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[Krejlooc]

He's not appealing to the type of gamer who loved the SSE mode from brawl.

 

[JoeInky]

You are so dense.

It's not as if I was attacking him (Larry) or anything but how he worded the article he seems to have missed a lot of or skipped over what defined smash 64 and a lot of what defined Brawl by saying the game is a "mix of" Brawl and 64.

Your post was worse because you completely ignored the things that I actually said just to pick up on something that wasn't the main point of my post, should we dismiss his article because he says the majority of his impressions come from watching the game and because it was mostly 4 player ffa with items, which isn't really a conducive environment to figuring out how the mechanics mesh?

Smash 4 being mostly Brawl but with increased throw knockback and dash mechanics that were similar to both 64 and Melee doesn't make the game a "mix of Brawl and 64", because those aren't all the things that defined 64, nor are they even the main things.

64 was mainly defined by these things: Has the highest amount of hit stun in the series, has the worst defensive options in the series, Lacks DI and SDI, High Throw Knockback, Ability to completely cancel all landing lag through a button press (Z-Cancelling) and was full of 0-to-death combos due to high hitstun, no airdodge and complete animation cancelling.

Meanwhile, Smash 4 has hit stun equivalent to Brawl and Melee (Brawl did actually have hitstun but they fucked it up slightly by letting you air dodge to cancel it after 12 frames, making hitstun practically non-existent in high level play), has the best defensive options in the series, Has SDI and DI (though reduced in effectiveness somewhat since Melee/Brawl), High Throw knockback, no ability to cancel landing lag at all and very little actual combos due to a mix of a spammable air dodge and high endlag on a lot of moves.

To me, this doesn't point to "a mixture of Brawl and 64", it points to Brawl with a few changes but not enough to call it a mix of any 2 games in the series.


The only reason I said I didn't fully trust what he said, was because the SDCC grand finals weren't exactly indicative of what the game will turn out like. You can play that offensively in Brawl as well, but it won't actually work in a proper tournament where people are abusing the superior defensive options, that's what every Brawl tournament ends up like. Smash 4 has that same problem with defense being much better than offense so surely you can see why I don't exactly take the SDCC grand finals to be as much a representation of the game as the Invitational grand finals were?

 

[KirbyKid]

Hey everyone. I'm still reading through this thread. I see a lot of passionate voices here. If you have the time I would appreciate it if you filled out this Smash survey.

I'm working on a Smash project and could use your voices represented.

Thanks.

 

[JKBii]

Same applies to Brawl and 64.

The thing is, you don't need to use any advanced moves to play the game. In fact, most players will never even discover that these advanced moves exist, and that does nothing to hamper their enjoyment of the game. Also you realize Brawl has a similar skill gap as well, right? A serious Brawl player will outclass a standard Brawl player no different than a serious Melee player will to a standard Melee player.

Good players beat bad players. Practice makes you better. This is the way the world works.

I don't know about Brawl or 64, but I do think the skill gap in Melee is totally unexpected from players. If I've unlocked everything in Melee, essentially putting in 200+ hours, I feel like I've "mastered" the game. To then go out in the wild and be completely outclassed is unexpected.

I think the problem is the lack of online gaming in Melee. If I played people online as I was putting in those 200+ hours, I would have known exactly where I ranked worldwide. With Melee, I only knew who was the best among my similarly skilled group of friends. Then there was this amorphous cabal of people in the competitive scene who would outclass us.

I would venture to say a Melee-like SSB with online would not have a huge gap between casual and competitive players.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Haven't you heard, a large reason why people like Melee so much is because they like "pressing buttons" as Wobbles likes to say. Tech-skill, tech-skill, tech_skill.

I remember reading something to that effect but wasn't clear on who it was directed to. I was under the assumption that it was aimed at beginners newly introduced to competition who try to impress rather than learn how to play with solid fundamentals. Kinda like how you have people who focus on combos in 2D fighters before they even know how to use normals. That's why I thought that Sakurai here would rather take the mindset of experienced players into account when considering the competitive approach to the game.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

I remember reading something to that effect but wasn't clear on who it was directed to. I was under the assumption that it was aimed at beginners newly introduced to competition who try to impress rather than learn how to play with solid fundamentals. Kinda like how you have people who focus on combos in 2D fighters before they even know how to use normals. That's why I thought that Sakurai here would rather take the mindset of experienced players into account when considering the competitive approach to the game.

I wouldn't say the term points to the mutual exclusivity of fundamentals and tech-skill. There are a lot of high and low level players that the term could be applied to. Its just as simple as it sounds, "hitting buttons". It takes a number of inputs to make Melee go at a tourney level. And it take a whole lot more to be called a "technical" player.

 

[Oblivion]

Hey everyone. I'm still reading through this thread. I see a lot of passionate voices here. If you have the time I would appreciate it if you filled out this Smash survey.

I'm working on a Smash project and could use your voices represented.

Thanks.

Is that supposed to be a Project M, but for SSB4?

 

[Jigolo]

Sounds like a complicated way to say not as fast as melee and not as slow as brawl. Loved both games so this is perfect.

 

[Oblivion]

Sounds like a complicated way to say not as fast as melee and not as slow as brawl. Loved both games so this is perfect.

Not to belabor the point, but this needs to be stated otherwise people are gonna get the wrong idea. Judging by Sakurai's comments, one who has never played the game would assume it's sort of like a halfway point between Melee and Brawl. It's not. It's faster than Brawl, but not by much.

It's like saying Utah is between California and New York. Yes, it's true, but Utah is far closer to Cali than New York.

 

[Kyzer]

Um. He calls brawl a tame game and says they don't have to appeal to new gamers as much with this title, OP.

 

[PezDispenser]

Advanced smash moves like wave-dashing and chain throwing require a lot of practice. I've played a couple thousand non-advanced memes matches and I would be completely outclassed in a match with anyone who put learned those techniques. The skill gap is even worse than in a traditional fighting game because those at least show you all the moves so you can slowly add new ones to your skillset. In Melee, advanced moves are not explicitly taught by the game at all.

yeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAGHK

 

[Narroo]

I don't understand why Sakurai can't understand that making the game more competitive doesn't scare casuals away. If they really are casuals, they don't know the difference, and the odds of a casual ever seeing high-level competitive play are extremely low.

At the very least, Smash 4 looks like it will do a much better job of "striking a balance" than Brawl.

Have you played a game like Blazblue? You have to sit down and study comes characters for a few hours just to be able to move around and deal damage properly. Playing a true, tournament level fighting game is a time consuming hobby in of itself. Not everyone has that much time to dedicate to being able to just play a game. The fun of smash is that you can jump right in.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

I'm more interested in the fact that they practically "made all players from scratch," yet Ganondorf is still a mo' suckin' clone..

What the baby jesus.

 

[Tomohawk]

I get the sense when Sakurai talks about complicated controls, he's talking about things that make you press more buttons per minute like wave dashing and l-canceling. Personally if he includes movement options that replace the need to wave dash, or L-cancel then i'm fine with it. However his words give me the sense he may catering too much to casual players.

 

[superbank]

Have you played a game like Blazblue? You have to sit down and study comes characters for a few hours just to be able to move around and deal damage properly. Playing a true, tournament level fighting game is a time consuming hobby in of itself. Not everyone has that much time to dedicate to being able to just play a game. The fun of smash is that you can jump right in.

You can jump right into a smash game like Melee... but also go deeper into the mechanics, to the point where it's a tournament level fighting game. I could fire up ssbm right now and have fun playing it casually like I always have, yet at the same time there are players going to tournaments playing at such extreme levels. Melee is the evidence of this duality, over-complicated "true" fighters are irrelevant in this discussion.

I get the sense when Sakurai talks about complicated controls, he's talking about things that make you press more buttons per minute like wave dashing and l-canceling. Personally if he includes movement options that replace the need to wave dash, or L-cancel then i'm fine with it. However his words give me the sense he may catering too much to casual players.

They could do it. To replace L-canceling, characters could just react quicker after landing like others have said. Simple. A wavedash could be performed like a spot-dodge. Down + shield would do a spot dodge and any downward diagonal would perform a wavedash (instead of jump -> shield + diagonal). Though I don't think wavedash is necessary.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

Already has a moveset. Will never change.

That's completely arbitrary. He could change it if he cared to. He knows it, and we know it. There's no reason to just be okay with it.

 

[Next]

.

Dude, the game isn't even out yet. You're making predictions about high level play that you have no way of accurately make. Stop trying to pass your bullshit as if it were fact.

 

[Ragingnight]

Advanced smash moves like wave-dashing and chain throwing require a lot of practice. I've played a couple thousand non-advanced memes matches and I would be completely outclassed in a match with anyone who put learned those techniques. The skill gap is even worse than in a traditional fighting game because those at least show you all the moves so you can slowly add new ones to your skillset. In Melee, advanced moves are not explicitly taught by the game at all.

Wrong

MvC3 doesn't teach you wave dashing, plink dashing, or option selects. All of them are important

SF4 doesn't teach you plinking or option selects.

MK9 didn't teach you dash-canceling

 

[Aaronrules380]

One thing I've never gotten: Why do people keep insisting Melee was so balanced, when competitive play excludes like half if not more of the characters? I'm not saying Brawl is better in that regard, just curious as to how Melee can be the holy grail of smash balance that people proclaim it as when most of the cast is hopelessly outclassed?

 

[superbank]

That's completely arbitrary. He could change it if he cared to. He knows it, and we know it. There's no reason to just be okay with it.

This has bothered me since Melee. Ganon/Ganondorf deserves a unique moveset that represents the character better. Same for Young Link/Toon Link, though maybe with custom move sets we'll get more variety.

One thing I've never gotten: Why do people keep insisting Melee was so balanced, when competitive play excludes like half if not more of the characters? I'm not saying Brawl is better in that regard, just curious as to how Melee can be the holy grail of smash balance that people proclaim it as when most of the cast is hopelessly outclassed?

Are there people talking about character balance? Maybe I missed it, the discussions in this thread seem to be about balance between casual and competitive play.

 

[Oblivion]

Also, too. It's totally weird how Sakurai seems to be wanting to do his best not to accommodate tournament players, yet held an actual tournament for SSB4. Makes no sense.

 

[GameGuru59]

Wrong

MvC3 doesn't teach you wave dashing, plink dashing, or option selects. All of them are important

SF4 doesn't teach you plinking or option selects.

MK9 didn't teach you dash-canceling

Is that a good thing though? Maybe what Sakurai wants is for all of the techniques in the game to be immediately obvious to all players.

 

[JKBii]

Wrong

MvC3 doesn't teach you wave dashing, plink dashing, or option selects. All of them are important

SF4 doesn't teach you plinking or option selects.

MK9 didn't teach you dash-canceling

I guess I just don't know enough about fighting games. I also don't think most casual players will balk at having a serious advanced meta-game. Pokemon has an even bigger skill gap between pros and casuals and no one seems to care.

On the other hand, I do think the complex set of moves taught in-game in traditional fighting games gives players the understanding of a long path from casual to pro with a lot of intermediary steps. That indication is not there in SSBM.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This has bothered me since Melee. Ganon/Ganondorf deserves a unique moveset that represents the character better. Same for Young Link/Toon Link, though maybe with custom move sets we'll get more variety.

I'm not exuding much optimism for Ganondorf. Even with specials his standard attacks will likely be the same. Ergo slow and full of attacks of opportunity.

 

[GayForMaster]

"Appealing all gamers..."

I still want to believe that For Glory mode is essentially a melee-like mode, naturally on that competitive level.

 

[copelandmaster]

He's probably referring to L-Cancelling when he talks about high barrier of entry.

Really? I guess if you use the slider + A button (that shit is hard). The thing is, you can do it with the Z button a lot of the time without even meaning it. Before it became an obvious feature in Project M, I was probably pulling it off for years as a kid without even realizing it.

And yet, since Brawl, Sakurai sits content with using the Z button for that stupid infinite air-dodge bullshit, even with 2 other buttons doing the same damn thing.

 

[Tookay]

Also, too. It's totally weird how Sakurai seems to be wanting to do his best not to accommodate tournament players, yet held an actual tournament for SSB4. Makes no sense.

To be fair, I don't think these tournaments are really coming down from Sakurai. They seem more like an NOA thing.

 

[Kimosabae]

Also, too. It's totally weird how Sakurai seems to be wanting to do his best not to accommodate tournament players, yet held an actual tournament for SSB4. Makes no sense.

You're confused about a corporation's keen capacity to shamelessly capitalize on a naive subculture desperate for acceptance and appropriation?

 

[Deckard Cain]

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

Developers need to write essays more often

 

[Greenzxy]

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

 

[BakedYams]

Sounds good to me. Sakurai knows what he's doing. I trust his judgement about how to make a great Smash game more than tournament players or gaffers or anyone else. From all the gameplay tournaments Nintendo has hosted so far, Smash 4 looks great in motion.

That's the reason why Project M was made my friend. If you look at 1v1, the game is pretty slow, faster than brawl, but not as exciting. I feel with Melee he worked on 1v1's first then grew from it to make 4 player battle fiesta but with Smash 4, it seems he concentrated it in a reverse order, 4 player battle to 1v1 and just ignored the fact that 1v1 is pretty damn slow compared to melee.

One thing I've never gotten: Why do people keep insisting Melee was so balanced, when competitive play excludes like half if not more of the characters? I'm not saying Brawl is better in that regard, just curious as to how Melee can be the holy grail of smash balance that people proclaim it as when most of the cast is hopelessly outclassed?

It was (and still is) fun. That's the holy grail for game design and what many developers set out to do but fail. Even if 2/3 of the cast is useless, as long as the game is playable with 1/3 of the cast, its still viable. Hell I remember play SF2 with the small character roster (even though it was one of the first in its kind) and it was fun.

 

[johnsavage]

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

Fuck him for wanting to make something fun amirite?

 

[watershed]

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

I think this post accurately represents everything wrong with the internet.

 

[fader]

He's got a point.... The reason why fighting games are so niche now and days is because of their difficulty. Soo many people has heard and played Street Fighter but dropped it and it's always the same excuse. "It's too hard"
I can understand his decision for not going full on hardcore audience only smash bros and I do appreciate him for at least considering the hardcore audience.

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

so, taking your gimmick out of fgc weekly eh?

 

[Deckard Cain]

Fuck him for wanting to make something fun amirite?

Cause as everyone knows Melee wasn't fun right?

Seriously where do you people get off think Sakurai isn't incompetent? Listen to how he talks about his bad video games. Brawl was about as fun as playing with a stick in mud. Smash 4 is just as bad but "Wait & see" even though there hasn't been an updated build since E3.

Sakurai claims he balanced Melee & Brawl & believes they are both a success. Anyone with half a brain could have seen MetaKnight coming(he's probably going to be great again given the game mechanics).l, yet he claims it's all part of his great balance plan.

Look how many useless moves exist in Smash too. Any competent developer when they give characters moves they have a specific uses for those moves. Smash? Fuck it! We gave this character this move just cause, it sucks, no one will ever get hit by it, it doesn't have a purpose it's just in the game.

Sakurai is a garbage developer & the only reason anyone plays Smash is cause it's a fanboy dream match game. If this game was made with non-nintendo characters no one would even look twice at it, gameplay wise Brawl & Smash 4 are utter garbage. They aren't fun to play & they don't feel good when you play them. They are shallow & boring.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Sakurai is a garbage developer & the only reason anyone plays Smash is cause it's a fanboy dream match game. If this game was made with non-nintendo characters no one would even look twice at it, gameplay wise Brawl & Smash 4 are utter garbage. They aren't fun to play & they don't feel good when you play them. They are shallow & boring.

Developer intent baby

 

[mbpm1]

Sakurai is a delusional idiot. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Smash players only get a new game every console generation, so when this turd drops, it's back to melee for another console cycle.

And before people jump on me, Yes I have got my fair share of time with the game. Yes it's actually worse than Brawl, no this will not be fixed because your boy Sakurai is too dumb to realise his game is trash.

Please understand.

 

[Clairvoyance]

Cause as everyone knows Melee wasn't fun right?

Seriously where do you people get off think Sakurai isn't incompetent? Listen to how he talks about his bad video games. Brawl was about as fun as playing with a stick in mud. Smash 4 is just as bad but "Wait & see" even though there hasn't been an updated build since E3.

Sakurai claims he balanced Melee & Brawl & believes they are both a success. Anyone with half a brain could have seen MetaKnight coming(he's probably going to be great again given the game mechanics).l, yet he claims it's all part of his great balance plan.

Look how many useless moves exist in Smash too. Any competent developer when they give characters moves they have a specific uses for those moves. Smash? Fuck it! We gave this character this move just cause, it sucks, no one will ever get hit by it, it doesn't have a purpose it's just in the game.

Sakurai is a garbage developer & the only reason anyone plays Smash is cause it's a fanboy dream match game. If this game was made with non-nintendo characters no one would even look twice at it, gameplay wise Brawl & Smash 4 are utter garbage. They aren't fun to play & they don't feel good when you play them. They are shallow & boring.

Sakurai is a legend at rustling jimmies.

 

[Redrop]

Meh, it feels as if Sakurai is projecting his own experience with Melee onto his perceived "casual" base, unless of course this perception of Melee being "too hard" actually existed somewhere in the world. Because it certainly didn't exist in the USA.

Oh well, it's probably good news that he's acknowledging Brawl lacking "excitement."

 

[Monocle]

WTF Sakurai. All of my friends who played Melee were casual gamers and they loved it. No problems whatsoever with the pace and controls. I'm barely more than a casual player myself, but I do have a lot of experience with fighting and action games, so I can say with some confidence that Sakurai is misguided here. Melee's advanced techniques are not a barrier to entry for novice players because novices are unaware of their existence. The supposedly difficult execution of these techniques that, again, novices will never encounter, is no more demanding than what you deal with in lower level competitive play in traditional fighting games. (Breaking throws on reaction in Tekken is harder than almost anything in Melee, for example.)

The reason Melee feels so good to play is that it's fast and the controls are perfectly responsive. Sakurai's efforts to make the Smash series casual friendly have done two things: gutted the competitive scene with no benefit to casual players, and replaced slick satisfying controls that benefited everyone with clunky laggy nonsense that brings down the entire experience. (What is tripping about anyway, if not slapping down players who know what they're doing so that they can be roflstomped by complete novices?)

Sakurai should consider letting other people take the helm, since he's unable or unwilling to recognize how Melee transcended his modest ambitions to make an accessible party brawler. He stumbled on a brilliant formula for a unique fighting game that really did appeal to players of all skill levels, and what did he do? Dedicate himself to dumbing it down. Pure incompetence.

 

[fader]

Cause as everyone knows Melee wasn't fun right?

Seriously where do you people get off think Sakurai isn't incompetent? Listen to how he talks about his bad video games. Brawl was about as fun as playing with a stick in mud. Smash 4 is just as bad but "Wait & see" even though there hasn't been an updated build since E3.

Sakurai claims he balanced Melee & Brawl & believes they are both a success. Anyone with half a brain could have seen MetaKnight coming(he's probably going to be great again given the game mechanics).l, yet he claims it's all part of his great balance plan.

Look how many useless moves exist in Smash too. Any competent developer when they give characters moves they have a specific uses for those moves. Smash? Fuck it! We gave this character this move just cause, it sucks, no one will ever get hit by it, it doesn't have a purpose it's just in the game.

Sakurai is a garbage developer & the only reason anyone plays Smash is cause it's a fanboy dream match game. If this game was made with non-nintendo characters no one would even look twice at it, gameplay wise Brawl & Smash 4 are utter garbage. They aren't fun to play & they don't feel good when you play them. They are shallow & boring.

you gotta realize that Sakurai created Melee and Brawl without hardcore competitive side in mind. Fox, and Meta Knight are insanely overpowered in the competitive side. But on the couch casual side they are not. So in that regard Sakurai considers the games balanced.

 

[K.Sabot]

you gotta realize that Sakurai created Melee and Brawl without hardcore competitive side in mind. Fox, and Meta Knight are insanely overpowered in the competitive side. But on the couch casual side they are not. So in that regard Sakurai considers the games balanced.

I'll contest Meta Knight not being op in casual.

All his OP moves are his specials, and casuals love to do specials more than anything else.

Edit: certainly not all of his op moves, but his more prominent OP moves.

 

[johnsavage]

Cause as everyone knows Melee wasn't fun right?

Seriously where do you people get off think Sakurai isn't incompetent? Listen to how he talks about his bad video games. Brawl was about as fun as playing with a stick in mud. Smash 4 is just as bad but "Wait & see" even though there hasn't been an updated build since E3.

Sakurai claims he balanced Melee & Brawl & believes they are both a success. Anyone with half a brain could have seen MetaKnight coming(he's probably going to be great again given the game mechanics).l, yet he claims it's all part of his great balance plan.

Look how many useless moves exist in Smash too. Any competent developer when they give characters moves they have a specific uses for those moves. Smash? Fuck it! We gave this character this move just cause, it sucks, no one will ever get hit by it, it doesn't have a purpose it's just in the game.

Sakurai is a garbage developer & the only reason anyone plays Smash is cause it's a fanboy dream match game. If this game was made with non-nintendo characters no one would even look twice at it, gameplay wise Brawl & Smash 4 are utter garbage. They aren't fun to play & they don't feel good when you play them. They are shallow & boring.

Who said Melee wasn't fun?

Where do you get off shitting on people that liked Smash 64 and/or Brawl. I like Melee the most, but that doesn't mean I don't like the other two. People that love Melee seem to shit on the other games and people that like the other games. Sakurai isn't snatching your copies of Melee from your cold dead hands, so I can't see why you're making such a big deal over this. If you don't want to play the other games then fine don't. Play Melee forever, it's not going anywhere, but don't ruin it for the people that like something different and don't shit on their opinion if, god forbid, they enjoy a non Melee version of smash brothers.

 

[fader]

I'll contest Meta Knight not being op in casual.

All his OP moves are his specials, and casuals love to do specials more than anything else.

yea but are they doing it with footsies, or setups in mind? What's different than a Pikachu spamming thunder? or a Captain Falcon spamming falcon punch?
In the casual realm anything in a fighting game is op because the common fighting game knowledge the hardcore scene uses are completely alien to casuals.

 

[Tomohawk]

I wish Sakurai would look at something like league of legends, and see that you don't need to dumb down your game to make a lot of people play it. He seems to be be trying to cast a wide a net as possible, when that may not necessarily be the most effective now that the casual audience has moved on.

 

[Deckard Cain]

you gotta realize that Sakurai created Melee and Brawl without hardcore competitive side in mind. Fox, and Meta Knight are insanely overpowered in the competitive side. But on the couch casual side they are not. So in that regard Sakurai considers the games balanced.

You can make that really shitty excuse for every fighting game. Oh Storm & Sentinel aren't that good if you're just fucking around with friends in MVC2 so the balance is a success. Here's a tip, IF YOU BALANCE YOUR GAME PROPERLY, it's balanced at high level & low level. Why do you think execution is such a huge part of fighting games? It helps create that balance that spreads between levels of play.

Who said Melee wasn't fun?

Where do you get off shitting on people that liked Smash 64 and/or Brawl. I like Melee the most, but that doesn't mean I don't like the other two. People that love Melee seem to shit on the other games and people that like the other games. Sakurai isn't snatching your copies of Melee from your cold dead hands, so I can't see why you're making such a big deal over this. If you don't want to play the other games then fine don't. Play Melee forever, it's not going anywhere, but don't ruin it for the people that like something different and don't shit on their opinion if, god forbid, they enjoy a non Melee version of smash brothers.

Something different? What's different on a casual level? Characters pretty much have the exact same moves & movelists since their introduction to the series. It's the exact same crap except worse. You know what I want a GOOD GAME, not a bad game that has Nintendo characters in it. I want to play DuckHunt & beat the crap out of you then taunt with his laugh in a GOOD GAME. Where I can outplay my opponents & have fun doing it without feeling like my character has a ball & chain attatched to his leg.

And yes Brawl sucks. You can like it all you want but it's top to bottom garbage. It's a crap fighting game, a crap platformer, & a crap mini-game/party game all rolled into one bad package.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Fuck him for wanting to make something fun amirite?

Except that if this follows Brawl it won't be fun. Really, we tried giving Brawl a chance but it was just so boring.

yea but are they doing it with footsies, or setups in mind? What's different than a Pikachu spamming thunder? or a Captain Falcon spamming falcon punch?
In the casual realm anything in a fighting game is op because the common fighting game knowledge the hardcore scene uses are completely alien to casuals.

Meta Knight breaks the game at casual level, you don't have to be a genius to see just how spammable his moves are. When they were playing it I could see my lil' bro and his Friends abusing his Tornado all the time and no one can do anything to stop it.

 

[Kimosabae]

The speed was never even an issue before Sakurai addressed it with Brawl. His pitiful tinkering is part of what's caused the dissonance experienced by Brawl players playing Melee.

People only become conscious of a game's speed if they have some point of comparison.

I agree with Deckard, Sakurai is a fucking idiot. I'm sorry. Not for calling Sakurai names but for having to agree with Deck.

Sakurai should consider letting other people take the helm, since he's unable or unwilling to recognize how Melee transcended his modest ambitions to make an accessible party brawler. He stumbled on a brilliant formula for a unique fighting game that really did appeal to players of all skill levels, and what did he do? Dedicate himself to dumbing it down. Pure incompetence.

 

[ReiGun]

WTF Sakurai. All of my friends who played Melee were casual gamers and they loved it. No problems whatsoever with the pace and controls. I'm barely more than a casual player myself, but I do have a lot of experience with fighting and actions games, so I can say with some confidence that Sakurai is misguided here. Melee's advanced techniques are not a barrier to entry for novice players because novices are unaware of their existence. The supposedly difficult execution of these techniques that, again, novices will never encounter, are no more demanding than what you deal with in lower level competitive play in traditional fighting games. (Breaking throws on reaction in Tekken is harder than almost anything in Melee, for example.)

The reason Melee feels so good to play is that it's fast and the controls are perfectly responsive. Sakurai's efforts to make the Smash series casual friendly have done two things: gutted the competitive scene with no benefit to casual players, and replaced slick satisfying controls that benefited everyone with clunky laggy nonsense that brings down the entire experience. (What is tripping about anyway, if not slapping down players who know what they're doing so that they can be roflstomped by complete novices?)

Sakurai should consider letting other people take the helm, since he's unable or unwilling to recognize how Melee transcended his modest ambitions to make an accessible party brawler. He stumbled on a brilliant formula for a unique fighting game that really did appeal to players of all skill levels, and what did he do? Dedicate himself to dumbing it down. Pure incompetence.

The bolded is so key here. What's weird is not only is Sakurai crafting this revisionist history where Melee was somehow super hard for casual players to follow due the existence of advanced techs most of them didn't even know existed and never bothered with if they did know, but many people are buying into it even though we all really ought to know better.

And at the end of the day, people who truly understand competitive Smash and game design are mostly fine with advanced techniques like wavedashing being taken away. They just want Sakurai to stop actively working against their style of play.

The man is trying to provide and answer to a question no one asked but him.