Let's talk about controllers

This is the greatest controller ever made:
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Frankly, I shouldn't even have to explain why, but I will. The control stick? Perfect. Big ass A button so even stupid developers wouldn't forget where to put the input most common to their game? Perfect. B button placement for "special" inputs? Perfect. X and Y buttons for those occasional actions games need to preform? Perfect. Shoulder buttons, that provide a puuuuurfect amount of resistance as you press down, and then click when you press them down completely? Perfect. Really, the only thing you can fault the GameCube controller for is (1) not having click sticks, (2) not having a ZL button, and (3) not having another full control stick (instead of the C stick). Other than that, the controller is fucking perfect. Nintendo should have never deviated from it, just made those 3 improvements, stick a Li Battery in the Wavebird for the Wii, and called it a fucking day. The Wii U pro controller is pretty damn good, but its no GameCube controller.

Edit: (4) They should've also made the D-Pad bigger. Also, I know pointing out all these faults kind of hurts my argument that its the greatest controller ever made, but its everything it does right in spite of that, that makes it the greatest. A fantastic controller that has never been equaled.
 
The quirkiness was The Secret Sauce

It messed with my brains minor OCD a bit too heavily lol. Asymmetric sticks bothers me enough as is, but asymmetric and different is just..... errrgg...

The quirkiness was The Secret Sauce

It is also the only controller that was proven to withstand the pressure of two elephants standing on it at one time, it was the only controller ever witnessed to make it out of a meatgrinder unscathed (save for a few scratches), and it is also the only controller compatible with super smash brothers

I'd definitely give it that, I had that controller ripped out of my hands so many times by cord trippers, never an issue in sight lol.

Maybe I would have liked it more if it had two nipples on it, I dunno. Either way I wasn't terribly fond of the analog stick on it, it felt a bit too short, and I feel that fine movement was much harder than it needed to be.
 
I haven't put my hands on the DS4 yet, but the simple fact that it doesn't have official drivers for the PC pretty much puts it out of the running by default. I also haven't heard amazing things about the touchpad (it's barely used, apparently?).

The XB1 controller, on the other hand, is definitely a major improvement over the X360's, which itself was already a really good controller. I'm using it on my PC right now and it is just wonderful. I still think the right analog stick should be replaced with a touchpad ala the Steam controller (seriously, it is awful for aiming, even with the greater precision), and the bumpers are a little weird, but other than those little niggles it's quite a nice controller, indeed.
 
I haven't put my hands on the DS4 yet, but the simple fact that it doesn't have official drivers for the PC pretty much puts it out of the running by default. I also haven't heard amazing things about the touchpad (it's barely used, apparently?).

The XB1 controller, on the other hand, is definitely a major improvement over the X360's, which itself was already a really good controller. I'm using it on my PC right now and it is just wonderful. I still think the right analog stick should be replaced with a touchpad ala the Steam controller (seriously, it is awful for aiming, even with the greater precision), and the bumpers are a little weird, but other than those little niggles it's quite a nice controller, indeed.

Pssh official drivers are for official people :P I am really interested in the DS4/X1 (mainly the DS4). I know the X360 controller was GOAT level, but I can't tell if the reception of the new controllers is just early hype or if they are really GOAT or what

Maybe I would have liked it more if it had two nipples on it, I dunno.

PSO, anyone? lol

OK now we're talking

Oh and (i know OP rules are official controllers only) but had to share, check these out

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Gamecube DS Controller MOD

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Best: DS4, as it's closer to the DS2 than the DS3.

Duelshock 2 was execellent in my opinion, and then the new spongy triggers on the Duelshock 3 ruined it then back to greatness with 4.

Mediocre: Xbox / Xbox 360, the original was ridiculous, and this is personal preference, but I just cannot stand the Xbox D-Pad or the feel of the Analog Sticks, for FPS games it does have better triggers though.

Worst: Nokia N-Gage (I guess it counts as a controller as well as a system right?) That thing was just terrible, uncomfortable, small, and poorly designed, removing the back and the battery to change game...?
 
I've always reaaally wanted to try that. I wonder how BioShock infinite is with it

Haven't tried Bioshock Infinite, didn't even know that was compatible. But I played Killzone 3 with this
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That was pretty neat (after adjusting the sensitivity so I could stop spinning constantly).
In the end though, stuff like this is fun occasionally, so it's a nice option. But I'm also glad that not many games require it.
 
I'm gonna point out that how the N64 controller was designed, and how it ended up being used, are two different things. It was designed with the idea that 2D gaming was still gonna be big, so the controller is set up such that both Dpad AND control stick were primary. It just happens that the Playstation's afterthought of a design ended up becoming the de facto standard.
 
Best= WiiU Pro Controller, X1 Controller, SNES Controller

Worst=DS1-4 for 3D Gaming (I fucking hate where the left stick is, My hand hurts after 30 minutes of playing) and Original XB Controller.
 
I thought the 360 controller could not be bettered, but after using the Xbox One contoller for a week (Tier 2 country), I absolutely love it. Everything (triggers, sticks, d-pad) feels so precise, and it fit my hands from the first seconds. And I love the rumble in the triggers (in Forza).
 
Haven't tried Bioshock Infinite, didn't even know that was compatible. But I played Killzone 3 with this
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That was pretty neat (after adjusting the sensitivity so I could stop spinning constantly).
In the end though, stuff like this is fun occasionally, so it's a nice option. But I'm also glad that not many games require it.

This controller was bad ass. I loved killzone with it and was upset when no Point Blank Hd was released.... Or announced... Damn it I want that so badly, lightgun games were bad ass, the blue gun on the Saturn was great... The ps one had a grey one that wasn't as fun to look at
 
I also don't like when the analog stick is located above the D-pad. When I'm skimming through menu's, I naturally want to work from the top down, so down on the d-pad, being so close to my thumb is something I greatly appreciate, I find that the distance between the analog stick, and down on the d-pad on the 360 and X1 pad is un-natural.

The Dualshock 4 is almost there I feel. If only it could nail the ergonomics that microsoft had with the 360's pad, minus it's horrible shortcomings, it would be perfect in my opinion.
 
Best= WiiU Pro Controller, X1 Controller, SNES Controller

Worst=DS1-4 for 3D Gaming (I fucking hate where the left stick is, My hand hurts after 30 minutes of playing) and Original XB Controller.

I wonder why people say this. Is it just anatomical, like different hands on different people?

I mean for me it's the opposite. Whenever I tried playing halo or gears or whatever on xbox I would just rage at those asymmetrical sticks.

For me having sticks in different places on the controller is the most uncomfortable and idiot thing ever introduced in gaming.
 
I wonder why people say this. Is it just anatomical, like different hands on different people?

I mean for me it's the opposite. Whenever I tried playing halo or gears or whatever on xbox I would just rage at those asymmetrical sticks.

For me having sticks in different places on the controller is the most uncomfortable and idiot thing ever introduced in gaming.

That's my opinion as well. It makes no sense to me. If anything, it's the ergonomics of the controller that determine the comfort of the sticks, not the placement.

The way the Dualshocks are designed, is so that your thumb approaches the sticks from a 45 degree angle, making horizontal, or vertical movement easy. I feel like with the 360's design, the left thumbstick is only good for up and down movement, and the right stick is only good for horizontal movement.

Plus it's a complete non-issue, but during loading screens, I'm constantly doing weird patterns on the analog sticks, both one direction, one up, one down, etc etc. Having them be on the same level eases my mind lol.
 
In my opinion the Wii U Pro is the best traditional controller on the market for Nintendo and action games. Those digital triggers are gonna be magic once Bayonetta 2 comes out.

Overall it just feels beautiful in the hands, has a light feel while not feeling completely cheap. Also its battery life is godlike.

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As far as strictly 2D games go I really enjoy my Sega Saturn pad.

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This is the one I have.

Also I recently picked up a mint green (Symphonic Green) Gamecube controller and I've been playing Metal Gear Rising: Revengence on Steam with it using an Xbox 360 controller emulator. This is my oddball controller I use when I'm feeling it. Also I got it for Smash Bros when they announced the Wii U Gamecube Adapter.

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These three controllers are my current weapons of choice at the moment.

What is that Sega playstation controller? How is that possible?
 
Eff the rules, I just gotta talk about this baby!

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Hori Gem Pad EX (360)

This thing is tiny, about 20% smaller than the official 360 pad which is perfect for my small hands, the sticks are made of a hard plastic, instead of some rubbery crap that smoothens out and wears away after months of use, nice concave design too, and the distance required to push the control sticks all the way in each direction is much further than the official 360 pad, so pressure sensitive movement is way easier. D-pad is godly, miles better than the official controller, it's the key difference that makes me prefer this pad more, flawless for fighting games and 2D games. And the triggers and bumpers are on the same level, are flatter, and are non-analogue which I prefer for most games and they feel fantastic, no squeaking or creaking like the 360 pads triggers and bumpers get after a ton of use. Even has a control stick sensitivity switch in the middle that doubles the turning speed of the right stick, and the acceleration of the left one. The facebuttons are also way less mushy than the 360 buttons, closer together too which helps a ton with fighting games.

Sure it isn't great for driving games that require analogue triggers, but for everything else, this pad is easily the best out there in my opinion. It even lights up when plugged in too! And it has PC drivers built in.

As for official pads? It's got to be...

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God-tier pad. If it wasn't for the Gem pad this'd easily take the top spot. Just feels great, and that amazing battery life shits all over the competition.
 
What is that Sega playstation controller? How is that possible?

There was a pretty limited run of Sega Saturn pad controllers released in Japan.

Mine was the Darkstalkers colored one:
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I bought it mainly because there are so many PS2 converters out there so I use it for other systems and of course the PC.

They made some rare USB ones too. I was lucky to pick this pad up on the SRK forums a while back.
 
I also think people give the GC controller way too much love. The click of the triggers, the tiny dpad, the fake right analog stick and that god awful Z button. Jesus.
 
I also think people give the GC controller way too much love. The click of the triggers, the tiny dpad, the fake right analog stick and that god awful Z button. Jesus.

I don't think a lot of people think it's necessarily the best controller (especially for games now), but it was rather unique and it does have a glove like charm about it. And as someone mentioned before it did always function beautifully with the Gamecube itself. It's definitely flawed but there's really no other controller quite like it.

Playing MGR: Revengence with it plays like a dream. I wish I could upload some footage.
 
Best
Dual Shock 2.
Just fantastic all around. Even loved the flat triggers with my PES games.


2nd Best
Wii Remote.


Loved the feel of the Xbox Controller S too, while the current Xbox One controller is aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.

My impression of Dual Shock 4 isn't too good so far. I don't like that it got bulkier, even though I have big hands, and the build quality is real bad. The sticks is wearing off, the light bar can't be turned off and the triggers can be squeaky. Even the Share and Options buttons are too far pressed down and the batter life is not acceptable. It's nice with the build-in speaker and the touch pad though.
 
I can't agree with those saying the Dual Shock is the best. It was a big downgrade in comfort and design from the original PlayStation controller, and was less comfortable to use than the N64 controller thanks to having to use it's hacked-on analog sticks that were obviously never meant to be there.

I suppose if you grew up with it or only played 2D games, you would have gotten used to it; but it's the original Homer Simpson controller.
I also think people give the GC controller way too much love. The click of the triggers, the tiny dpad, the fake right analog stick and that god awful Z button. Jesus.

The triggers are one of the greatest things about the controller, it's a shame no controller adapted it until Valve's Steam controller. Being both digital and analog at the same time is the best of both worlds.
 
I'm starting to feel like the only person who had difficulty with the 360's face buttons lol. My fingers would seriously hurt after fairly brief gaming sessions on that thing.

I can't agree with those saying the Dual Shock is the best. It was a big downgrade in comfort and design from the original PlayStation controller, and was less comfortable to use than the N64 controller thanks to having to use it's hacked-on analog sticks that were obviously never meant to be there.

I suppose if you grew up with it or only played 2D games, you would have gotten used to it; but it's the original Homer Simpson controller.

The worst part about them being "hacked on", is that they work so well in that position for so many different genres lol. Camera control mapped to the second analog stick changed gaming in my opinion.
 
I'm starting to feel like the only person who had difficulty with the 360's face buttons lol. My fingers would seriously hurt after fairly brief gaming sessions on that thing.

I don't think the Xbox 360's face buttons where great either. They were especially not good for fighting games, and don't get me going on that d-pad.
 
Best Overall: GameCube Controller
Incredibly comfortable, perfect triggers and wonderful analog stick

Close second and Best Looking : X-Box One controller
Truly perfect analog sticks, finally decent d-pad and very comfortable... too bad for the wrong ABXY layout and too convex buttons.

Best Classic: Super Nintendo PAL version
Superior SuFami face buttons without its supershort cord.

Worst (Usable): DualShock1-3
Left analog in wrong position, disgusting d-pad, stiff triggers (DS1-2) and lolwut shape of L2-R2 (DS3).

Worst (Unusable): Atari 5200
What the heck? Seriouly now...
 
I can't agree with those saying the Dual Shock is the best. It was a big downgrade in comfort and design from the original PlayStation controller, and was less comfortable to use than the N64 controller thanks to having to use it's hacked-on analog sticks that were obviously never meant to be there.

I suppose if you grew up with it or only played 2D games, you would have gotten used to it; but it's the original Homer Simpson controller.


The triggers are one of the greatest things about the controller, it's a shame no controller adapted it until Valve's Steam controller. Being both digital and analog at the same time is the best of both worlds.

Yup, and damn do I miss them when I'm playing REmake on Dolphin with my DS3.
 
I'm starting to feel like the only person who had difficulty with the 360's face buttons lol. My fingers would seriously hurt after fairly brief gaming sessions on that thing.



The worst part about them being "hacked on", is that they work so well in that position for so many different genres lol. Camera control mapped to the second analog stick changed gaming in my opinion.

It is weird as to why they'd hurt you, since they use the basic SNES design like most others. I do remember they feeling mushy when I first used one, though.

Camera being mapped to the second analog stock was a logical way to adapt the N64 C-buttons on a controller that didn't have them, and worked well. Having two analog sticks works well for many different genres, but not on that position. For example, any genre that involves moving a character with an analog stick, you'd want the analog stick to be in the primary position under your thumb, not on the lower secondary position like it is on the Dual Shock. The reason it's the place every other manufacturer puts the D-Pad there is because you can use that for minor commands, so you don't need to move your thumb all the way down there. Using it for your primary movement is just harder and backwards.

The reason those analogs are stuck there is so that it didn't make all the existing PS1 games harder to play.
 
The triggers are one of the greatest things about the controller, it's a shame no controller adapted it until Valve's Steam controller. Being both digital and analog at the same time is the best of both worlds.

But if you only needed to use them as digital triggers, which was frequently the case, you had to get past the entire throw of the analog squish to depress them. It was extremely exhausting after a while, and didn't make for great split-second movements.

I feel like in smash, I'd have instances where my shield wouldn't come up that fraction of a second I wanted it to, and I'd be having annoyances with the squish. I feel like they could have shortened the throw a bit.

It is weird as to why they'd hurt you, since they use the basic SNES design like most others. I do remember they feeling mushy when I first used one, though.

Camera being mapped to the second analog stock was a logical way to adapt the N64 C-buttons on a controller that didn't have them, and worked well. Having two analog sticks works well for many different genres, but not on that position. For example, any genre that involves moving a character with an analog stick, you'd want the analog stick to be in the primary position under your thumb, not on the lower secondary position like it is on the Dual Shock. The reason it's the place every other manufacturer puts the D-Pad there is because you can use that for minor commands, so you don't need to move your thumb all the way down there. Using it for your primary movement is just harder and backwards.

The reason those analogs are stuck there is so that it didn't make all the existing PS1 games harder to play.

I agree in a certain sense, I'm not sure Sony intended it or not, but when they added the analog sticks, it forever changed the way people held the controller, gone were the day's you'd grip the sides, and the "cradle" became the norm. And when people adapted to "cradling the controller", the entire face became more accessible. Maybe I just got used to it, but I find the sticks in that position to be extremely comfortable, it just makes the grips pointless lol.

Oh and maybe it was the lettering/size of the buttons themselves that felt so abrasive, I don't remember having any issues pressing the SNES face buttons.
 
This ruined everything.

It funneled a massive disloyal, casual audience into the market, which Sony and Microsoft chased in the form of Kinect and PS Move. Once the fad was over, all of those millions of potential customers packed their bags and moved on to their iPads, leaving Sony to abandon the PS Move, and Microsoft with a device whose market was falling apart.

On top of that, it basically ensured that third parties wouldn't want shit to do with Nintendo for the longest gaming generation on record when they realized that people were just buying Wiis to flail their arms around like idiots in Wii Sports. It also contributed to the death of a large majority of their IP library because they couldn't figure out how the fuck to make their IPs work properly with that piece of shit controller. Nintendo also forced their development dollars into this stupid shitstick instead of developing a proper system for a connected, HD age.

The Wiimote ruined everything.

I wish NeoGAFShitposts was still around, because holy shit this is awful and wrong about so many things I don't even know where to begin.

1. It was bad because it attracted a "disloyal audience?" Audiences aren't supposed to be loyalty. You don't owe a medium anything just because you purchased one product that was a part of it. Brand loyalty is an irrational, disgusting concept.

2. You also can't blame Nintendo for Microsoft and Sony's failings when they made the choice to emulate them to varying degrees of success. The originator of something new and popular is not responsible for what imitators do.

3. The Wii Remote was not the main reason the Wii U missed out on most of the big third party IPs on PS3 and 360. I don't even know how you could begin to think that.
 
I feel like in smash, I'd have instances where my shield wouldn't come up that fraction of a second I wanted it to, and I'd be having annoyances with the squish. I feel like they could have shortened the throw a bit.

I'm pretty sure that the shield in Melee are analog, i don't remember exactly but my memory tells me that the less you press the trigger the less the shield consumes either that or the shield is weaker the less you press it.
 
This is indeed a terrible concept. Someone, somewhere, wanted to follow the DS2 with that monstrosity...

The backlash against that controller was so loud that no one outside of Sony ever actually got to hold it.

we never got to try it. Maybe it was comfortable.

I doubt it. One of the main criticisms of the DS1-3 was that they're too small. Well look at how small that controller actually was when someone was holding it

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I doubt it. One of the main criticisms of the DS1-3 was that they're too small. Well look at how small that controller actually was when someone was holding it

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I think the crucial difference is that the handles look like they're actually big enough to wrap your fingers around, as opposed to the really short, stubby cone-shaped handles from before.
 
DS4 is the best, had the X1 had a dpad just as good then it would have been GOAT. I'm a believer of rumble triggers, they're awesome.
Aesthetically I think X1 controller takes the cake aswell, especially the white one.
 
I'm pretty sure that the shield in Melee are analog, i don't remember exactly but my memory tells me that the less you press the trigger the less the shield consumes either that or the shield is weaker the less you press it.

Could be user error. I used them mostly for dodge, and I'd always feel the need to press them the full distance, which got extremely exhausting after awhile lol. Analog buttons generally don't fair very well for me because I've got the tendency to press the whole distance (sub-conscious anger issues?). In racing games, if optional, I typically map the gas pedal to the right analog stick,

I still feel like the GC controller could have benefited from a shorter throw on the shoulder buttons.
 
No third party stuff.

Fuck this, third party stuff is where things get interesting when talking about Commodore. Their first party controllers are absolute garbage. European controllers are absolutely fascinating because they're so unlike what the rest of the world was playing with. Primarily, they were handheld joysticks, not gamepads, and they were typically one-button. Where most of the world was enjoying 2 button gamepads, the design of european joysticks radically dictated the design of their games.

Being from the US, when I first got into euro gaming/computing, learning to adjust to these joysticks was monstrously difficult. European joysticks aren't meant to be used like arcade sticks today, where they rest on a flat surface (a table, your lap). Figuring out how to comfortably hold a european joystick in the hands is the first challenge one must overcome. Frequently, when talking to other people who try european gaming, I've run across many who have absolutely no idea how these controllers are meant to be held. This is how I hold mine:

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Unlike virtually every other controller I use, I primarily use my right hand to control my direction when using a european joystick. My left hand essentially holds the entire thing up, gripped between my thumb which rests on the lone button and the other fingers which hold the underside. Because these sticks are typically much much smaller than an arcade stick (they're handheld afterall) the actual stick itself is usually much shorter than you may be used to. As such, rather than gripping the entire joystick with a fist, I use my thumb and index finger to hold the top of the joystick (usually where a ball resides) and then use my middle finger to push up against the shaft of the joystick. My ring and pinky fingers then curl around the side of the joystick onto the back to provide counter support, sort of like the classic "Claw" grip. I suspect Kid Icarus players will recognize this grip. A shot of the underside:

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This is initially uncomfortable but eventually it becomes natural. Several playthroughs of turrican and great giana sisters taught me the benefit and utility of holding the joystick like this. Typically, because the joysticks usually only had 1 mechanical firing button, european games tended to map secondary actions (usually jump) to the up direction on the joystick. Because up usually didn't do much in platformers (the most popular genre of the era when these kinds of controllers reigned supreme), mapping up to jump made sense. On a gamepad, this feels very wrong and never really gets comfortable, but with these joysticks, holding them they way I describe, it eventually starts to feel correct and even comfortable.

The secret to why this setup works stems from the leverage you create on the lever of the joystick with your middle finger, and also the stiffness and short throw of the joystick in general. Gaming with european joysticks is all about finding one that fits you comfortably. There are hundreds of joysticks out there, all with different throws and stiffnesses. Contrast to an arcade stick joystick, these european joysticks tend to be much stiffer, with much less throw.

Because of the way you grip the stick as I described above, you tend to control your horizontal left to right motion with the tip of your index finger, rocking it left and right. This leaves up and down controller to your middle finger and thumb. By pushing upward/placing pressure on the shaft of the stick with your middle finger, this means all you have to do is tap forward with your thumb on the stick to register up. In practice, this winds up feeling remarkably similar to pressing a button with your thumb, which is why it all works.

As I said earlier, the most important aspect of finding success with one of these kinds of joystick is to find one that fits you. The standard commodore pack-in joystick was absolute garbage:

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The thing can be broken easily by putting a lot of pressure on the stick (it slims down to a tiny base that can't be seen in that pic). The stick is too large, IMO, and the throw is abysmal. Very stiff, mushy controller. You never know where contact is being made, and thus you find yourself pushing as hard as you can every time you want to move. This tires out the wrists. The button itself is very cheap plastic that wiggles in the gamepad and feels very thin. It's similarly mushy.

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Despite looking terrible, the bug joystick is one of the very best on any commodore platform. This controller is tiny - smaller than the average mouse, and despite looking very odd, it's extremely comfortable to hold as I described above. The large buttons on the front fall where my thumbs lay. Unlike most controllers of the time, the stick itself is not stiff at all, but very loose like a modern arcade stick. It also uses microswitches rather than rubber membrane, giving the stick a satisfying click that you can hear and feel when playing. One of the best joysticks around, bar none.

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The Tac-2 is a terrific joystick from the time. It's larger, but still handheld. The steel shaft for the joystick feels great, and the joystick itself feels like an arcade stick with wing-style connection pads (arcade collectors will know what that means, as opposed to microswitch connectors). The stick is stiffer than it would appear, but the wing style connections makes this appropriate. There is good feedback when the wings close to make contact, making the controller feel comfortable in your hand. The buttons are high quality molded plastic and depress very well. A solidly recommended controller.

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This is arguably THE commodore controller, far more ubiquitous than the official joysticks, and the primary reason I said your rule on third party controllers is bunk. The much loved Competition Pro. This joystick is awesome, full stop. The joystick is comfortable, it is stiff but still provides an appropriate range of motion. The buttons have good throw and, while not microswitched, they still provided a nice, tactile "click" when pressed. This is one of the best joysticks I've ever held. Apparently, late in life, versions of this joystick with actual microswitches were released, and those versions had two independently functioning fire buttons (rather than both fire buttons being the same as in this pic). The fire buttons on both sides of the controller also means you can hold this in either hand (same as the tac-2 and bug controller). Great stick.

To keep this from being all about joysticks, I give you one of the worst gamepads I've ever used:

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This is the official Amiga CD32 controller. It is absolutely terrible. The first thing that's wrong is the size, it's not apparent in the picture but the thing is about as big as a DVD case. It's so huge and flat. Very very flat. It's also made out of very cheap plastic that creaks when being used. The buttons are so flimy and rattle in the joystick, and the d-pad is at an odd angle (like 20 degrees off angle). Everything is mushy, with poor feedback. And the thing had problems recognizing input sometimes. Just a terrible controller.

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Once again, competition pro to the rescue. Much like the competition pro joystick was the best stick for any commodore machine, the competition pro CD32 pad is light years beyond the stock pad. Obviously influenced by the sega genesis controller, it's sort of a mash up of all the standard pads of the time. Shape of the Genesis controller, button and trigger layout of the SNES pad, and the turbo switches of the Turbo Grafx 16 controller. Great pad. Not the best ever, but certaintly playable and comfortable.
 
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