my words in this thread so I don't think I have anything to apologize for.
All I can think about when hearing this kind of news is who these people are and what drives them to these actions.
Internet trolling or flamebaiting or whatever is one thing but I just don't know how any functioning human being can put themselves out there and attach themselves to these kinds of threats with no repercussions, especially when this isn't just from throwaway accounts either.
Someone said "Men can't understand the suffering of women" and I said "I disagree, let's not make suffering a competition".
So no, what I said is perfectly rational and I'm in no way going to apologize for it. I've stated a thousand times that I stand for "equality for all" and I've also acknowledged that "women face more issues than men". If that's not good enough for you then I can't help you. I feel like I've been extremely respectful and careful with my words in this thread so I don't think I have done or said anything that I should apologize for or not stand by.
This reminds me of the Malcolm X quote where he says the healing doesn't start until they pull out the knife, but "they won't even acknowledge the knife is there."
I understand not wanting to get into Oppression Olympics, but I feel you're jumping to that when it's more important to acknowledge that a group is being institutionally oppressed without having to add qualifiers about everyone else, too. At that point, we're not sure what you want. Note how your repeated insistence has clearly shifted conversations including you away from actual social problems and more into just talking about yourself and men in a thread about a woman needing to move out of her house due to death and rape threats. I know that wasn't your intention, but people are trying to get you to see that. What we say, when we say it, where we say it, and how we say it matters, even if what you're saying is logically sound.
Which is nothing. If youve seen the stream you know the character she plays. That character caters to the trolls but has also brought her a lot of money. If they didnt exist she would be another rando streamer making nothing.
I cant help but revisit the whole "REAL ID" thing Blizzard wanted to do a couple years ago - make it mandatory for everyone to show their REAL NAME on forum posts and in-game friend's lists/guild lists.
They ultimately changed their minds after massive backlash from privacy advocates and made it an optional system. (Someone retaliated by exposing one of the Blizzard CM's real name, address, phone number and social information revealing their next BBQ and stuff...creepy)
But if you look at how TOXIC the WoW community had become at the time (Barren's Chat, Dead Baby Jokes in Trade Chat, PuG raiding arguments, etc...) while towing some 12 million active subscribers... it makes you wonder how quickly those people would have shut their mouths for fear of not only being banned from the game, but having someone show up at their front door with a grudge or a pair of handcuffs/arrest warrant.
It would have been an interesting social experiment, had Blizzard not chickened out for fear of losing money.
I bet the WoW chat channels and community would have been DRAMATICALLY better than it was.
Likewise, I wonder how toxic the internet would be right now if it wasn't anonymous? If everyone on Twitter or Comment Sections or Web Forums or anywhere had their real names posted along with them?
Just want to second that bell hooks recommendation--great book, easy read. Some of my friends even carry a spare copy to give to people they meet who have questions about feminism.
Which is nothing. If youve seen the stream you know the character she plays. That character caters to the trolls but has also brought her a lot of money. If they didnt exist she would be another rando streamer making nothing.
I think you've confused his comparisons with other entertainment with his point. He's saying that the actions of some awful people who call themselves "gamers" shouldn't tarnish the image of all of us. Do you disagree with that?
I prefer the term "enthusiast", myself, but I will continue to proudly identify with my hobby, and hopefully I can offset the negative stereotypes a bit, and also offset the vile behavior being discussed in this thread.
So, basically...#notallgamers
I hope Anita is okay, and stays that way. I've only seen one of her videos (and didn't agree with all of it), but this thread has let me know that she's making some difference in the development community just by raising awareness. Good for her!
I was actually one of the people very much against the READ ID thing.
Because being a woman on the internet is TERRIFYING. As this thread proves. It's why I use usernames that are impossible to google. It's why I am very careful with personal info. I've been online since I was small, and I learned a long time ago that revealing yourself to be a woman in certain places will lead to a bunch of shit you don't want to deal with. Wow being one of them. I can play female characters all I want, people will still assume I am a guy. If my real, very feminine name is slapped up there as well, can you imagine the shit I'd have to deal with?
I once wiped a raid because I spoke on vent. SPOKE. I think I said 'Yep, got it.' after a raid leader asked me a question.
Sure, it might change behavior eventually, but I am not sure I want to be in the inital phase of such a thing, considering the types of harassment I've gotten before.
It would have had far more downsides than positives. I remember being annoyed about the Real ID thing for the same reason. I went to a lot of trouble hiding my gender for a long time to try and avoid issues because I was quite young and was quite frankly afraid. Having my name sign posted when ever I typed was something that I really didn't want, I'd have probably avoided Blizzard's stuff if they'd have continued a long with it. It would have meant any time you even said something remotely questionable, you'd have probably gotten google searched and harassed on some social site if they found you. It wouldn't have made people act much better either. People still act like idiots even on facebook and twitter with their full name.
This reminds me of the Malcolm X quote where he says the healing doesn't start until they pull out the knife, but "they won't even acknowledge the knife is there."
Fairly inappropriate as I very strongly acknowledge and fight against the suffering of minorities, women and LGBTs. No need to make any assumptions about me.
I understand not wanting to get into Oppression Olympics, but I feel you're jumping to that when it's more important to acknowledge that a group is being institutionally oppressed without having to add qualifiers about everyone else, too. At that point, we're not sure what you want. Note how your repeated insistence has clearly shifted conversations including you away from actual social problems and more into just talking about yourself and men in a thread about a woman needing to move out of her house due to death and rape threats. I know that wasn't your intention, but people are trying to get you to see that. What we say, when we say it, where we say it, and how we say it matters, even if what you're saying is logically sound.
I just wanted to refute a single statement by a single poster. That multiple people jump me for it, question what I stand for (yet again) and accuse me of derailing isn't on me but on them. The poster of the message I responded to said she wasn't interested in furthering that conversation so I didn't further my conversation with her. Instead I've had to defend myself from various other posters. Anyways I'll leave now, since I'm not feeling very welcome and I have plenty of stuff to do anyway, so feel free to not let me derail this thread any further.
NeoGaf is incredible, actually. Even though yeah, there is STILL a ton of stuff that is awful here, it is the best community online for women gamers that isn't a 'women gamers' community. And it's simply because the moderation team doesn't tolerate much shit when it comes to these issues. Which is awesome.
The best forums are always the most visibly moderated. I've walked away from other places where the moderation was, when it was present at all, invisible. It's really hard to shape behavior if you don't make an example of the worst offenders.
Obviously that isn't what I meant. My point was that all people suffer in some way and it is unfair to say that suffering X is worse than suffering Y as if it is a competition. That is not the same as noting that "women face more issues than men". I was replying to a very specific comment and nothing else.
So a better example would be that you don't compare the suffering of a young male teenager that commits suicide over being gay with a young female teenager that commits suicide over slut-shaming, and then make statements like "the guy can never understand the suffering of the girl".
Well, he can't. Because you're ignoring the very important distinction about what provides the impetus behind the suffering.
Either might understand the scale of each other's suffering, but neither can necessarily understand the specific type of, and issues behind, each other's suffering. How would a gay man understand the female-specific suffering caused by slutshaming? How would a straight woman understand the doubt or self-torment behind struggling with one's sexuality?
That's the point you're missing here. Sure, everyone suffers, no shit. But you're ignoring and setting aside the very crucial why. Women have to suffer unique challenges and harassment and overtakes because they are women, things that men will never have to face or understand, at least to nearly the same degree. Same for gay people, or ethnic minorities, or whatever. Each group faces unique issues they shouldn't and wouldn't if we acknowledged and solved these problems instead of getting defensive at the suggestion that men won't understand the challenges women face by saying "but everyone suffers too!"
Because let's revisit your example. When I was a teenager struggling with my sexuality, I didn't comprehend or understand the suffering one of my female friends went through when she faced slutshaming. And she didn't comprehend the suffering gay men went through for their sexuality. How could she? She didn't have to struggle with her identity or who she was or the ramifications of that.
The point is that you're seemingly fixated on the scale when you disagree with men not understanding the suffering of women, because both groups suffer, when the point was about understanding what that suffering would feel like or facing the issues that caused it. I think you've said you suffer depression in the past? Think of how many people don't understand what you're going through -- "get over it, shake it off" -- even though they suffer other things too.
Edit: agh, been typing this on mobile for a while so I didn't see your above post. If you don't wish to engage further, then ignore.
Please let's not go too far towards generalization in that direction, either. I was a textbook "geek". Never kissed a girl until well after high school, for example. That's not what makes a guy a jerk or a woman hater. It's neither an excuse for the jerks, nor is it okay to assume that jerks have that kind of background.
Fairly inappropriate as I very strongly acknowledge and fight against the suffering of minorities, women and LGBTs. No need to make any assumptions about me.
The best forums are always the most visibly moderated. I've walked away from other places where the moderation was, when it was present at all, invisible. It's really hard to shape behavior if you don't make an example of the worst offenders.
I mean, look at Reddit. Specific moderation goals and policies will attract and repel certain types of people. I get the feeling GAF wants to be above Reddit (at least most of the main subreddits) when it comes to gamers discussing social issues.
I've taken the day to cool down and hopefully not just post an incoherent rant, but I get the feeling this is going to be fairly close to one.
I have had enough of this bullshit behaviour and I'm not even one of the people unlucky enough to be targeted for it.
The past fortnight has been a watershed moment for me. I've always been pro-equality and whilst it's been frustrating, I've played nice with the opposite viewpoint. No more.
From here on, I don't let it slide. I don't think "Oh, they'll learn". I don't roll my eyes. If I see anyone here or on any other media propagating a bullshit line of "defence" I will call you out because these people are making me ashamed to be a gamer.
I'm sick of people going "SJWs are stifling my opinions by jumping down my throat". I ask those of you doing so to just think for ten seconds and ask yourself: "Hey, is the reason people are getting this upset with me because I'm wrong?"
These attitudes and the actions of the extreme elements are what are stifling progression. Nobody wants to take your games away. Nobody wants to censor what you already have or will be getting. Nobody wants to make out that you are a horrible person for having played these games. The point of Anita's videos have been to show what lazy, regressive tropes have been prevalent so that established and up-and-coming developers can choose to try and do it differently next time.
Sure, the videos are not 100% perfect in their execution yet. This is fairly new territory they're treading in the grand scheme of things. There are points that both you and I can critique and praise. However, dismissing them entirely is not a valid stance. If that is you, then You. Are. Wrong.
I'm not going to respect that sort of position any more because it doesn't deserve it. I'm no longer going to balance the scales whilst one group pretends there are no scales and another takes a sledgehammer to them.
This is what a campaign of bullshit has driven me to.
Just want to put a +1 on this.
Just ridiculous and embarrassing on how often we see heterosexual, white, male individuals try and claim that inequality is not a problem.
From my point of view, part of the problem of Anita's video is mainly that it only focuses on women. Most of what she says is right on many levels and I would only argue against the way she presents her ideas and some examples she uses. I know that pointing a finger at the representation of women is the whole point of those videos but I think a study of both gender representation would benefit a lot to this discussion. For many reasons, as a young white guy, I just hate Duke Nukem and all the dudebros of Gears of War because I just hate how these games depict males. A lot of praise were given to Druckmann for the character of Elie, but meeting Joel was more of a relief for me, even though he can be seen as "bad" character.
One of the main subject of the many things I read is this idea of "white male" to describe the majority that has power. It occupies a lot of the threads I read on the subject, sometimes more than Anita's arguments. Even though I completely understand the idea behind those words, I also completely understand how agressive they might seem for someone that read them for the first time. A lot of this vocabulary comes from the 70's when feminist activism needed to have punchlines to exist and be heard. I feel like some of the guys that watch Anita's video take all this for themselves, maybe thinking Anitas is pointing a finger at them and is declaring them guilty of hating women. Add to this that a lot of those guys use videogame as escapism from being a teenager, from school and its violence and you have an explosive situation.
I don't watch her videos but that's still a shitty deal. Scary, and just flat out makes me ashamed that people who are 'gamers' could say those things.
But see, the movement is about giving women a choice. For such a long time, every woman has been seen as the same thing, time and again. Every woman wants to be a housewife, a nurse, etc, but women are not a hivemind. We have our own wants.
Some women want freedom to enjoy their sexuality. Some women want to preserve themselves for marriage. Some want to dance, some want be rappers. All of these women will tell you a different way sexism has damaged their progress. That is why feminism is about the individual, and varies but ultimately means~ giving women a choice.
If feminism says feminism is about women who work, it benefits the nurse, but not the housewife. If feminism says, give women more jobs meant for men, the women who don't want those jobs don't benefit. That is why it's best to ask women what they want from feminism. Because feminism is that flexible.
I want feminism to help minorities take our identity back instead of being seen as fetish fuel and being objectified. I want feminism to embrace the struggles of female minorities and give us something to be proud of~ boost us up so that creepy dudes stop assuming we need to be taken away from our "evil men" when instead, we need all men to see our worth. We don't need rescue, we need options and encouragement.
I've taken the day to cool down and hopefully not just post an incoherent rant, but I get the feeling this is going to be fairly close to one.
I have had enough of this bullshit behaviour and I'm not even one of the people unlucky enough to be targeted for it.
The past fortnight has been a watershed moment for me. I've always been pro-equality and whilst it's been frustrating, I've played nice with the opposite viewpoint. No more.
From here on, I don't let it slide. I don't think "Oh, they'll learn". I don't roll my eyes. If I see anyone here or on any other media propagating a bullshit line of "defence" I will call you out because these people are making me ashamed to be a gamer.
I'm sick of people going "SJWs are stifling my opinions by jumping down my throat". I ask those of you doing so to just think for ten seconds and ask yourself: "Hey, is the reason people are getting this upset with me because I'm wrong?"
These attitudes and the actions of the extreme elements are what are stifling progression. Nobody wants to take your games away. Nobody wants to censor what you already have or will be getting. Nobody wants to make out that you are a horrible person for having played these games. The point of Anita's videos have been to show what lazy, regressive tropes have been prevalent so that established and up-and-coming developers can choose to try and do it differently next time.
Sure, the videos are not 100% perfect in their execution yet. This is fairly new territory they're treading in the grand scheme of things. There are points that both you and I can critique and praise. However, dismissing them entirely is not a valid stance. If that is you, then You. Are. Wrong.
I'm not going to respect that sort of position any more because it doesn't deserve it. I'm no longer going to balance the scales whilst one group pretends there are no scales and another takes a sledgehammer to them.
This is what a campaign of bullshit has driven me to.
On the censorship part, this idiotic talking point creeps up in every conversation about inclusion and I'd like to point out and stress that the ones censored or silenced at this point are the ones who have to endure actual threats and shit flinging, not the poor imaginary developer who was told to put a woman in a game or cover her a bit more.
I mean, look at Reddit. Specific moderation goals and policies will attract and repel certain types of people. I get the feeling GAF wants to be above Reddit (at least most of the main subreddits) when it comes to gamers discussing social issues.
I don't know what's the problem with reddit, since from what I saw the up/downvote things just get the more well written/interesting posts to the top most of the time.
About the rest - yeah, it does make sense, however I do find that sometimes, a lot of people here can allow themselves to be asshole-ish towards other people, or talk in very condescending tones, if they don't agree with the other person's worldview regarding certain subjects (such as the "feminism" debate in this thread).
From my point of view, part of the problem of Anita's video is mainly that it only focuses on women. Most of what she says is right on many levels and I would only argue against the way she presents her ideas and some examples she uses. I know that pointing a finger at the representation of women is the whole point of those videos but I think a study of both gender representation would benefit a lot to this discussion. For many reasons, as a young white guy, I just hate Duke Nukem and all the dudebros of Gears of War because I just hate how these games depict males. A lot of praise were given to Druckmann for the character of Elie, but meeting Joel was more of a relief for me, even though he can be seen as "bad" character.
One of the main subject of the many things I read is this idea of "white male" to describe the majority that has power. It occupies a lot of the threads I read on the subject, sometimes more than Anita's arguments. Even though I completely understand the idea behind those words, I also completely understand how agressive they might seem for someone that read them for the first time. A lot of this vocabulary comes from the 70's when feminist activism needed to have punchlines to exist and be heard. I feel like some of the guys that watch Anita's video take all this for themselves, maybe thinking Anitas is pointing a finger at them and is declaring them guilty of hating women. Add to this that a lot of those guys use videogame as escapism from being a teenager, from school and its violence and you have an explosive situation.
The disempowered (or those who feel they're disempowered) are easily motivated to lash out socially in any way they can. That applies to the monsters behind the threats to Sarkeesian's life just as much as it does the overly-aggressive segments of the Feminist movement.
Subsequent context: One of those examples is rightfully illegal, and the other is merely annoying. Think about that before they're equated in anyone's mind.
I know ! I'm not saying that she should have done that. Maybe I just hope that someone would have done it as a complement of her videos. I'm just trying to understand how all this shit happened... what went throught the mind of the people who threatened her.
The question I want to see answered is how long are we going to allow Twitter and the like to be used as tools with which to intimidate and oppress people?
Its insane. Its gives these fuckers the attention they crave so its not just a weapon its a massive enabler.
I don't know what's the problem with reddit, since from what I saw the up/downvote things just get the more well written/interesting posts to the top most of the time.
Definitely not true in any way. I can see how you can see it that way, but from my perspective, Scumbag Stacy and sexist jokes along those lines are usually at the top of most comment sections in a story about women. Also TwoXChromosomes is now a default subreddit, and it hasn't been any fun in there since that started, though I can see how it looks safe at first since they have to do so much moderation to make it presentable.
I did not mean to imply that all guys who grew up geeky resented women, only that it seems from my perspective that many gamers who do seem to resent women, especially women gamers, seem to point at the fact that they were rejected by the popular girls in high school as to why.
Not trying to excuse the behavior either. My own post may have been colored some of my own bitterness at being subjected to things I have being a female 'geek', and for that I apologize.
Definitely not true in any way. I can see how you can see it that way, but from my perspective, Scumbag Stacy and sexist jokes along those lines are usually at the top of most comment sections in a story about women.
A few years ago I tried a social experiment. I was playing Street Fighter 4 online on PS3, and I changed my username to something innocuous but clearly female- I legitimately don't remember what the name was. It wasn't anything suggestive or sexual, just had the word 'lady' or 'girl' in the title somewhere.
Played online as Chun-Li in random matches for about 2 hours. Didn't use a mic or anything, just fought strangers for fun. I won some, I lost some.
Turned off the machine when I was done, and the next day when I checked my messages on PSN I had no less than 7 profane and harassing messages from strangers I'd played against. It was illuminating and depressing.
Equality can't be attained without working together, and that's not men telling women what to do, it's a conversation about how things can be equal for everyone.
I'm a feminist if you were to talk with me for a while, but I'm much more complex than that and don't wish to be pigeon-holed by those who like to make snap judgments about labels.
You realize you're not allotted one singular label, right? You can be both. In fact, being both clarifies your position much better. The attitude you're taking perpetuates the very "opposing team" idea that you dislike.
I don't understand people who think "There's no problem with racism/sexism/etc. in video games, and to prove it we'll act like ass sucking shit fiends and lash out at anybody with a differing opinion".
Frankly I do think it's not a problem of racism and sexism in video games. It's a problem of perfectly fine games being played by fucktards. But fucktards are everywhere and games don't create them.
I think it's not about gaming culture, it's about culture in general. If anything it's more related to internet "culture" than to gaming one. You didn't hear these horror stories in the '90 and early 2000: the internet and the widening of the gaming market have brought more assholes and dumbfucks near the "microphone" to vent their insecurities and frustrations towards innocent people.
The disempowered (or those who feel they're disempowered) are easily motivated to lash out socially in any way they can. That applies to the monsters behind the threats to Sarkeesian's life just as much as it does the overly-aggressive segments of the Feminist movement.
Subsequent context: One of those examples is rightfully illegal, and the other is merely annoying. Think about that before they're equated in anyone's mind.
I agree with your overall point, but is it wrong to equate them in the sense that they both deserve to be ignored or weeded out? Being an asshole who can't engage in a healthy, reasonable discussion without making threats or lashing out invariably makes the situation even worse than it already is. Setting an example is definitely important here.
Let me start by saying it is wrong to treat people like this because you don't agree with them. I read some of the sick stuff people say to her(because she tweets that stuff out but not counter arguments) and even though I think she is ignorant she still does not deserve this treatment. That being said do we know how it got "worse"? How do we know this is not just a publicity stunt? I just do not see how the harassment could get any worse.
Let me start by saying it is wrong to treat people like this because you don't agree with them. I read some of the sick stuff people say to her(because she tweets that stuff out but not counter arguments) and even though I think she is ignorant she still does not deserve this treatment. That being said do we know how it got "worse"? How do we know this is not just a publicity stunt? I just do not see how the harassment could get any worse.
I'm not saying they are on the same level and I'm not one of those "what about men?" guys who wants to bury the subject. I played WoW with my girlfriend, we were in the same guild and I can assure you I know how it goes...Women playing online is just another subject and I don't want to mix everything up.
Let me start by saying it is wrong to treat people like this because you don't agree with them. I read some of the sick stuff people say to her(because she tweets that stuff out but not counter arguments) and even though I think she is ignorant she still does not deserve this treatment. That being said do we know how it got "worse"? How do we know this is not just a publicity stunt? I just do not see how the harassment could get any worse.
Let me start by saying it is wrong to treat people like this because you don't agree with them. I read some of the sick stuff people say to her(because she tweets that stuff out but not counter arguments) and even though I think she is ignorant she still does not deserve this treatment. That being said do we know how it got "worse"? How do we know this is not just a publicity stunt? I just do not see how the harassment could get any worse.
Jesus christ, she was threatened with the location of her house and knowledge of someone having access to her information regarding her friends and family.
the fact that you can even imagine a scenario in which this is done for attention is just...fucked.
