Gsak
Member
THAT should be on Kotaku. Not 100% right imo, but still it is a calmer, more reasonable voice.
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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THAT should be on Kotaku. Not 100% right imo, but still it is a calmer, more reasonable voice.
For what values of "nobody"? We had a seventeen page thread on GAF... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=853507&page=17
Yes on gaf yes but a lot of people were condemning him declaring him guilty and when a reporter does that even if it is Kotaku, and it's different when we argue about it here on gaf, but that none of the gaming press reacted the same way they did with a certain other scandal really tells you what you need to know.
THE FUCK?
There is nothing conspiratorial about what has been talked about in this thread (like Rab Florance getting sacked for pointing out a conflict of interest), to claim that there is just shows a complete lack of logic and reason on your part!
That is a moronic generalization!
A huge amount of people are gamers and they clearly function just fine!
Once again, an other stupid generalization!
No it is fucking not, neogaf is no better than tons of other places on the internet!
I think there are a bunch of people at Kotaku who do GREAT work. I have read a ton of amazing pieces there that have been thoughtful, revelatory, and well-written. There is a ton I appreciate on the site.
BUT, I think that the gawker blog model is based on a mixture of in-depth reporting/long-form features and short click-baity features that can muddy the water quite a bit and leave the reader with mixed feelings about the experience they have on the site. I can understand that in the current climate that is probably necessary for the site's survival. Maybe that's just part and parcel of the blog format for a games site, you literally have to scroll past all the things that aren't worth your time to get to the good stuff. I think there is an annoyance among a lot of readers (and this is not at ALL exclusive to Kotaku, it's also relevant to other sites) about the number of stories that are more or less regurgitation of things posted elsewhere, with a little "opinion" thrown in to spice it up a bit. In many of these cases there is an attitude present, but no actual reporting being done.
I mean to be honest Jason, half the posts on Kotaku feel like they went up in the middle of the night when everyone's asleep, and weren't check for quality at all. That's probably exactly what happens, and is maybe necessary to "feed the beast."
Anyways, I think there are a ton of talented writers there and I actually like the site. I like your features, I really like Kirk Hamilton's reviews, I think Tina and Evan and Stephen have posted a ton of good stuff over the years. The format is just one that doesn't lend itself to anything close to a perfect browsing experience. I am sympathetic to how hard it must be to write for a widely read site like Kotaku at this time.
Also, sorry, that's a lot to read and I don't have any answers, just felt like sharing my thoughts.
I really like this and agree with what you said.
All fair points. It's nice to hear from some of the more moderate voices.
And yeah, I didn't even put that together.
US Gamer
Eurogamer
Pretty big sites.
The way that I see it is that the press only has one thing to lose. And that is their relationships with people at other outlets, and people who are in the development community. This one mind speak where there is a blanket adoption of terms and ideology across outlets has never been healthy, but it is defended.
This is where it gets sticky, because there is so much cross over from press to dev/publishing that those that are "mainly" in San Fran are jammed between a rock and a hard place. Whether it be actual coupling across the lines, or just regular buddy access, it's a bit threatening to even consider cutting ties when most have no clue how to actually be journalists. The constant in fighting and public campaigning against outlets and their viewerships that some Writers use to gather their flocks with does not help at all either.
These are not people trained to do things like go out and find the other side of the story. They simply aren't paid enough to take risks. There is a reliance on access by not asking questions that are hard to answer.
I mean really, Kotaku trys to sets standards for what their writers can and should contribute towards, and Journalists and devs all over the place lost their freakin' minds, even when they don't work for that outlet. This isn't about being impartial for them. This is about exposing that English and so- and so- study majors do not a journalist make.
More so, there should be separation. But no one has approached just how much is reasonable and needed to this point.
This is where it gets sticky, because there is so much cross over from press to dev/publishing that those that are "mainly" in San Fran are jammed between a rock and a hard place. Whether it be actual coupling across the lines, or just regular buddy access, it's a bit threatening to even consider cutting ties when most have no clue how to actually be journalists. The constant in fighting and public campaigning against outlets and their viewerships that some Writers use to gather their flocks with does not help at all either.
These are not people trained to do things like go out and find the other side of the story. They simply aren't paid enough to take risks. There is a reliance on access by not asking questions that are hard to answer.
I mean really, Kotaku trys to sets standards for what their writers can and should contribute towards, and Journalists and devs all over the place lost their freakin' minds, even when they don't work for that outlet. This isn't about being impartial for them. This is about exposing that English and so- and so- study majors do not a journalist make.
More so, there should be separation. But no one has approached just how much is reasonable and needed to this point.
The article you linked doesn't even accuse him of having committed rape, it mostly criticizes him on the way he approached the allegations.
Why don't you tell me "what I need to know" instead of tossing out implications like they're self evident?
JesseEwiak
Member
I'd argue the real reason why you aren't getting "real" journalism is simple - a lack of access. In political journalism, everybody, up to and including the President is leaking stuff because it's beneficial to them. In games journalism, that's impossible, because nobody is leaking anything, especially at the higher levels.
Harry Reid, John Boehner, and Joe Biden's staff are all leaking stuff to the Post, Times, and so on. Nobody on Bobby Kotic's or the French supervillian that is running Ubisoft's staff is leaking or talking to anybody in the games press.
In addition, the people in the middle who do leak things in the entertainment industry have protections from unions that people in the games industry doesn't. The union best boy can tell a friend who will let Variety know Superman & Batman is a hot mess. The junior designer on Assassin's of Duty 7 needs this job to get the next job, and so on.
Finally, and most importantly, Microsoft, Sony, and all the rest can just say "no comment" or not answer the phone because most of the actual audience won't care because there's a new trailer out of Gears of Killzone 4 : More Blood!
Sure. It'd be impossible to post 60 reported stories a day with the staff we have. (We have about 15 full-time staff -- two of them video guys, two of them editorial assistants -- which is way fewer than any other professional gaming site.) And part of our model involves sharing videos and other stuff we see elsewhere on the web.
I do wish there was a way we could separate our original content and filter it from the fluff. (One option is selects.kotaku.com, but even that doesn't have everything, and isn't updated every hour.) Still, it's pretty easy to use RSS and only read/watch the stories you're interested in, or even just use GAF as an aggregation tool. (That's what I do!)
Yes and she had to change the article because she was basically condemning the man without knowing the facts properly I believe in the rule of law innocent until proven guilty.
And when you as a reporter start writing about this and condemn someone publicly who has not been charged, if that had happen in a newspaper the journalist would have been fired.
And yes he could have handled the situation better but for a gaming site that said during last weeks debacle, that we do not post reports on peoples personal lives they seem to forget that when it came to him.
And no evidence only one accusation if he was guilty then fine arrest him and charge him but if he is not she participated in ruing the mans life Patricia Hernandez is not a judge or a cop.
Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy that's all
Reading about the Love-Hernandez friendship really disappointed me. Love has really unique, clever voice and to be honest even though what was dug up by all these stalkerish twitter detectives was fairly minor compared to the rest, next time I pick up one of her games there's going to be a little voice in the back of my head saying "What are you doing?" Week late slowpoke here but fuck it all.
Also Jason, keep up the good work 😽
Also Jason, keep up the good work 😽
I'd argue again, that these aren't journalists. They are people with college majors that they can't use any where else outside of their own campaigns. It's not at all specific to this industry. But they aren't "taught" how to be journalists.
You can find a hundred articles in major newspapers and websites condemning Jameis Winston and he was never charged with rape. It's news. Further, Max Tempkin is a public figure, he responded to the charges publicly, and violent actions are plainly public news. By contrast, Zoe Quinn may be a public figure, but she never responded to the accusations except to say they were no one's business and plainly broke no laws. These are differences of kind, not degree. This is not to say that discussing the allegations about Tempkin were fair game; I'm ambivalent about that. But he should be used as a cudgel against websites who were exercising sound judgment about what is news and what isn't in other cases.
JesseEwiak
Member
Sure, but even with they were taught, and there was this wall between developers and journalists, or whatever, you'd still have the basic problem that John Smith at Developer X is not going to let Blogger Y and Website Z that "hey, we're releasing a completely broken game on the 17th," because John Smith is already looking for his next job and the chance he's known as the guy that blew the whistle that Game A was a broke piece of shit will stall his career.
OTOH, the union carpenter or whomever can bullshit all he wants, along with various agents for the actual stars in Hollywood about problems in various games, whether it's creative or business, because they have the freedom to do so.
I use games press as a term, because it works best in my eyes.
wonderdung
Member
Really good thoughts, but I wish you could have done it without the dig at Ubisoft. I realize it's just a twitter post, but if you want to be the bastion of Good Gaming Journalism you're going to have to do better than continuing to propagate reductive crap like "Ubisoft thinks women are too hard/expensive to animate!"
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Jason, I implore you, stop being the most reasonable voice in your field.
Really though, fantastic post. I could not agree more. Both sides of this conversation are so caught up in yelling at the other that nothing can get done. And I've seen your Twitter convos; you're even getting attacked by your own peers for trying to approach this situation without all the emotion. There's a real issue to be looked at here. The journalists are too busy circling the wagons and snubbing their collective nose at the audience to look at it, and the #GamersGate people are too busy being human pieces of garbage to look at it.
Keep doing what you do, Jason. You and Stephen are the best.
Gsak
Member
First of all it's #GamerGate and second: what?
Don't you know we're being the disgusting ones because I mean this is totally not disgusting. https://twitter.com/cauchies/status/506276594571546624 or the fact that these people constantly spew this moral high ground bullcrap yet will do this....I'm so glad this will come out and show humanity itself has evil in it so don't blame and persecute innocent people, because of a select few that the media seems to want to make the head focus of the whole thing. Games media need to support good behavior not promote bad behavior. But I guess that doesn't get them enough clicks does it?
Gsak
Member
Quotes like that one of RatsoffToYa are exactly the hateful speech I was talking about earlier. As for the Tweet, what else can I say other than that I am appalled?
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
I find many of the GamerGate talking points I've seen to be disgusting and thoroughly opposed to the idea of inclusiveness in gaming.
Gsak
Member
And whatever your opinion may be on #GamerGate, gives you the right to collectively call people "human pieces of garbage"? Really? Yeah, that's inclusive...
*sigh* then you're not paying attention, the whole point of this thing is to show the damn corruption in the media and the laziness of the damn media to do THEIR JOBS and actually look up things. This is all these sites do is spew "look at this evil thing, or look at this other evil thing. By the way did you know I'm the bastion of morality and I can say whatever I want because I believe it's right." That's what most of these places are doing and they attribute this shitfest to normal people blaming them that they ran the damn narrative of gamers being evil when they never bothered to promote the good that gamers have been doing for years now.
RadarScope1
Member
New to the convo, but I'll jump in
You hit the nail on the head with respect to access. That's the issue in a nutshell and it's why covering games, all things considered, has always had trouble graduating to the level of real journalism.
And It's actually even simpler than a matter of who's leaking what. When it comes to covering the basic functions of a working democratic society - government, business, etc - there are Sunshine laws that require open records. And yes I realize games are business but the development side is so clouded and tightly controlled that real access is lacking.
RockTurtle
Member
really? which talking points are those? and where are they posted?
i've seen the gamergate hashtag and all i see are feminists and gamoe journos posting mockery, insults, and outright outlandish comments in an attempt to derail and belittle.
in fact, i see a ton of minorities and even female gamers who support the gamergate hashtag being ignored or insulted outright.
Gsak
Member
Also since we did talk about Kotaku, anybody has anything to say on the Patricia Hernandez/Anna Anthropy subject? NOT, I repeat, not about their personal lives. Just the "breach of ethics" issue. http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ejs7v/gaming_journalists_patricia_hernandez_of_kotaku/
And/or about this? http://imgur.com/Ageb3fi
And/or about this? http://imgur.com/Ageb3fi
JesseEwiak
Member
Also, that. I mean, frankly, the openness the rest of the entertainment industry has is kind of surprising, when compared to most of the rest of business in the US. I mean, I would guess, and I could be completely wrong, that outside of out-and-out whistleblowing, there's not a lot of "journalism" in the say, shipbuilding industry. There's lots of news that's rewritten PR pieces, hype up about new ships, and so on.
That's the inherent problem of journalism within gaming. It's an entertainment industry where access is assumed, but it's run like a regular industry where secrecy is assumed. So, you have people who just want "objective" reviews of games as if they were stereo systems, people interested in feminist critiques of games, and people who just look at the score, and that's it.
Um, why is "a developer's PR person may be a bit of an ass" a news story. I'm sure if you got Jeff Gerstmann or Adam Sessler drunk in a room, they'd have stories about dozens of asshole PR people.
Gsak
Member
Probably because she apparently acts against everything she preaches and wants to see in gaming?
JesseEwiak
Member
On a level of 1 to 100, how much time do you think the major news sites should be putting in to finding out whether or not a indy game developer's PR person may not be a very nice person when trying to help her client out?
'Cause that's what you're actually asking for. Other than the fact we've gone from completely believing the rants of an ex-boyfriend to just believing random people's post on Reddit, cause they fit our narrative.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Jason has been fairly direct on Twitter about that being a clear breach of ethics, and I agree.
The second part just looks like the kind of personal, irrelevant hearsay that this entire "movement" seems to be grounded on.
And what does that have to do with journalistic ethics?
See, this is the shit right here. You say it's about one thing but all too often it falls right back into character assassination.
Gsak
Member
1) "Rants of an ex-boyfriend" with detailed analysis and screenshots. And most of it was aknowleged by Quinn and not only.
2) " just believing random people's post on Reddit, cause they fit our narrative" If you've seen my post I used the word "apparently". I never claimed it's the absolute truth.
JesseEwiak
Member
This is the whole problem. "I'm like sure, obviously, let people know how you got the game you're reviewing. OK, yeah, if you're dating or in a close personal relationship with somebody, disclose that. Don't accept trips from game companies. Yep. Wait, what? Um? Do we even know if this is true? Or that anybody is actually doing that? No? But, it sounds good? Guys....*walks away*"
JesseEwiak
Member
Right, you're just asking questions. I mean, we don't know if Bill Clinton raped a woman/George W. Bush let 9/11 happen/Barack Obama is a Secret Muslim, so we're just asking questions here, without any actual evidence.
RadarScope1
Member
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Tadh...e_Of_Gamings_Truthers_And_Their_Gamergate.php
Here's great piece that articulates for me why I find so much of this shit to be infuriating. The people who are imagining their hobby is being wrecked are lot like the people who make believe that concern about climate change is some secret plot to wreck the western economy. Long but great.
And, I've had a hard time keeping up with everything over the holiday weekend here in the US but it sounds like there's some YouTube manifesto floating around. Is that real?
http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/31/why-i-feel-bad-for-and-understand-the-angry-gamergate-gamers/
And another good one.
Here's great piece that articulates for me why I find so much of this shit to be infuriating. The people who are imagining their hobby is being wrecked are lot like the people who make believe that concern about climate change is some secret plot to wreck the western economy. Long but great.
And, I've had a hard time keeping up with everything over the holiday weekend here in the US but it sounds like there's some YouTube manifesto floating around. Is that real?
http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/31/why-i-feel-bad-for-and-understand-the-angry-gamergate-gamers/
And another good one.
Gsak
Member
Allow me an Internet meme response: Lolwut?
If you as a writer are proven to lie and push your agenda on everybody, that makes the things you right and touch tainted it shouldn't be pushed at media sites.
So the fact that all of these people are connected and constantly praising each other and giving each other awards, evidence is Zoe Quinn got a damn award from Indiecade which Maya is part of and GUESS WHAT Maya is one of her very close friends. That makes the damn award invalid and many ways and proving that this whole damn thing is corrupted.
Gsak
Member
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Maya Kramer isn't a game journalist.
JesseEwiak
Member
Why should anybody look into the ramblings of some random person on Reddit. Because that's what you're asking for.
What I'm referencing is the way you sidestepped things. Oh, of course, you don't know if that thing about Quinn's PR person is true or not, but ya' know, you're just asking questions.
This is the crap I'm talking about http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/96328314550/on-i-dont-even-know women who are tweeting under the tag of #gamergate are being their info exposed and harrased by the same freaking people who spew their high morality bullcrap.
Gsak
Member
That's what questions are for. To learn if something is true or not. That's what being skeptical is about. If you don't want to ask questions, it's your right to do so. But so is mine to ask them.
JesseEwiak
Member
I totally understand that tweet. Put it this way. I have way more respect for the 9/11 bombers for standing up for their beliefs upfront, even if they're abhorrent, than the masses of people who wanted War with Iraq, but weren't willing to spill their blood for it.
But, if we're going by the "one tweet ruins your reputation" school, the entirety of the "game journalists hate real gamers" crowd is gone in a poof of smoke.
Gsak
Member
Please, I cannot take you seriously with what you're saying. And I won't keep this exchange up. If you want pm me and we can continue there.
JesseEwiak
Member
Um, welcome to every industry. It's called networking. I mean, am I the only person on GAF who ever got a job 'cause I knew a guy?
Why is asking questions about a random post on Reddit more important than the other 5,000 things a person in the games press has to do? I mean, if there was a long non-sourced posts completely absolving Zoe or anybody else in the games press of blame, would you be asking for questions to be asked for that post as well?
Because I'll tell you. I give non-sourced Reddit posts the same credibility I give the rantings of the homeless guy at the Safeway.
Maya is part of sliverstring media which is PR and helps indiecade which then gave Zoe Quinn a award which is what places used to promote her game. This makes the award and what people reported to be scrutinized. Which involves journalism.
If the person who is networking you to get a job and promote you then gives you an award for your said game that makes the award invalid....how's that so hard to understand? That's like a person giving an award to themselves because you like yourself completely separate from the game itself.
RadarScope1
Member
All of this just seems so small time to me. It cracks me up that people are so worked up about this stuff.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Journalism is corrupt because it factually reported the results of a politically-motivated award? (And as we all know, awards in any other field are never ever politically motivated!)
You're hilarious. I'm out.
JesseEwiak
Member
Awards are as valid as people care that they are. OK, the news is out there that this PR person was on the board of Indiecade or whatever? Can I admit something? I don't really care.
I think this is why I can't get upset over "corruption" in game journalism ethics. So, a bunch of people who knew each other basically made up an excuse to give each other awards? Welcome to independent film making. Or independent music. Or any kind of indie scene, that's going be as incestuous as a Game of Throne's royal family.
I mean, maybe I just figured out a long time ago that life isn't a meritocracy. It's about luck, who ya' knew, how you sell yourself, and how good you are, kind of. It also helps not be an ass to people for no good reason.
+1
I mean, look at the bands that get a lot of play in your local alternative magazine. Now, go look at their Facebook friends and see how many local journalists they're friends with. And then, go find some other bands who are bitching about the cliquy 'x' scene in their city. Welcome to the entertainment business.
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