I had a rare encounter with a racist today.
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SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The reason for it being offensive has to be more than the OP being offended. There has to be some context for the offense. A person could be deeply offended by the terms black or white when they are used to describe their race but then so what? Those are acceptable terms in modern times.
If the context is there then the reasonable thing to do is to point it out. Maybe bring up an article or something. But taking offense doesn't mean anything in and of itself. The person taking offense isn't always the one in the right. Especially when they're acting sanctimonious about it. And I still think the term oriental is more quaint than offensively racist.
So OP had to give the man a history lesson on why the term is offensive to him when the man in the scenario was more than willing to whip out his cellphone and look the word up? Fuck outta here.
That's a problem in and of itself though. If you find something offensive, that you think the majority of people in your community will find offensive, but they're not aware of, I think it's not unreasonable to think you should correct them. Otherwise, it just perpetuates the issue.
Unless you're recognizing that by not educating the person, you'd have no right whatsoever to feel offended.
Education is the best weapon against ignorance, yes.
OP also said they thought he wasn't racist because maybe it was different in England. Which it is.
Maybe discuss that before implying he's racist anyway?
Delta Assault
Member
Oriental really isn't an offensive term to me, it's more just... weird. It's a weird old-fashioned word to use, and you don't really see it much these days. So when it appears, it's like... Huh. That just happened. How odd.
But nothing to get upset about. And I can't take anybody seriously if they try to liken it to the n word. That's patently ridiculous.
But nothing to get upset about. And I can't take anybody seriously if they try to liken it to the n word. That's patently ridiculous.
And there are Asians here saying it is and it isn't. Soooo...?
Same.
Still, mocking him for asking his friends -- people who he personally knows and interacts with on a daily basis and thus a truthful answer from their perspective is expected -- is just as ridiculous as expecting some stranger in a forum to declare it is offensive and expect those strangers to become representative of the community as a whole.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The important thing is, do you take your new knowledge and move forward with it, or do you act like the roommate's dad and try to deny it using your dictionary, which then turns on you so you pull out the "this is what I grew up with so it's ok" defense?
What exactly do you have to lose by accepting that something offends some people and then being careful about how you use it?
What exactly do you have to lose by accepting that something offends some people and then being careful about how you use it?
prelude514
Banned
I was simply throwing 3 more votes in, nothing more. Not trying to say it is or isn't racist.
So every time someone is accused of being racist for using a word they grew up with, which is still perfectly fine to use (and I'm sure he's gone back to his country of origin many times, and thus been exposed to it there), you're just supposed to accept it when it comes from a stranger? You shouldn't be allowed to defend or explain yourself first? How about when someone jumps the gun and likens it to the n word?
You're just supposed to submit and accept it as truth, and repent for ever having used it?
I mean, in this particular case since that's what you're referring to.
It isn't OP's burden to educate the man on the etymology and history of that word. Politely saying "this word is offensive to refer to Asians" should have sufficed. If the man truly cared he would have followed that up with "may I ask why? We use this word pretty casually where I'm from" then OP could have gave him the rundown. But the guy didn't do that. he in fact refered to his phone to find a definition which suited his position instead of looking up why the word maybe considered offensive in the country he's been living in for 30 years.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Do whatever you want.
I don't actually have to deal with that "problem" because I'm not ignorant
That should tell you how much exposure he's had to Asians. Or perhaps he's called other Asians 'Oriental' and they've been fine with it. Plus, we don't know how exactly OP's reaction was when she heard the word, or the tone in which she stated it was offensive. When someone takes an accusing demeanor, your instinctual reaction isn't gonna be "you're right I was wrong please forgive me", it's going to be "what the hell? I'm not [this] or [that]! I'm gonna defend myself!" Especially when you escalate it in the fashion that OP did.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
Your username is flagrant false advertising. Not only are you not a wolf, you're also most certainly not sapient.
OP didn't escalate the situation the man did.
You are really doing the utmost in order to paint OP in the wrong for simply saying that he shouldn't use a word that you and I both know is offensive, with them.
Neither handled it well.
Both were ignorant. The guy of the word's significance in America and the OP of it's use in the UK.
Both could have asked the other, both could have learnt, instead they accuse the other of being politically correct/racist. The implication of racism and comparison to the n word though blew any chance of a reasonable outcome to this.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The situation is coming off as really RiskyChris to me. The whole situation is about how important it is that you were offended rather than the actual intentions of the person you were speaking to. To the point where you feel like insulting him and other people in the thread. It comes off as obnoxious to me, and the confrontational attitude only makes the situation worse than it had to be. It could have been a teachable moment, and an opportunity to enlighten people, but now it's just an ugly argument and some name calling.
And word policing has to be the laziest type of activism there is. As if using a word automatically turns you into David Duke or Hitler, irrespective of intent, as if it were some dark incantation.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
Exchange went something like this, remember I'm paraphrasing.
Him: So where are you from?
Me: Illinois/Michigan
Him: *asks questions to find out where I'm REALLY from*
Me: The Philippines.
Him: Yadda Yadda Yadda Orientals. Oriental people. Oriental culture. What are you studying? Orientals.
Me: Oh that's cool. BTW it's no big deal to me but dude Oriental isn't really the preferred nomenclature, Asian Americans, please.
Him: Oh come off it. Oriental isn't offensive. Political correctness people need to stop being so sensitive faaaaaart soooooounds coming out of my moooooouth
Me: Errrr... Not really. BTW i ain't even mad. I was just saying.
Him: OK Google! Is the word oriental offensive to chinks?
Google: According to Wikipedia, kinda.
Him: It's the word I grew up with. Whatever.
Me: That's the argument racists use when they get caught using the word nigger.
Him: Bullshit. Pip pip you're 'avin' a right piss 'ere ain't cha? Why, if we was back in me old neighborhood the lads and I would 'av given you a good bop o'er the 'ed we would. pip pip
Me: I think I'll be leaving now.
Him: So where are you from?
Me: Illinois/Michigan
Him: *asks questions to find out where I'm REALLY from*
Me: The Philippines.
Him: Yadda Yadda Yadda Orientals. Oriental people. Oriental culture. What are you studying? Orientals.
Me: Oh that's cool. BTW it's no big deal to me but dude Oriental isn't really the preferred nomenclature, Asian Americans, please.
Him: Oh come off it. Oriental isn't offensive. Political correctness people need to stop being so sensitive faaaaaart soooooounds coming out of my moooooouth
Me: Errrr... Not really. BTW i ain't even mad. I was just saying.
Him: OK Google! Is the word oriental offensive to chinks?
Google: According to Wikipedia, kinda.
Him: It's the word I grew up with. Whatever.
Me: That's the argument racists use when they get caught using the word nigger.
Him: Bullshit. Pip pip you're 'avin' a right piss 'ere ain't cha? Why, if we was back in me old neighborhood the lads and I would 'av given you a good bop o'er the 'ed we would. pip pip
Me: I think I'll be leaving now.
I feel OP was in the wrong for comparing it to the N word. That's about it though. That, to me, is escalating it.
My issue is with everyone else that is making this such a black and white issue while ignoring all the grays. I also take issue with people not willing to educate someone when they clearly simply did not know about it.
By the way, OP is female. She's stated this several times, yo.
I will lose words that I shouldn't have to lose, and slippery slope I will lose all the words and then nothing will mean anything anymore. And I will also lose the privilege of telling people they are overreacting and wrong for being offended.
edit: Going even one step further in talking to him after he complains about 'political correctness', I give my hat to the OP. I would've just slagged off the entire situation, saved myself the headache of 'mutual exchange of ideas', something I'm sure despite his words he was very interested in.
I was mocking him? I was just wondering what his point was. lol
I've seen people bring up their friends being fine with something as if to dismiss or lessen whatever the something is. He replied later that he wasn't trying to infer anything, so ok.
I don't think it's really racist, but I wouldn't like to be called oriental.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
"If a woman says something is sexist, believe her" _ Feminist Professor Pamela Clark
"If a minority says you're being racially insensitive towards him/her, believe him/her." _NeoGAF (Junior) Member Johnny Cage in the Showa
You should've just fucked with him by continuing with that statement and said "Actually the correct term is 'Chinawoman' so if you could please go ahead and call me Chinawoman instead of 'Oriental' from now on, I'd appreciate it."
Then just paused in silence and given him the blankest stare into the depths of his confused eyeballs,
He probably would've understood your sarcasm and more importantly your point and (hopefully) shut his yapper.
"If a minority says you're being racially insensitive towards him/her, believe him/her." _NeoGAF (Junior) Member Johnny Cage in the Showa
You should've just fucked with him by continuing with that statement and said "Actually the correct term is 'Chinawoman' so if you could please go ahead and call me Chinawoman instead of 'Oriental' from now on, I'd appreciate it."
Then just paused in silence and given him the blankest stare into the depths of his confused eyeballs,
He probably would've understood your sarcasm and more importantly your point and (hopefully) shut his yapper.
I edited my post with gender neutral pronouns as I wasn't sure.
OP didn't compare the word orient to the n word. What she did was say that the defense of "I grew up with this word and you and your political correctness ain't gonna never take it from me" is what racist individuals use to defend their usage of the n-word. The dude was in the wrong. Full stop. He felt some kinda way about being told he shouldn't use that word and I bet the outcome would have been the same if she took the time to explain why the word is offensive. Not that she at all had too.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
In some parts of the world and even the US, "Oriental" isn't an offensive word. Generally speaking, on the list of bad things to call other people, "Oriental" is nowhere near stuff like 'nigger', 'chink', 'jap', 'wetback', etc. but that's not an excuse to purposefully use it in the presence of people who are bothered by it in order to take a stand on free speech or whatever.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
I want someone to change my username to "Noob Saibot in the Closet" and then my avatar will just be a black rectangle.
Black Republican
Member
yikes, what type of job is it bruh?
Wait wait. Mulato is offensive now? Wtf
Doesn't it mean the guy who has mixed parents? Like Cuban guys?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
where've you been
mulatto has been out for a grip
I'm waiting for someone to say in a few pages that they rock octaroon
Sorry, I suppose that should've been aimed more at Labor than at you. It seemed to me that you were echoing what he said, so I apologize if that wasn't the case.
In general, what I said still stands, though.
It's used in Spain by Cuban guys to define themselves. Not offensive at all. What is the origin of it being offensive?
Mulato was always offensive in America . It means a person who has a black and white parents. The word comes from the Portuguese word for mule.
As a British person, I find this hilarious for some reason
I cringe whenever I see someone pull the old "where are you from" question though, especially when 99% of the time it's "down the road"
But it's just shorthand for Japanese! Is that not an accurate indication of where they are from, geographically? Some people might just want to save themselves the trouble of saying the full word. Why would someone be offended by that, I can't think of anything from my knowledgebase as to why that would be offensive/I have Asian friends who are cool with it/political correctness is ruining our country.
Winter John
Member
Here in the U.K I've really only ever heard oriental used when people are talking about the region. I've heard people use oriental cuisine a few times, and obviously there's the Orient express, but it's been a long, long time since I heard it used when people were referring to chinese people. Had no idea it was even considered racist. Is this a new thing?
For the life of me I can't fathom why Oriental would be more racist than Asian, when they mean more or less the same thing (a general place description) and are both terms that (most likely) originated in the West. Or OP must prefer Greeks over French.
It is an antiquated term though (who still calls people that?), so OP could've told the guy to get with the times yo.
In any case, I do agree the guy was a dick to call OP a pussy (team America quote).
It is an antiquated term though (who still calls people that?), so OP could've told the guy to get with the times yo.
In any case, I do agree the guy was a dick to call OP a pussy (team America quote).
It's not generally considered offensive in the UK, it certainly is in the US.
Probably partly to do with "Asian" generally referring to the Indian Subcontinent/South-East Asia here.
way more
Member
Why can't a person just accept they said an offensive word? This old bitch has to drag out the dictionary to prove that he's right and then gets mad when he's wrong? Shit, someone says don't call me a molly-whumper Boo-Boo I don't try to reason my way out. Fine, I won't call you that word anymore.
People really get fucking upset when you inform them a derogatory word is just that.
People really get fucking upset when you inform them a derogatory word is just that.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Oriental sounds old fashioned, but I never thought if it as a racist word. Have never heard of anyone being offended by it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It's all in the historical context. 'Jap' was always used primarily as a slur, and with very negative connotations. 'Oriental' doesn't have the same amount of hatefulness in its origins and historical usage. As far as I know, there isn't any region where 'Jap' is acceptable in polite conversation.
fake edit: I guess you're being sarcastic and don't actually believe that.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Wait... Oriental is offensive? I'm Asian and I don't know this.
It is in the US, it isn't in Europe iirc.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This thread actually makes me wonder what words are racist in the UK.
There have to be some good ones...
There have to be some good ones...
I've probably used oriental, but tend to opt for Asian I suppose when country of origin is unknown. Though I probably try to guess at the country but probably would end up cause more offence with that.
On the subject of "Jap" being offensive, I'm assuming nobody uses "Japs eye" any more?
On the subject of "Jap" being offensive, I'm assuming nobody uses "Japs eye" any more?
Call someone a golliwog in the UK and you're a dead man.
I'm not from the UK, but I'm pretty sure Paki is a slur. I have never heard Paki used in a positive context at least.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Me neither.
Delta Assault
Member
I'm no linguist or historian, but I suspect it comes from the fact that "The Orient" used to be seen as this strange and exotic and perhaps backwards region of the world. And as time passed and the region became better understood and known as "Asia," calling someone Oriental conjured up this old fashioned and outdated notion of The Orient that was a mishmash of Western imperialist views. So it was an outdated term. And using an outdated term could cause an Asian person to feel offense, because they would instinctively feel that that person using the term was stubbornly holding onto this antiquated and colonial view of their place of origin.
But that's just my theory. Like I said, I ain't no linguist or historian.
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