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Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]

Where do you stand on the issue of Scottish independence?

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Ashes said:
I don't see why the UK would keep their nuclear arsenal in Scotland. Especially since nationalists have tried to get rid of trident for quite a while now. I think it's one of the positives for the 'Yes' campaign. And this will probably be done within a decade or two.

Aside from that, on the whole defence spending front, I do think Scotland stands to lose long term. When it comes to defence spending, the UK will take into its fold a lot of contracts sourced to Scotland purely as a security measure. That's why some in Scottish defence industry have been a bit upset. They'd still be able to get the international contracts though. Or at least bid for them.

And they will lower their own defence budget of course - there are significant savings to be had there. So overall, bad for the economy good for the budget.

edit: I should add that the last line is for Scotland. The UK loses substantially more than Scotland in my view.
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International contracts would be tricky for iScotland's defence industry, but not impossible. You'd need a long term stream of orders to prevent decay, and there's a lack of nations looking to buy frigates right now. There's also the problem of putting together a decent package for orders. The rUK, US or even France can tie an order together with advanced training for the ships and systems being sold, as well as broader defence agreements. That's not something iScotland can really offer at the moment.
 
Hot Coldman said:
Didn't see this posted: livestream from protest outside BBC Glasgow

kind of fucked up, their reporting on the referendum
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That's a pretty impressive amount of people.

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I work at an office which is based right next to BBC Scotland headquarters and there's a huge protest by the YES campaign because they have been so incredibly biased. I went out on my fifteen minute break to get some footage, it was great.

Edit; you guys are already talking about it. Awesome!
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
Hammer on one side?

I personally resent the fact that I and the people who remain in the UK will have to deal with the fallout from all of this but yet get no vote. I know you don't give a flying fuck about that but I bloody well do.

If the UK gets dragged into anything that is detrimental to the lives of it's citizens then I'm going to hazard a guess and say there will be some deep seated resentment toward Scotland.

So yes, I absolutely detest the empty promises Salmond and co are making to ensure a yes vote because many of them are not his to make.
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In Shocking News today, citizens of other countries don't get to vote on Scottish Independence and Scottish First Minister campaigns for best outcome for Independent Scotland.
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
It is correct that nothing you or the yes campaign could say on the issue of the currency union (for example) would please me.

Remember: Salmond is promising you everything but for us south of the border? He's making demands of us that we don't have to satisfy. And contrary to what he's saying it is not in the UK's best interest to engage in a currency union, and as for his threat of not paying Scotland's share of the debt: That'll count as a default and negatively affect your nation's international credit rating.

Empty promises and baseless threats.

No fucking way will I willingly put my future, or my country's financial future on the line to ensure that man's legacy.

Incidentally, why the hell is up to the UK to tell Scotland that they don't want to control the financial heart of their country? It's completely backwards.
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For the stability of the pound, short term, it definitely is. Long term... not so much. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

For Scotland's sake, I hope the yes campaign's legal experts are as sure as they claim to be about Scotland's involvement in the EU. The UK, I believe, will be on Scotland's side, and will want the article 48 route...[even if they aren't saying as much now] but even with that, I'm not sure it is as guaranteed as Scotland's yes campaign has said to the electorate.

Article 49 route would be a politically and economically er not so great.
 
AGoodODST said:
In Shocking News today, citizens of other countries don't get to vote on Scottish Independence and Scottish First Minister campaigns for best outcome for Independent Scotland.
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The pound is backed by the British tax payers (the coins and notes are meaningless with the value attached to it). You will not be British. That means people like me will have to put our futures on the line when propping up your economy. Salmond has demanded that I - and other UK citizens - do that.

The audacity of it is staggering.

If that requirement is dropped then I won't be against independence.
 
Ashes said:
For the stability of the pound, short term, it definitely is. Long term... not so much. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

For Scotland's sake, I hope the yes campaign's legal experts are as sure as they claim to be about Scotland's involvement in the EU. The UK, I believe, will be on Scotland's side, and will want the article 48 route...[even if they aren't saying as much now] but even with that, I'm not sure it is as guaranteed as Scotland's yes campaign has said to the electorate.

Article 49 route would be a politically and economically er not so great.
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This Art 48/49 question has been asked and answered:

20 March 2014 - letter from European Commission to Christina McKelvie (Scottish Parliament's European and External Relations Committee):

Dear Ms McKelvie,

Thank you for your letter of 10 March 2014. The European Union has been established by the relevant treaties among the Member States. The Commission, as the guardian of those treaties, is responsible for overseeing their implementation, including the implementation of provisions related to the accession of any European State to the Union.

The Commission's position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of occasions since 2004. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.

Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously after
consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, an agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission
entails. This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.
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I live around the corner from the BBC building and the turnout is incredible. The media bias, especially towards the Buchanan street gathering, is sickening.
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
Here's the thing about that: It is Alex Salmond who is obfuscating the financial realities of an independent Scotland by hiding it behind a veil of nationalistic hyperbole. To the pro-Union people that is vile because Salmond knows all of that stuff (he teaches economics) but refuses to discuss it or explain the full consequences of independence to the people he's supposed to represent.

He'd know he'd lose if he put out the reality of it all for everyone to see so he chose to spin only the hopeful aspects of it in order to get his foot in the door. But I don't blame the Scottish people for it. If I was Scottish I'd probably end up on the yes side because I'd grasp any chance to alleviate myself of the cynicism that comes from the usual empty promises and lies that accompany politicians.

But sadly any chance to break through that barrier results in the "scaremongering" accusation. It is almost as if people in Scotland adamantly think that everything will change, but at the same time nothing will (the institutions they know and love).

To me it is astonishing that I have to go out of my way to try and present these facts to people who want nothing to do with me, all in order to prevent Salmond from leading them down into an economic abyss (the kind of thing that financial experts the world over have warned about).
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Not sure how this has anything to do with the accusation that the Yes side are a bunch of bullies who hate the English. Did you quote the wrong post?
 
Ashes said:
I'm not sure what to read from that. The yes campaign is still opting to go the article 48 route as of a couple of days ago. Unless, I'm wrong in that supposition...?
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The route they take will not be the Yes campaigns decision, that will rest solely with the EU.
 
Ashes said:
I'm not sure what to read from that. The yes campaign is still opting to go the article 48 route as of a couple of days ago. Unless, I'm wrong in that supposition...?
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I'm sure they'll be seen trying but they'll be told it doesn't apply. But as you can see from that letter, they already know that.
 
Hollywood Duo said:
How's it looking? I saw numbers a week ago that polls were split. As an outsider I find this whole thing fascinating.
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Yes support in the last eight polls, excluding don't knows.

ICM (online) 54%
Panelbase (online) 49%
ICM (phone) 49%
TNS (face to face) 49%
YouGov (online) 48%
Opinium (online) 47%
Survation (online) 47%
Survation (phone) 46%
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funkypie said:
no substance, just sarcasm. good response.
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Well, your post probably was one of the most vetriolic in this whole thread. Anti-Englishness does exist in Scotland and to some degree it is the 'wee man syndrome', but English people are very rarely victimised in Scotland to a serious degree. Certainly not to the extent that say Muslims can be in Scotland or England.
 
EdibleExplosives said:
Ooookay then.



Say something dumb and prepare to get a dumb fucking response. Don't come into a thread and spew a bunch of uninformed nonsense about the Yes campaign hating the English with nothing to back it up, and then expect to be taken seriously.
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why are all those scottish celebrities getting death threats and abuse for saying No. Why did that poor woman who had a disabled child get Yes campaigners at her stood step just because she said no. One of alex salmons special advisors had lied and said she was a daughter of a labour politician which turned out to be bollocks, but even if it was true it does not give these idiots activists the right to turn up at her door step 'protesting' because she said no to independence. That special advisor was allowed to keep his job btw.

Why aren't all the No campaigners giving abuse and death threats to celebrity Yes campaigners. Why are scots so scared to say No in interviews and lower their voices when they do pluck up the courage to say No? because they see how they are being treated, like traitors.

If the Yes campaign had been cordial I wouldn't be saying this.

of course the establishment has been using some scaremongering tactics, people in power will do what they do to keep that power, but this is hardly comparable to the vile abuse been given to scots voting no.

It does not take a genius to read between the lines of the language used by the SNP and its supporters either. Constant blame and name dropping of london and westminster for all of scotsland problems which is their code for 'the english'.
 
funkypie said:
why are all those scottish celebrities getting death threats and abuse for saying No. Why did that poor woman who had a disabled child get Yes campaigners at her stood step just because she said no. One of alex salmons special advisors had lied and said she was a daughter of a labour politician which turned out to be bollocks, but even if it was true it does not give these idiots activists the right to turn up at her door step 'protesting' because she said no to independence. That special advisor was allowed to keep his job btw.

Why aren't all the No campaigners giving abuse and death threats to celebrity Yes campaigners. Why are scots so scared to say No in interviews and lower their voices when they do pluck up the courage to say No? because they see how they are being treated, like traitors.

If the Yes campaign had been cordial I wouldn't be saying this.

of course the establishment has been using some scaremongering tactics, people in power will do what they do to keep that power, but this is hardly comparable to the vile abuse been given to scots voting no.

It does not take a genius to read between the lines of the language used by the SNP and its supporters either. Constant blame and name dropping of london and westminster for all of scotsland problems which is their code for 'the english'.
Click to expand...

London and Westminster are problems for all of the UK. It's not code and never has been. If London and Westminster were properly balancing law and finance there wouldn't even be a vote this week.

When people say London and Westminster, they mean that institution itself.
 
Sage00 said:
You now hold the record for two of the most ignorant, uninformed posts in the thread. Care to go for the treble? Or were you not afforded education (or perhaps prescription medicine) since you didn't have a 'pointless' parliament to make it available to you?
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I think he just has
 
funkypie said:
why are all those scottish celebrities getting death threats and abuse for saying No. Why did that poor woman who had a disabled child get Yes campaigners at her stood step just because she said no. One of alex salmons special advisors had lied and said she was a daughter of a labour politician which turned out to be bollocks, but even if it was true it does not give these idiots activists the right to turn up at her door step 'protesting' because she said no to independence. That special advisor was allowed to keep his job btw.

Why aren't all the No campaigners giving abuse and death threats to celebrity Yes campaigners. Why are scots so scared to say No in interviews and lower their voices when they do pluck up the courage to say No? because they see how they are being treated, like traitors.

If the Yes campaign had been cordial I wouldn't be saying this.

of course the establishment has been using some scaremongering tactics, people in power will do what they do to keep that power, but this is hardly comparable to the vile abuse been given to scots voting no.

It does not take a genius to read between the lines of the language used by the SNP and its supporters either. Constant blame and name dropping of london and westminster for all of scotsland problems which is their code for 'the english'.
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I think you have a career at the BBC ahead of you.
 
funkypie said:
why are all those scottish celebrities getting death threats and abuse for saying No. Why did that poor woman who had a disabled child get Yes campaigners at her stood step just because she said no. One of alex salmons special advisors had lied and said she was a daughter of a labour politician which turned out to be bollocks, but even if it was true it does not give these idiots activists the right to turn up at her door step 'protesting' because she said no to independence. That special advisor was allowed to keep his job btw.

Why aren't all the No campaigners giving abuse and death threats to celebrity Yes campaigners. Why are scots so scared to say No in interviews and lower their voices when they do pluck up the courage to say No? because they see how they are being treated, like traitors.

If the Yes campaign had been cordial I wouldn't be saying this.

of course the establishment has been using some scaremongering tactics, people in power will do what they do to keep that power, but this is hardly comparable to the vile abuse been given to scots voting no.

It does not take a genius to read between the lines of the language used by the SNP and its supporters either. Constant blame and name dropping of london and westminster for all of scotsland problems which is their code for 'the english'.
Click to expand...


The poor woman with a disabled child is presumably Clare Lally, who is a member of the Scottish Labour Party shadow cabinet but was being touted as an ordinary voter. The call of relationship to Pat Lally was an unfortunate one, but understandable in the circumstance.

As to vile abuse, let me introduce you to Britnatabusebot : https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot
 
funkypie said:
why are all those scottish celebrities getting death threats and abuse for saying No. Why did that poor woman who had a disabled child get Yes campaigners at her stood step just because she said no. One of alex salmons special advisors had lied and said she was a daughter of a labour politician which turned out to be bollocks, but even if it was true it does not give these idiots activists the right to turn up at her door step 'protesting' because she said no to independence. That special advisor was allowed to keep his job btw.

Why aren't all the No campaigners giving abuse and death threats to celebrity Yes campaigners. Why are scots so scared to say No in interviews and lower their voices when they do pluck up the courage to say No? because they see how they are being treated, like traitors.

If the Yes campaign had been cordial I wouldn't be saying this.

of course the establishment has been using some scaremongering tactics, people in power will do what they do to keep that power, but this is hardly comparable to the vile abuse been given to scots voting no.

It does not take a genius to read between the lines of the language used by the SNP and its supporters either. Constant blame and name dropping of london and westminster for all of scotsland problems which is their code for 'the english'.
Click to expand...

There are idiots on both sides, you're completely ignoring the No voters doing the exact same things. Alex Salmond has had death threats, Yes supporters have been assaulted, there has been disgusting acts on both sides.
The 'Westminister name dropping' does not = the English at all, if you understood anything about this, you'd realise that.

But those poor imaginative Scottish celebrities that have to lower their voice and made to look like a traitor :( what are you even on about? What about the 'Yes' side being made out to be traitors of the UK, such as the guilt tripping of soldiers deaths in the Telegraph?

Your original post was pure ignorance and you're digging yourself a deeper hole with each response.
 
funkypie said:
I gave example of how the yes campaigners have acted compared to the no campaigners and you or the other haven't refuted it, good job.
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You mean like, for example, when a No campaigner kicked a pregnant woman in the stomache? When someone tried to run Salmond off the road, not only putting his life at risk but those of other motorists?

There is bullshit (and lots of good) on both sides.
 
8bit said:
The poor woman with a disabled child is presumably Clare Lally, who is a member of the Scottish Labour Party shadow cabinet but was being touted as an ordinary voter. The call of relationship to Pat Lally was an unfortunate one, but understandable in the circumstance.

As to vile abuse, let me introduce you to Britnatabusebot : https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot
Click to expand...

I find it laughable you would call it understandable under the circumstances. Even if it were true, it would still be wrong. Are the No activists targeting salmons home?

and you direct me to a twitter feed. People saying fuck off etc on twitter is hardly directly targeting SNP members or yes campaigners with abuse and death treats.

has alan cumming been sent death treats? poor andy murray is clearly shit scared to come out and say he supports No because of the abuse he will get.

you're not making a good case that the no campaign supporters are as horrid as the yes campaign. Which was the whole point of my initial post, i'm not arguing the pros and cons of independence, just that how the yes campaign has acted like bullies and why I would like to see them win and lose at the same time.
 
EdibleExplosives said:
There are idiots on both sides, you're completely ignoring the No voters doing the exact same things. Alex Salmond has had death threats, Yes supporters have been assaulted, there has been disgusting acts on both sides.
The 'Westminister name dropping' does not = the English at all, if you understood anything about this, you'd realise that.

But those poor imaginative Scottish celebrities that have to lower their voice and made to look like a traitor :( what are you even on about? What about the 'Yes' side being made out to be traitors of the UK, such as the guilt tripping of soldiers deaths in the Telegraph?

Your original post was pure ignorance and you're digging yourself a deeper hole with each response.
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what imaginary scottish celebrities? chris hoy is probably one of the biggest examples. J. K. Rowling another, although she might not be scottish, she lives in scotland and got a ton of abuse.
 
Outsider here.

I feel an independent Scotland will be more isolated from international affairs, especially related to security matters, and it would leave a weakened rUK to shoulder these responsibilities.

So I'm rooting for a "No" vote to win based on security issues. Right now, however, I think the Yes vote will win.
 
funkypie said:
what imaginary scottish celebrities? chris hoy is probably one of the biggest examples. J. K. Rowling another, although she might not be scottish, she lives in scotland and got a ton of abuse.
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I was mainly referring to those who are too scared to voice their support of No. But do ignore the rest of my post about how there are a minority of dickheads on both sides.

I don't understand how you can accuse the Yes side of being 'vile bullies' (and act like it's the majority rather than the minority), but totally ignore the No side doing the exact same thing.
 
Questioning the press is as important and healthy as a free press and Robinson i fell was misrepresenting and bigging his role up.
 
I had my Yes badge ripped off my shirt yesterday, and was shoved in the street; not exactly awful things but still far from civil. There are idiots everywhere, when people are invested in something as much as this referendum. Just gotta take it on the chin.
 
The polls show it's going to be a close one, it will really come down to, which side can be bothered to actually go vote.

I'm nervous that the side I'm not voting for will win... but I'm kinda excited to see the result now. Just due to all these polls.
 
abunai said:
I had my Yes badge ripped off my shirt yesterday, and was shoved in the street; not exactly awful things but still far from civil. There are idiots everywhere, when people are invested in something as much as this referendum. Just gotta take it on the chin.
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Where was this?
 
Rubenov said:
Outsider here.

I feel an independent Scotland will be more isolated from international affairs, especially related to security matters, and it would leave a weakened rUK to shoulder these responsibilities.

So I'm rooting for a "No" vote to win based on security issues. Right now, however, I think the Yes vote will win.
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Wouldn't that be a blessing?
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
It is correct that nothing you or the yes campaign could say on the issue of the currency union (for example) would please me.

Remember: Salmond is promising you everything but for us south of the border? He's making demands of us that we don't have to satisfy. And contrary to what he's saying it is not in the UK's best interest to engage in a currency union, and as for his threat of not paying Scotland's share of the debt: That'll count as a default and negatively affect your nation's international credit rating.

Empty promises and baseless threats.

No fucking way will I willingly put my future, or my country's financial future on the line to ensure that man's legacy.

Incidentally, why the hell is up to the UK to tell Scotland that they don't want to control the financial heart of their country? It's completely backwards. How people in Scotland aren't put off by the idea of Scotland having less control over their finances than they do now... I don't think I can fully grasp that.
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You're kinda starting to lose the plot. I actually 100% understand the NO vote. I don't resent it. I respect it, in fact. It's a fence I simply happen to fall on the other side of, but you're taking this process personally. It's politics.
 
How are you more isolated on international affairs, by being independent? Makes no sense.
 
Stinkles said:
You're kinda starting to lose the plot. I actually 100% understand the NO vote. I don't resent it. I respect it, in fact. It's a fence I simply happen to fall on the other side of, but you're taking this process personally. It's politics.
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I wrote this in the eventuality of Scottish independence but it is relevant now:

I will not support the currency union as promised by Alex Salmond.

He not only demanded it from Britain but promised it to the Scottish public. However the British pound is more than metal and paper, it is something that is backed by the British tax payers. Alex Salmond was completely in the wrong to demand that the British public take the risk of securing Scotland’s financial system without the prior approval of the people that make it worth having.

Not only is it theoretically risky but Alex Salmond and the SNP have made it clear that the “pound is a millstone around Scotland’s neck and that an independent Scotland would adopt the Euro”. They have outright admitted that they would drop the pound (and let the value of it fall) at their earliest convenience which makes establishing a currency union with an independent Scotland a ridiculous proposition.

A currency union was never a foregone conclusion and the SNP should never have deceived the Scottish public into believing it was. For the reason outlined earlier I cannot in good conscience support any political party that agrees to their demands.
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The yes voters are caught up in the emotional furore of it like the Democrats were in the USA with Obama, which is why I get that they aren't thinking logically about the ins and outs of the proposed financial system. But "we'll just work it out later" is not good enough for the people who are affected by it (or at least who Salmond promises will be) and who won't feel any benefit from any proposed political changes.
 
funkypie said:
I find it laughable you would call it understandable under the circumstances. Even if it were true, it would still be wrong. Are the No activists targeting salmons home?

and you direct me to a twitter feed. People saying fuck off etc on twitter is hardly directly targeting SNP members or yes campaigners with abuse and death treats.

has alan cumming been sent death treats? poor andy murray is clearly shit scared to come out and say he supports No because of the abuse he will get.

you're not making a good case that the no campaign supporters are as horrid as the yes campaign. Which was the whole point of my initial post, i'm not arguing the pros and cons of independence, just that how the yes campaign has acted like bullies and why I would like to see them win and lose at the same time.
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You should have been in Edinburgh during the Orange March. You would have seen some of your crowd there. I have been in Glasgow when the Orange March was on and it was hands down the most negative and beligerent march I have seen. I am not in anway saying all Orange Marchers are such, but lots of yobs in there.
 
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