Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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I've posted more than once in this thread, and could you explain the latter part of your post please?

I just mean people that are on the extreme fringe of feminism often subscribe to utopian fantasy. Maybe this sounds like overly dramatic language, but it's not a new theory, and this is how it's been worded in academia for a while now.

It's a part of the human psyche. Throughout history, people rallying to a cause often can get caught up in that fantasy. And then they can get convinced that the only thing standing in the way of that fantasy, are human obstacles. And then those obstacles are demonized with propaganda to turn them into an inhuman caricature. And that's how you justify hate against human obstacles in hyper-ideological movements.

If you think throughout history, the examples of this are all over the place. Leigh Alexander literally says she has an army in her article, which literally is openly stating she's coordinating others for attack. Why use the language of militarism at all? One of the other headlines is, "Gamers are dead and the women who killed them." Why use terminology like "dead," or "kill?"

These are very ideological people, falling prey to an all-too-human instinct. The instinct to believe that we can reach utopia if we only dehumanize and destroy human obstacles. And this is their latest big offensive.

This isn't even the first attempt by these people to dehumanize and bully us. They literally can't stop themselves.

First it's Fedoras, complete with lots of pictures of ugly fat white men to hate.
Then it's Anime Avatars.
Now it's "Gamers."

There is literally a campaign on twitter right now where you make up a 4 word bigoted insult to dehumanize gamers, and lots of people in that circle are doing that for fun.
 
There was a Star Wars EU writer who compared her detractors to the Taliban. I don't need to tell you that Star Wars writers are not conspiring to destroy the Star Wars fandom.
 
There was a Star Wars EU writer who compared her detractors to the Taliban. I don't need to tell you that Star Wars writers are not conspiring to destroy the Star Wars fandom.

I said "kill" in quotes (since it's actually in the headline of one of the articles) followed by, "their influence." Check the quote of mine that you responded to. You misread it on purpose to make it sound stupid.
 
Consumer outrage over unethical journalisms leads to positive changes to prevent unethical journalism, but those changes are not indicative of any prior unethical journalism? And you're going to ignore the fact Patricia Hernandez was exposed for doing what Nathan Grayson was accused of doing?

There is evidence out there, in vast quantities, that either outright prove or strongly suggest widespread corruption, nepotism and cronyism, but you would rather have me believe that none of that is true, that the games journalism industry is not at all corrupt, and that this latest scandal that has led to #GamerGate is baseless and fruitless, despite the mounting evidence that suggests otherwise? No. You are being intellectually dishonest and wilfully ignorant of the facts.

This latest 'scandal'? Yes, I do 100% believe it to be fruitless. People have latched onto a story where nothing inappropriate actually happened, but they think that just because they're consumers that they're privy to every personal detail about the personal lives of the people who produce content for them. If Nathan Grayson had indeed written a positive review of Depression Quest after sleeping with Zoe Quinn, I'd be up in arms with the rest of the people.

A group of people are rallying around the wrong thing right no and making themselves look foolish in the process. Remember the Kane & LynchGamespot debacle? That was something to get angry about. Remember the Watch Dogs free-Nexus 7 situation (that came to light because journalists told us about it and refused the gifts)? That's something to use as a starting-point. The past fortnight has done nothing to actually infringe on my viewpoint of gaming journalism and I think that sites have been acting entirely properly in the case of Zoe Quinn and business as usual in bandwagon-jumping on a hot topic over the wider implications of the 'Gamer' label.

Do they talk to each other? Of course they bloody do, the same way I talk to people at my workplaces from different departments or other contractors who come in/I go to with similar roles. Is it really that far-fetched that someone casually brought up an idea of 'Is the 'Gamer' label bad" and a bunch of people went with it because they thought it would be a decent opinion post/talking-point, not because it was a concerted effort to demean the gaming community?

GamerGate has simply come up at the wrong time, now spurred by a misconstrued article and propagated by people who are just at this certain moment in time, wrong. The fact that it's also being co-opted by anti-equality types is what's causing a large part of the backlash, especially when people who actually have a genuine concern are somehow turning a blind eye to the troublemakers in their own ranks.
 
I said "kill" in quotes (since it's actually in the headline of one of the articles) followed by, "their influence." Check the quote of mine that you responded to. You misread it on purpose to make it sound stupid.
Again, this is stupid. How do you suggest games journalists conspire to kill consumer influence outside the influence of the developers who pay their bills? Do you think they have control over the games being made? Do you think they won't continue to mindlessly support the triple-A schlock specifically called out in Tropes vs Women with 9 out of 10 reviews?

You are unable to actually provide a decent motive for people acting outside their obvious economic interests here beyond "they're crazy."
 
Nobody in these articles has bullied anyone. They've put forward various opinions and it's up to us whether we agree with them or not. There's no gun being held to our head, they're not threatening to block us from reading the websites they work for if we don't agree with them.

Right, I mean, Who believes a pervasive opinion/narrative from media has an effect on culture? Practically no one!

(Sorry, it's just such a strange circle of conversation I couldn't bear to not throw at least one silly word into the ring)
 
Leigh's tone of basically caricaturing anyone who doesn't fit her view, plus her subsequent tweets calling off anyone who disagree "gross", "nerd", plus other people who wrote for polygon who also went on quite the mean spree, so far as to comparing basically the #gamergate people as worse than #ISIS. The enormitiy of that last statement alone is aggravating

I've lost a metric ton of respect for the gaming media over these last couple of weeks. The wagon circling, vitriol spitting, name calling, lazy generalizations, and overall holier than thou attitude displayed by so many of these individuals has been disappointing.

That said, loosely-organized hashtag campaigns and poor behavior within these campaigns won't change a damned thing. I've seen a variety of topics debated within these campaigns, with zero focus and even less of a lasting effect-- save for The Escapist, whose co-founder actually responded.

Stop visiting the sites these writers work for and rewarding them with web traffic. Eliminate these people from your social media feeds. These two steps-- along with just playing the games you want to play-- will help in the long run by cutting down the excess noise and negativity while getting back to basics.

EDIT:


She must be a student of the Hideki Kamiya School of Social Media. Valedictorian material right here.
 
Again, this is stupid. How do you suggest games journalists conspire to kill consumer influence outside the influence of the developers who pay their bills? Do you think they have control over the games being made? Do you think they won't continue to mindlessly support the triple-A schlock specifically called out in Tropes vs Women with 9 out of 10 reviews?

I never said their goal was realistic. That's why it's called "utopia." The word originates from Greek language, meaning "no-place."

What is real though is the bullying and hate they are promoting in the meantime.
 
I never said their goal was realistic. That's why it's called "utopia." The word originates from Greek language, meaning "no-place."

What is real though is the bullying and hate they are promoting in the meantime.
How is Leigh Alexander convincing people to try and reach this utopia while ignoring their own source of income? Is she just a really charismatic lunatic? I certainly didn't see much charisma in her article.
 
i don't know how you can read comments from leigh saying "i am louder and i have an army", that "gamers as a collective" are dead, and pushing an idea that some non-existent audience that is just waiting at the helm for gaming developers to adopt a all genders, all inclusive medium and NOT see it as notions of some grandeur wish.

I hate to try and drive away the topic at hand, but I'd argue that Leigh Alexander is not indicative of the general state of games journalism, at least not deliberately. She has a greater air of superiority around her, some of it due to the fact that she's been in the scene for a long time, far longer than the names that got big two years ago when social justice in the games press got really big, and some of it is just enforced. In any case, she has less shame than anyone else involved, which is probably why she says all this like she has nothing to lose.

That sounds really dumb reading it back to myself, but how else has she been able to leak a responder's email address, tell her supporters that she's left the address in and to "have a good weekend" and not get fired for lack of etiquette whereas any other journalist or reporter would have trouble finding work again after a stunt like that?

Yes, I am mad. I'm getting my degree next Sunday. Shit like this gets under my skin, which is why I also get very mad at everyone throwing claims of corruption and collusion around like nothing without understanding the ramifications of such.
 
How is Leigh Alexander convincing people to try and reach this utopia while ignoring their own source of income? Is she just a really charismatic lunatic? I certainly didn't see much charisma in her article.

I honestly would love an answer to that too.
 
Right, I mean, Who believes a pervasive opinion/narrative from media has an effect on culture? Practically no one!

(Sorry, it's just such a strange circle of conversation I couldn't bear to not throw at least one silly word into the ring)

I genuinely wish a pervasive equality 'agenda' was shaping reader's thoughts for the better. The stream of bile-filled comments that follow any sort of equality-based article, either on a site itself or on other outlets shows that it's not the case. There seems to be a notion that "SJW journalists" are trying to brainwash their reader-base. Brainwashing can't really be said to be in effect if you think it's going on. ;)
 
Stop visiting the sites these writers work for and rewarding them with web traffic. Eliminate these people from your social media feeds. These two steps-- along with just playing the games you want to play-- will help in the long run by cutting down the excess noise and negativity while getting back to basics.

Those who seem to want to "just play games" and see the push for equality as detrimental for games need to realise that the games they're "just going to play" in future are going to be affected by how the equality debate pans out. Articles and videos like those from Anita Sarkeesian are not there to take away their existing games, or censor the ones that already and will exist, or to say they are a bad person for playing those games. They're there so that current and future developers can go "Hey, maybe I can still make my game but without having to revert to an out-of-date trope".

We've had the big example brought up multiple times this week about how The Last of Us was shaped by such thinking, Neil Druckmann has explicitly said so and that is one of the most critically acclaimed games of the past couple of years. The 'agenda' is not about destroying games, it's about making them better.
 
I honestly would love an answer to that too.
So basically, you have no explanation besides "they must be crazy." That's really gonna convince people of the great journalist conspiracy.

You know what's creating this "bullying and hate"? Clicks. People are writing "gamers are dead" not because they're crazy, they're writing it because it's profitable when people won't stop clicking on it.
 
I just mean people that are on the extreme fringe of feminism often subscribe to utopian fantasy. Maybe this sounds like overly dramatic language, but it's not a new theory, and this is how it's been worded in academia for a while now.

It's a part of the human psyche. Throughout history, people rallying to a cause often can get caught up in that fantasy. And then they can get convinced that the only thing standing in the way of that fantasy, are human obstacles. And then those obstacles are demonized with propaganda to turn them into an inhuman caricature. And that's how you justify hate against human obstacles in hyper-ideological movements.

If you think throughout history, the examples of this are all over the place. Leigh Alexander literally says she has an army in her article, which literally is openly stating she's coordinating others for attack. Why use the language of militarism at all? One of the other headlines is, "Gamers are dead and the women who killed them." Why use terminology like "dead," or "kill?"

These are very ideological people, falling prey to an all-too-human instinct. The instinct to believe that we can reach utopia if we only dehumanize and destroy human obstacles. And this is their latest big offensive.

This isn't even the first attempt by these people to dehumanize and bully us. They literally can't stop themselves.

First it's Fedoras, complete with lots of pictures of ugly fat white men to hate.
Then it's Anime Avatars.
Now it's "Gamers."

There is literally a campaign on twitter right now where you make up a 4 word bigoted insult to dehumanize gamers, and lots of people in that circle are doing that for fun.

Honestly I'm having trouble replying to this, do you understand the leaps you're making to come to these conclusions?

> Do you know if Leigh Alexander is on the extreme fringe of feminism? (I've never seen any evidence of this in her articles btw)
> When did gaming journalists lead a campaign against Fedoras?
> Who else but Leigh Alexander in your opinion is part of this Hyper-ideological movement? What is it's goal?
> I explained this when talking to somebody else on a previous page, "Gamers are dead" is a version of "X is dead" and has often been used in headlines either seriously or with humor to discuss a changing medium or movement.
> What power do you believe people who write about games actually possess?


also small aside: Have you stopped to think of the amount of vitriol gamers regularly send developers and journalists over seemingly trivial topics? I mean, this is has always been the case think for how many years some people have had to put up with that shit. That some has come back isn't signalling the end times.
 

That's the kind of shit people both sides of things have to put up with. It's disingenuous to paint GamerGate supporters as a downtrodden victim-group and the same for anyone on my side of the argument too.
 
So basically, you have no explanation besides "they must be crazy." That's really gonna convince people of the great journalist conspiracy.

You know what's creating this "bullying and hate"? Clicks. People are writing "gamers are dead" not because they're crazy, they're writing it because it's profitable when people won't stop clicking on it.

Well, I didn't say that. I just wish I had a more specific answer related to these specific people.

I already told you that it's a part of the human psyche to be prone to fall prey to visions of grandeur, utopian fantasy, and dehumanizing hate. And I mentioned that it's happened throughout history, with disastrous results. You are counted as part of a movement. You get to think you're moral and good, and important. You get to bully people with impunity and convince yourself it's a positive thing.

It's seductive.

I agree that clicks are a huge part of the problem too. Controversy sells, and they are pretty good at creating it.
 
I hate to try and drive away the topic at hand, but I'd argue that Leigh Alexander is not indicative of the general state of games journalism, at least not deliberately. She has a greater air of superiority around her, some of it due to the fact that she's been in the scene for a long time, far longer than the names that got big two years ago when social justice in the games press got really big, and some of it is just enforced. In any case, she has less shame than anyone else involved, which is probably why she says all this like she has nothing to lose.

That sounds really dumb reading it back to myself, but how else has she been able to leak a responder's email address, tell her supporters that she's left the address in and to "have a good weekend" and not get fired for lack of etiquette whereas any other journalist or reporter would have trouble finding work again after a stunt like that?

Yes, I am mad. I'm getting my degree next Sunday. Shit like this gets under my skin, which is why I also get very mad at everyone throwing claims of corruption and collusion around like nothing without understanding the ramifications of such.

we've been complaining for years though.

Giant Bomb was formed because 2 reviewers gave a game a low score, and the publishers complained and got FIRED for it. real actual consequences.

that was as apparent to the public about the relation between games media as anything.

A lot of it is conspiracy theory sure, but when gaming medias had to disclose the swag they got, being flown for exclusive interviews, or being shut out from reviewing games due to gag orders from the big companies it's hard not to question what you are being fed.

the problem now is that while we've been questioning the behind the scenes for years, now journalists got cozy with a certain brand of individuals and are using what's supposed to be a movement for acceptance and inclusiveness as a shield for any criticism.
 
There was a Star Wars EU writer who compared her detractors to the Taliban. I don't need to tell you that Star Wars writers are not conspiring to destroy the Star Wars fandom.

I don't find that exactly comparable though.
On one hand, a writer who doesn't have much control on the whole star wars franchise in itself and, wether you like her or not, can be mostly put aside as the rest of the franchise would go on regardless. It's like if a comic book artist decided to act like a prick on his own. He wouldn't represent the voice of the comic book community just on his own

On the other, a person who thinks and wants to be the voice of a new generation (according to her speech of "We have an army" and other implications of the sort) and is published on one major gaming website with a certain dose of vitriol, with some other writers for similar websites (not all, of course) who engage in some particular violent discourses. That sentiment is then echoed by dozens of other media as it tries to convince the general public that "that's what it is now".

I personally do not think there is a conspiracy. I do not think they are malignant. But I do still see this as somewhat either very unprofessional for the people who are using vile language and comparison in their articles and being endorsed for it, and to be honest, based on my previous experience with looking at game journalism who don't do a lot of research, the sudden burst of dozens of similar articles is understandbly suspicious by some, and in very poor taste and timing for me. Because it's a lot of grand declarations without real depth. What really is a gamer, what is gamer culture, and is it really gamers that have created this culture and not the PR and games media in the first place ?

I've lost a metric ton of respect for the gaming media over these last couple of weeks. The wagon circling, vitriol spitting, name calling, lazy generalizations, and overall holier than thou attitude displayed by so many of these individuals has been disappointing.

That said, loosely-organized hashtag campaigns and poor behavior within these campaigns won't change a damned thing. I've seen a variety of topics debated within these campaigns, with zero focus and even less of a lasting effect-- save for The Escapist, whose co-founder actually responded.

Stop visiting the sites these writers work for and rewarding them with web traffic. Eliminate these people from your social media feeds. These two steps-- along with just playing the games you want to play-- will help in the long run by cutting down the excess noise and negativity while getting back to basics.

Oh, I don't campaign on twitter, and i do not visit these articles (I either ignore or use adblock). I've spent most of this week and today is probably the last because, to be fair and kinda agreeing with Menome on this one, there's too many variables going around to actually focus a discussion. I do, however, wish to keep tabs on it.

Despite my words, i'm not 100% engaged in this. I have a lot of work to do, colleagues and friends to think about, art to do and games to play. And I've seen some nice evolution during the week that also made me think a bit more everyday, to the point where at the end of the week, while my stance stays pretty much the same about journalism in games, I would agree that the subject could use a breather and then start anew when the slandering on both sides has subsided.

On a positive note, I all think you're cool and collected people and it's nice to have that despite our disagrements. I'd buy you all a drink right now if we were all wearing top hats and sitting in a fancy cafe shouting vehemently but politely
 
Giant Bomb was formed because 2 reviewers gave a game a low score, and the publishers complained and got FIRED for it. real actual consequences.
And then turned into perhaps the worst outfit when it comes to cozying up to developers. The landscape of what people will accept is just so bizarre to me.
 
On a positive note, I all think you're cool and collected people and it's nice to have that despite our disagrements. I'd buy you all a drink right now if we were all wearing top hats and sitting in a fancy cafe shouting vehemently but politely

Heh. Yeah, I would also add that whilst I fundamentally disagree with some of the people here, I in no way think they're bad people. Just incorrect. :p
 
And then turned into perhaps the worst outfit when it comes to cozying up to developers. The landscape of what people will accept is just so bizarre to me.

what they did afterwards is irrelevant. i personally don't watch GB.

what transpired though, what led to their firing, was confirmation on what the whole ordeal has been.

which was that people accused the big game companies had control of the gaming media and there was a marriage of interests that were not being disclosed.

Heh. Yeah, I would also add that whilst I fundamentally disagree with some of the people here, I in no way think they're bad people. Just incorrect. :p

ditto. except i'm correct. always. feel free to avatar quote me.
 
This latest 'scandal'? Yes, I do 100% believe it to be fruitless. People have latched onto a story where nothing inappropriate actually happened, but they think that just because they're consumers that they're privy to every personal detail about the personal lives of the people who produce content for them. If Nathan Grayson had indeed written a positive review of Depression Quest after sleeping with Zoe Quinn, I'd be up in arms with the rest of the people.

A group of people are rallying around the wrong thing right no and making themselves look foolish in the process. Remember the Kane & LynchGamespot debacle? That was something to get angry about. Remember the Watch Dogs free-Nexus 7 situation (that came to light because journalists told us about it and refused the gifts)? That's something to use as a starting-point. The past fortnight has done nothing to actually infringe on my viewpoint of gaming journalism and I think that sites have been acting entirely properly in the case of Zoe Quinn and business as usual in bandwagon-jumping on a hot topic over the wider implications of the 'Gamer' label.

Do they talk to each other? Of course they bloody do, the same way I talk to people at my workplaces from different departments or other contractors who come in/I go to with similar roles. Is it really that far-fetched that someone casually brought up an idea of 'Is the 'Gamer' label bad" and a bunch of people went with it because they thought it would be a decent opinion post/talking-point, not because it was a concerted effort to demean the gaming community?

GamerGate has simply come up at the wrong time, now spurred by a misconstrued article and propagated by people who are just at this certain moment in time, wrong. The fact that it's also being co-opted by anti-equality types is what's causing a large part of the backlash, especially when people who actually have a genuine concern are somehow turning a blind eye to the troublemakers in their own ranks.

You are free to believe what you want but it no less factually incorrect when undeniable evidence is right in front of you. How predictable are you that you still want to frame this like some kind of tantrum by entitled gamers that give two shits about developers' personal lives? Nobody even really talks about the "Five Guys" scandal outside of giving a brief timeline of what led up to #GamerGate, which, I remind you, is about journalism. You and people like you are the ones making this about women's rights as if we're out to marginalise individuals like Zoe Quinn because they're women - when that has nothing to do with.

You claim you'd be up in arms if the accusations against Nathan Grayson were true, but you seem perfectly content to ignore the fact - and I have already told you this twice - that Patricia Hernandez, another writer at Kotaku, has done this before, and has updated her articles as a result of #GamerGate because she was found out, and yet you claim it is all fruitless?

There have been scandals in the past that quieted down quickly, scandals that shouldn't have been allowed to quiet down, yes, I agree with you if that's the point you are making, however you have to keep in mind that none of those scandals involved widespread censorship and harassment of anyone that tried to talk about the issue. People were free to discuss it. Nobody was arrogant enough to think they could silence the internet.

If #GamerGate has proven anything, it's that websites haven't handled the Zoe Quinn scandal properly. It simply exposed their hypocrisy and inconsistent journalism in respect of the genders of the persons at the centre of the scandal.

Regardless of what started #GamerGate or how little you may think of the people supporting it, if you won't even bother with reviewing the evidence with a critical eye, then you are a part of the problem.

That's the kind of shit people both sides of things have to put up with. It's disingenuous to paint GamerGate supporters as a downtrodden victim-group and the same for anyone on my side of the argument too.

It's not my intent to be disingenuous though I understand that's what it looks like, my bad. I have stated that here are people like this on both sides though, and I just wanted to point to just one example of seemingly countless as the current narrative is that all proponents of #GamerGate are misogynists.
 
The fact that people dismiss the Zoe Quinn relation to this is all is kinda weird, yes she as a woman can sleep with whoever she wants and however many people she wants. But it's the people that she slept with that shows the coziness with indie devs and game journalists who support them by good press or even any press in general. Like with Patrica Hernandez *who to be honest never actually writes anything BUT opinion pieces* which makes me wonder why she even calls herself a journalist.....anyway she was proven to be publicly admitting to sleeping with these pair of devs she was promoting and Kotaku even admitted to this straight up on their site, so then after that happen many other people found tons of other conflicts about these writers.

So when people question them on this conflicts they all together proclaim that "gamers" are dead and that anybody playing games should feel like crap. Even to the point where EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE ALLOWS NO DISCUSSION they moderate any dissenting views about them even publicly admitting to pushing an agenda (which SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING) So yeah that's why people are royally pissed.

watch this. and you can ignore all the zoe quinn but every single damn thing said about those writers is real and people are calling them out on it.

Again like I keep saying also to prove either further the unwillingness for this "journalists" to follow a damn line of ethics is freaking amazing to the point where people completely and uttering straight up attack Kotaku because they actually made their code closer to this. these people are so entrenched in their agenda that they're blinded by anything logically correct.
 
I just mean people that are on the extreme fringe of feminism often subscribe to utopian fantasy. Maybe this sounds like overly dramatic language, but it's not a new theory, and this is how it's been worded in academia for a while now.

It's a part of the human psyche. Throughout history, people rallying to a cause often can get caught up in that fantasy. And then they can get convinced that the only thing standing in the way of that fantasy, are human obstacles. And then those obstacles are demonized with propaganda to turn them into an inhuman caricature. And that's how you justify hate against human obstacles in hyper-ideological movements.

If you think throughout history, the examples of this are all over the place. Leigh Alexander literally says she has an army in her article, which literally is openly stating she's coordinating others for attack. Why use the language of militarism at all? One of the other headlines is, "Gamers are dead and the women who killed them." Why use terminology like "dead," or "kill?"

These are very ideological people, falling prey to an all-too-human instinct. The instinct to believe that we can reach utopia if we only dehumanize and destroy human obstacles. And this is their latest big offensive.

This isn't even the first attempt by these people to dehumanize and bully us. They literally can't stop themselves.

First it's Fedoras, complete with lots of pictures of ugly fat white men to hate.
Then it's Anime Avatars.
Now it's "Gamers."

There is literally a campaign on twitter right now where you make up a 4 word bigoted insult to dehumanize gamers, and lots of people in that circle are doing that for fun.

Can you explain what is it your talking about here? I mean, not every journalist is a radical feminist (I sure Leigh Alexander is some sort of feminist, but I highly doubt she's a radical feminist). And I don't think they are dehumanizing, I think they are lashing out at people who are shitting on them. I mean, we are talking about this in a thread that was originally about press taking free ps3's and other swag for coverage. I don't think most of these people have the highest of standards and ethics so I don't think they want some utopia but they don't like being shit on and they are responding in kind. And titles in the articles can be contributed to being an awkward phrasing more than anything else. No one has an army and no ones dying and I think we all know this.
 
anyway she was proven to be publicly admitting to sleeping with these pair of devs she was promoting and Kotaku even admitted to this straight up on their site, so then after that happen many other people found tons of other conflicts about these writers.

Did Kotaku do that? Link?
 
That's the kind of shit people both sides of things have to put up with. It's disingenuous to paint GamerGate supporters as a downtrodden victim-group and the same for anyone on my side of the argument too.
It's these extreme voices that seem to control the discussion while everyone in between kind of gets ignored (at least by the bigger players). It's just much easier to attack the "hypocritical social justice warrior" or the "misogynistic manbaby" then to lead a normal discussion.

Jason Schreier summed it up pretty well.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s71k8k
 
There are widespread ethical problems in gaming journalism no doubt, mostly involving sponsorship, access, and giveaways by AAA publishers. Are there widespread problems involving undue attention to indie games? No. Are there widespread problems with developers trading sex for coverage? Fuck no, and the people using that imaginary threat as an excuse to harass people they don't like are a cancer at the heart of the medium, traitors to everything that gaming ought to stand for.
 
Did Kotaku do that? Link?

http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269 which came from this reddit post proving she was sleeping with these devs and NEVER disclosed it her articles. But let's ignore this because we're all basement dwelling nerds who love our moms or some crap. Then to make it even better they thought that having a little Update message on their previous articles saying they're friends just sweeps it all under the rug and be fine.
 
I genuinely wish a pervasive equality 'agenda' was shaping reader's thoughts for the better. The stream of bile-filled comments that follow any sort of equality-based article, either on a site itself or on other outlets shows that it's not the case. There seems to be a notion that "SJW journalists" are trying to brainwash their reader-base. Brainwashing can't really be said to be in effect if you think it's going on. ;)

I never said their goal was realistic. That's why it's called "utopia." The word originates from Greek language, meaning "no-place."

What is real though is the bullying and hate they are promoting in the meantime.

I disagree with both of your guys...presentation on what is going on and here is why.

This is quite the assumption, to assume that the few websites actually linked to most of this shit, is sending an "equality agenda" message or for trying to obtain some form of utopia. All I'm seeing out of all of this is clicks and following the leader. The big sites, IGN/Gametrailers/Gamespot/Escapist(the co-founder actually coming out and saying some of the tweets and ect are irresponsible) and ect are not caught up in any of this, so I do agree this message isnt a conspiracy about the media. I do, however, think there is a lot of circling the wagon(among this small group), on anything that is a decent counter point, not by calling out the counter points, but by calling out random internet comments as proof that it is a systemic issue(when if you compare it to the internet at large is a tiny drop in the bucket).

Yes, gamers and the journalists take their hobby too seriously, but it would be ignorant to say there isn't money to be made from clickbait articles that are designed to stir the pot. The game press for a very small window in time was "professional" in the sense of during the EGM/Gamepro days it was pretty much like every other product review mag, it covered the material. Now we are in an industry where the game news isnt enough to generate proper revenue, so you are forced to go outside your purview. The problem is, the game industry doesn't have proper classifications of jobs. Because the journalists get paid shit, the reporters are the op-ed writers, are the activists, are the journalists, are the advertisers, are the consultants.

While calling it a conspiracy is disingenuous, it is not disingenuous that most of the infighting we are currently seeing is based on sentiment, based on twitter and blog events, and not on empirical evidence of a systemic problem with the consumer. If anything, all this highlights is problems within the industry and how the publishers are the ones in control of the message.

Because trust me, if normal products are trying to now advertise and make money off the current feminist moniker that is being used in sweeping generalizations, I can bet you the industry will be damn sure to try and profit off this. The idea that people could do this for a "utopia" is just ridiculous, however to imply that they are doing this for clicks, money, and trying to create more of a platform for themselves, which by extension is profitable in the current market, is FAR from slander, because we are continually seeing it in traditional and new media in the real world dealing with everything from products to politics.

When you see all this blowing up in more ways then just the fringe MRA hater or internet troll, it means the message of the day from a certain % of the game press isn't about specifically issues;(because honestly, I'm not seeing any real action to change current mechanics in the industry to improve diversity) it's about clicks, personal gain, and a lack of professional standards that keep things separated from one another.

But hey, if you think their message is them trying to come off for equality or to burn out all the people they disagree with, more power to you all. I, however, remain skeptical and that most of this is for profit(the thousands of articles, mirad of self promotions, and other high-school drama). So for me, I'll argue the points I disagree with, argue the points I do agree with and keep it at that; because trying to prove collusion or good intentions is a crapshoot left to people more motivated then I, to drive a specific narrative.
 
I feel you've kind of gone over the edge.

These people write everyday about videogames for usually pretty shit money from what I understand because they love the culture, and they write for people who play games (mostly, and obviously for the sake of writing too).
The best political movements are the ones that don't seem political.

You're being taken for a ride, friend. Any coincidence that 15+ "gamers are really bad people" articles come up in response to this situation? If we have a journalism industry that is - as some claim - actually full of diverse ideas and opinions, wouldn't you expect to see a diverse reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal? Wouldn't you expect some to say "you know? This really does make us re-evaluate the way we do our job."

I find it odd how this thread - dating back to 2012 - is brought up in the overall discussion but people are actually DEFENDING the same industry that they spend 200+ threads lambasting over the past 2 years. Kinda like how many on NeoGaf said that Phil Fish "got what he deserved for being a prick" in the Marcus Beer incident, yet they rallied around him during his most recent public appearance. It reeks of an agenda.
 
http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269 which came from this reddit post proving she was sleeping with these devs and NEVER disclosed it her articles. But let's ignore this because we're all basement dwelling nerds who love our moms or some crap. Then to make it even better they thought that having a little Update message on their previous articles saying they're friends just sweeps it all under the rug and be fine.

The reddit post says it proves that the two "are close friends who have lived together in the past." The note from Totilo never even mentions a romantic relationship, and Stephen Totilo makes this comment in which he says that such a romantic relationship never existed.
 
The best political movements are the ones that don't seem political.

You're being taken for a ride, friend. Any coincidence that 15+ "gamers are really bad people" come up in response to this situation? If we have a journalism industry that is - as some claim - actually full of diverse ideas and opinions, wouldn't you expect to see a diverse reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal?

There is only one appropriate reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal. (And by "the Zoe Quinn scandal", I mean the incident where her ex-boyfriend posted of insubstantiated allegations that lead Quinn's harassment.)
 
The reddit post says it proves that the two "are close friends who have lived together in the past." The note from Totilo never even mentions a romantic relationship, and Stephen Totilo makes this comment in which he says that such a romantic relationship never existed.

....you didn't even look at the reddit post did you? She publicly addmitted to sleeping and staying over at this people's houses...how is that not a conflict of interest?
 
....you didn't even look at the reddit post did you? She publicly addmitted to sleeping and staying over at this people's houses...how is that not a conflict of interest?

Not to disagree but just to be a bit nitpicky: the conflict of interest specifically stems from them having a close relation (romantic or not is unrelated), not the "sleeping and staying at one 's place" although it is likely linked of course, but I'd just thought I'd rephrase :p
 
The best political movements are the ones that don't seem political.

You're being taken for a ride, friend. Any coincidence that 15+ "gamers are really bad people" come up in response to this situation? If we have a journalism industry that is - as some claim - actually full of diverse ideas and opinions, wouldn't you expect to see a diverse reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal? Wouldn't you expect some to say "you know? This really does make us re-evaluate the way we do our job."

I find it odd how this thread - dating back to 2012 - is brought up in the overall discussion but people are actually DEFENDING the same industry that they spend 200+ threads lambasting over the past 2 years. Kinda like how many on NeoGaf said that Phil Fish "got what he deserved for being a prick" in the Marcus Beer incident, yet they rallied around him during his most recent public appearance. It reeks of an agenda.

Differing reactions from the audience are emblematic of how you react to different situations: a basic way we think about the world. People change their minds and stances based on the debate being made.

I think Phil Fish is a silly wank, but I agree with his tweets since his "resurrection" and I'm not so loyal to my own opinion that I can't stand behind someone making sense. That's not an agenda, that's being a rational human being.
 
The best political movements are the ones that don't seem political.

You're being taken for a ride, friend. Any coincidence that 15+ "gamers are really bad people" come up in response to this situation? If we have a journalism industry that is - as some claim - actually full of diverse ideas and opinions, wouldn't you expect to see a diverse reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal? Wouldn't you expect some to say "you know? This really does make us re-evaluate the way we do our job."

I find it odd how this thread - dating back to 2012 - is brought up in the overall discussion but people are actually DEFENDING the same industry that they spend 200+ threads lambasting over the past 2 years. Kinda like how many on NeoGaf said that Phil Fish "got what he deserved for being a prick" in the Marcus Beer incident, yet they rallied around him during his most recent public appearance. It reeks of an agenda.
You caught us. We're all shills and part of the conspiracy to take away your games. We rallied around Phil Fish not because we were sympathetic that he got doxxed, but because we're part of the great equality agenda.

Seriously, fuck this. It's gotten to the most extreme point where those arguing against the existence of a conspiracy are rationalized as part of it. There is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise because arguing against the existence of a conspiracy makes me a member of the conspiracy.
 
Techraptor, one of the few outlets that spoke out against unethical games journalism, claims to have been banned from reddit and to be threatened.
Code:
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That's really unfortunate.
 
http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269 which came from this reddit post proving she was sleeping with these devs and NEVER disclosed it her articles. But let's ignore this because we're all basement dwelling nerds who love our moms or some crap. Then to make it even better they thought that having a little Update message on their previous articles saying they're friends just sweeps it all under the rug and be fine.

That Kotaku note from Stephen Totilo still doesn't read to me like they've certifiably done something wrong and are apologising for it. It says to me that due to concerns raised during the Zoe Quinn situation, they're taking steps to try and make sure a genuine conflict of interest doesn't arise in future. They've looked at stuff like the Patreon funding and gone "Whilst it's likely to be completely innocent, people may not see it that way, so it's best to be safe".

You're constructing a narrative of Kotaku based on what you falsely believe to be an admission of guilt. As for Patricia Hernandez's situation, I'm going to say having read on it this past half-hour, yeah, maybe there is something there to be looked at. There is still no concrete proof, but it would have been a much more acknowledgeable rallying-point than what the past couple of weeks have blown up over.
 
The best political movements are the ones that don't seem political.

You're being taken for a ride, friend. Any coincidence that 15+ "gamers are really bad people" articles come up in response to this situation? If we have a journalism industry that is - as some claim - actually full of diverse ideas and opinions, wouldn't you expect to see a diverse reaction to the Zoe Quinn scandal? Wouldn't you expect some to say "you know? This really does make us re-evaluate the way we do our job."

I find it odd how this thread - dating back to 2012 - is brought up in the overall discussion but people are actually DEFENDING the same industry that they spend 200+ threads lambasting over the past 2 years. Kinda like how many on NeoGaf said that Phil Fish "got what he deserved for being a prick" in the Marcus Beer incident, yet they rallied around him during his most recent public appearance. It reeks of an agenda.

I've never said it was coincidence but that doesn't mean it's conspiracy either, because I've already discussed it I'm gonna quote myself from 3 pages ago.

"Gamers are dead" could very well just be used because it's a punchy memorable line though right? This is nothing new, "X is dead" as long been used either seriously or with some sarcasm or humor when discussing change in cultures or technology or whatever (a bit like how people paraphrase famous GAF quotes, amir0x etc). Also seeing as how these discussions have all erupted out of specific events in the last few weeks it's kinda understandable that it multiple outlets might group it around the same term.

I agree that getting multiple angles is useful but these look like thinkpieces to me and maybe it's as much that multiple journalists are all kinda feeling the same way about their relationship with their readers/communities, or the same way about where gaming culture is headed.

I'm having trouble seeing the sort of conspiracy/not-conspiracy angle here. Wanting more from journalists or being disappointed that more viewpoints haven't been explored is perfectly understandable but that doesn't mean that it's all down to clickbaits or conspiracies.
 
You caught us. We're all shills and part of the conspiracy to take away your games. We rallied around Phil Fish not because we were sympathetic that he got doxxed, but because we're part of the great equality agenda.

Seriously, fuck this. It's gotten to the most extreme point where those arguing against the existence of a conspiracy are rationalized as part of it.
That's not what I'm saying at all. But classic use of dismissive language instead of addressing what I said. I am pointing out the cross inconsistencies, that's all. I'm pointing out that some game journalists are circling the wagons around their little group. Note how sites like IGN and Gamespot and EDGE and Eurogamer really don't have much of anything to say about all this. It's not a conspiracy. It's not a plot to do something evil.

But is it a cover-up performed by those in control of the information flow? I'd say that more than one or two things are being covered up and are not being addressed with honesty and integrity. I don't view that as an industry-wide conspiracy. I view that as journalists who lack integrity continuing to lack integrity. From the initial reaction to the knee-jerk reponse to the marginalizing of ANY dissenting voice to the shutting-down of discussion to the painting of 'gamers' with dismissive and offensive strokes....yeah, I'd say that journalists still have a lot to answer for. That doesn't mean I advocate for exposing someone's personal life (even in cases of "conflict of interest" I believe some discretion should be followed) but at the same time I don't think it's all a non-issue.

I've never said it was coincidence but that doesn't mean it's conspiracy either, because I've already discussed it I'm gonna quote myself from 3 pages ago.
I don't think it's a "conspiracy". I think that when a group of people get caught in a lie they tend to continue lying. If that group of people is in a place of authority (or a place where they can control information flow or public opinion) then history tells me they'll try to cover it up first. This is how scandals get started in the first place.

The titles were more than just "gamers are dead. hyuk hyuk. ironic hyperbole".

Other article titles were:
Why Are Gamers So Angry
A Guide to Ending “Gamers”
’Gamers’ don’t have to be your audience. ‘Gamers’ are over.
The End of Gamers
The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them

That sounds pretty negative and not just in a sarcastic way.

I'll repeat: the simultaneous appearance of these articles isn't a "conspiracy" per se. Rather, it's just a reaction of unprofessional writers who have perhaps been caught in a lie and they are lashing out against their accusers with polemic aimed at discrediting their accusers.
 
This is disgusting. As much as I hate The Daily Beast for their bias, I wouldn't want them pulled off the internet for thinking differently. There is no reason TechRaptor should be taken down for taking a different stance. So very disappointing.

This comedy of horrors is so hilarious that people are now blaming this imagined mentality of censorship for a host being shitty and flaky?

That Zoe Quinn and her evil minions have infiltrated not only games journalism itself, but also control domain providers. I hear they've managed to assimilate the mole people, so watch out for earthquakes.
 
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