Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]

Where do you stand on the issue of Scottish independence?


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Until they figure out way of somehow stopping people from leaning on others to vote the way they want at home with postal votes, stopping any post men from just chucking them in the bin or other abuses I am against.

While the possibilities surely exist, I just cannot believe they are widespread problems or concerns.
It would have to happen on a vast scale to have an influence on the results, and I just don't see that.

Interestingly according to Wikipedia. France doesn't have postal votes because in the good old days the post employees where widely organised communists and the government thought it was a security threat to democracy to have them carry around ballots. ;)

Just as a factual aside, the state of Oregon has voting ONLY by mail.

Washington and Colorado have also started moving towards it as the only option, if they haven't gotten there already.

I believe most votes in Switzerland are also postal.
 
The NO Campaign is getting bullied into keeping their opinions to them selfs and i find it very disgraceful to be honest. This video shows just what the YES mentality is to someone who opposes them. I currently live in Aberdeen a city that could be very divided by the a YES or NO vote due to it being the Oil and Gas Central city for Scotland. At heart im a Londoner only came up here for UNI, but from what i've seen there is a silent majority of NO voters who will sway the vote on Thursday.

Where do these people find the time to follow around Celebs and Politicians all day long to heckle them and throw stuff at them when they campaign for the NO vote. I honestly believe its because they have no jobs and the vast majority live off benefits, where as the majority of NO voters are the people that have jobs and houses and are able to make a logical decisions. The fact that the currency has not even been decided yet and the vote is in less than 24hrs just tells me how uninformed the electorate are.

Well thats my 2 cents on this whole matter
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If polling suggests that 50% of the electorate will vote YES then you are saying that 50% of Scotland are jobless living on benefits?

You have to be trolling with that comment, it's ridiculous.

Currency can't be decided until there is an outcome one way or another, so wanting something concrete before voting is never going to happen. The UK government won't even entertain the idea so how do you expect to get anywhere when one part is just basically sitting there saying nothing?
 
The NO Campaign is getting bullied into keeping their opinions to them selfs and i find it very disgraceful to be honest. This video shows just what the YES mentality is to someone who opposes them. I currently live in Aberdeen a city that could be very divided by the a YES or NO vote due to it being the Oil and Gas Central city for Scotland. At heart im a Londoner only came up here for UNI, but from what i've seen there is a silent majority of NO voters who will sway the vote on Thursday.

Where do these people find the time to follow around Celebs and Politicians all day long to heckle them and throw stuff at them when they campaign for the NO vote. I honestly believe its because they have no jobs and the vast majority live off benefits, where as the majority of NO voters are the people that have jobs and houses and are able to make a logical decisions. The fact that the currency has not even been decided yet and the vote is in less than 24hrs just tells me how uninformed the electorate are.

Well thats my 2 cents on this whole matter
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I think you may very well have a point on the 'silent no's' being a factor, we will have to see.

Your other point that many people have bolded is interesting and something I've never thought about before but it's a good question; where are all these people meant to be? I just assumed they were party activists but surely they have a normal job? Maybe not...
 
is this sudden the Daily Mail forum?
Shameful.

Heh, I just saw their front-page on the rack in Marks & Spencer. "Seriously Nasty Party"? I mean fucking hell, does the Daily Sieg Heil have some nerve.

So their record is:
1) Supported fascism / Hitler.
2) Occasionally employed Piers Morgan
3) Attacked the SNP
 
Heh, I just saw their front-page on the rack in Marks & Spencer. "Seriously Nasty Party"? I mean fucking hell, does the Daily Sieg Heil have some nerve.

So their record is:
1) Supported fascism / Hitler.
2) Occasionally employed Piers Morgan
3) Attacked the SNP
The second one is their only real crime.
 
Heh, I just saw their front-page on the rack in Marks & Spencer. "Seriously Nasty Party"? I mean fucking hell, does the Daily Sieg Heil have some nerve.

So their record is:
1) Supported fascism / Hitler.
2) Occasionally employed Piers Morgan
3) Attacked the SNP
Now I understand where the "Daily Heil" is coming from. I always understood "Daily Fail" because that rhymes with "Mail", but never could get why it would be "Heil". As every Brit knows how to pronounce "Heil", that couldn't be the reason either ;)
 
Postal count started on Monday, in North Lanarkshire at least.

Edit: Actually it's not the count per se but the verification but obviously those who do the verification have an idea of how the general voting goes.

You mean verification?

Edit: didn't see your edit.

From what I can read the vote can be verified without seeing the vote, is that not right?
 

Sorry I updated the post. It's the verification of votes which started on Monday (each postal vote needs to have it's signature and voters date of birth checked against the electoral register). The votes themselves aren't counted until the main vote but obviously the verifiers have a general idea of how the vote is splitting but nothing specific and conformation bias would play a large part in that.
 
The NO Campaign is getting bullied into keeping their opinions to them selfs and i find it very disgraceful to be honest. This video shows just what the YES mentality is to someone who opposes them. I currently live in Aberdeen a city that could be very divided by the a YES or NO vote due to it being the Oil and Gas Central city for Scotland. At heart im a Londoner only came up here for UNI, but from what i've seen there is a silent majority of NO voters who will sway the vote on Thursday.

Where do these people find the time to follow around Celebs and Politicians all day long to heckle them and throw stuff at them when they campaign for the NO vote. I honestly believe its because they have no jobs and the vast majority live off benefits, where as the majority of NO voters are the people that have jobs and houses and are able to make a logical decisions. The fact that the currency has not even been decided yet and the vote is in less than 24hrs just tells me how uninformed the electorate are.

Well thats my 2 cents on this whole matter
EWmof.gif
p0QHO.gif

this is an incredibly patronizing post


yesssssss

love to see the proper gordon brown. what a force.
 
Heh, I just saw their front-page on the rack in Marks & Spencer. "Seriously Nasty Party"? I mean fucking hell, does the Daily Sieg Heil have some nerve.

So their record is:
1) Supported fascism / Hitler.
2) Occasionally employed Piers Morgan
3) Attacked the SNP

We know which was the worst crime.
 
The NO Campaign is getting bullied into keeping their opinions to them selfs and i find it very disgraceful to be honest. This video shows just what the YES mentality is to someone who opposes them. I currently live in Aberdeen a city that could be very divided by the a YES or NO vote due to it being the Oil and Gas Central city for Scotland. At heart im a Londoner only came up here for UNI, but from what i've seen there is a silent majority of NO voters who will sway the vote on Thursday.

Where do these people find the time to follow around Celebs and Politicians all day long to heckle them and throw stuff at them when they campaign for the NO vote. I honestly believe its because they have no jobs and the vast majority live off benefits, where as the majority of NO voters are the people that have jobs and houses and are able to make a logical decisions. The fact that the currency has not even been decided yet and the vote is in less than 24hrs just tells me how uninformed the electorate are.

Well thats my 2 cents on this whole matter
EWmof.gif
p0QHO.gif

Firstly, this is a highly divisive issue so you would have to be naive to this world to not expect there to hightened tensions. Secondly, I think bullying towards no voters is wrong and churlish, and is not the way to carry this debate forward.

Thirdly, you seem to live in Aberdeen. One of my degrees is there by affiliation, although I am not a fan of this city at all. I think it is pretty shit overall I am afraid. But from my interpretation of events, it is likely to be more no than yes than other cities. Despite the decries of Salmond concerning oil, I suspect many oil workers will vote for the union. Could be wrong, but I think there is some entrenched conservatism in Aberdeen.

On your last point, you seem pretty ignorant. Sure those heckling the No campaigners may be unemployed, or some may have taken the week of work because they feel it is an important occassion in Scottish history, which it is. If you are generalising that to the two campaigns. Well...that is not my experience. Most of the people I know voting yes tend to be generally quite a bit better educated than those I know voting No. That is my experience however, I think both camps are pretty diverse when it comes to the working and middle classes. The upper class and the artistocracy are obviously more likley to support the Union.
 
Gotta come back to this post after seeing people agreeing with it on the previous page:

Where do these people find the time to follow around Celebs and Politicians all day long to heckle them and throw stuff at them when they campaign for the NO vote. I honestly believe its because they have no jobs and the vast majority live off benefits, where as the majority of NO voters are the people that have jobs and houses and are able to make a logical decisions. The fact that the currency has not even been decided yet and the vote is in less than 24hrs just tells me how uninformed the electorate are.

I honestly find this disgusting, and the fact that people agree with it in here is disturbing. I expect this kind of shite from somewhere like Reddit or comments on a Daily Mail article.
It's nice to see the true attitudes of some posters around here.
 
If polling suggests that 50% of the electorate will vote YES then you are saying that 50% of Scotland are jobless living on benefits?

You have to be trolling with that comment, it's ridiculous.

Currency can't be decided until there is an outcome one way or another, so wanting something concrete before voting is never going to happen. The UK government won't even entertain the idea so how do you expect to get anywhere when one part is just basically sitting there saying nothing?

You have taken the first quote out of context, i'm referring to the people who are chasing Ed Miliband down Edinburgh shopping centre and are being very aggressive on the street.

Knowing what currency you will be using is beyond vital, but if that does not appeal to you, then what about not having a back up plan, Alex Salmond does not have one if Scotland cant keep the pound. What about those 1 million jobs that depends on a Union, what about Trident the nuclear sub.. Many unanswered. Which leads me to believe that the electorate is uninformed.
 
Sorry I updated the post. It's the verification of votes which started on Monday (each postal vote needs to have it's signature and voters date of birth checked against the electoral register). The votes themselves aren't counted until the main vote but obviously the verifiers have a general idea of how the vote is splitting but nothing specific and conformation bias would play a large part in that.

Knowing who voted doesn't mean they know how they voted, surely?!
 
If polling suggests that 50% of the electorate will vote YES then you are saying that 50% of Scotland are jobless living on benefits?

You have to be trolling with that comment, it's ridiculous.

He was specifically referring to the peoiple out heckling politicians and celebs on the campaign trail, not everyone voting Yes.
 
You mean verification?

Edit: didn't see your edit.

From what I can read the vote can be verified without seeing the vote, is that not right?

In previous elections they open the packet before hand.

When are postal votes opened and how will
you know when an opening session is taking
place?
1.8 It is likely that several opening sessions will take place
before polling day, as well as on polling day itself.

1.9 Each Local Returning Officer must give election agents
and their sub-agents, if any have been appointed, at least 48
hours’ notice of when and where the sessions will take place.
They will also tell election agents or their sub-agents, where
If the election is combined with another poll, the issue of postal votes may be combined.
If so, the postal ballot pack will also contain the ballot
paper for the other poll(s).appointed, how many postal voting agents will be allowed to
attend each session.
1.10 There will be a final opening session after the polls have
closed to open any remaining postal votes received on polling
day, including any handed in to polling stations. This session
may be held at the verification venue or in another location.
The Local Returning Officer will advise election agents and
their sub-agents, where appointed, of the location for the final
opening.

1. Postal votes are brought to the opening session in
ballot boxes
2. The covering envelopes (envelope B) are taken out
and counted
3. The total number of covering envelopes is entered
onto a form
4. Covering envelopes (envelope B) are divided between
teams of opening staff
5. Staff open each covering envelope (envelope B) and
remove the postal voting statement and the sealed
ballot paper envelope (envelope A)
6. Staff check that the number on the postal voting
statement matches the number on envelope A
7. If the numbers match, staff check that the elector has
provided a signature and a date of birth (without
checking that they are the elector’s at this stage).
8. Postal voting statements without a signature and date
of birth cause the postal vote to be rejected
9. If the statement or ballot paper envelope is missing, or
the numbers on the statement and ballot paper
envelope do not match, the document(s) are set aside,
recorded and stored in secure packets
10. The Local Returning Officer or their deputy must verify
the dates of birth and signatures on every statement
and be satisfied that they match those given on the
electors’ original applications
11. Following verification of the signatures and dates of
birth, postal voting statements are removed from the
tables
12. Staff open the ballot paper envelopes (envelope A)
and remove the ballot paper
13. Staff check that the number on the back of the ballot
paper matches the number on the ballot paper
envelope (envelope A)
14. Valid ballot papers (not votes) are counted and the
total number is recorded
15. All valid ballot papers are placed into ballot boxes and
stored securely before being delivered to the count
venue for counting after the close of poll

But it's been a long time since I've been involved in that side of things.
 
Gotta come back to this post after seeing people agreeing with it on the previous page:



I honestly find this disgusting, and the fact that people agree with it in here is disturbing. I expect this kind of shite from somewhere like Reddit or comments on a Daily Mail article.
It's nice to see the true attitudes of some posters around here.

Seems to me like your version of a democracy is one where only 1 opinion can be vocalised. GAF dont all think the same we have different beliefs and values, which is why we post threads to see what others think.
 
In previous elections they open the packet before hand.



But it's been a long time since I've been involved in that side of things.

Envelope A is meant to be opened face down I believe, they're not meant to see the vote, never mind talk about it on social media.
 
Gotta come back to this post after seeing people agreeing with it on the previous page:



I honestly find this disgusting, and the fact that people agree with it in here is disturbing. I expect this kind of shite from somewhere like Reddit or comments on a Daily Mail article.
It's nice to see the true attitudes of some posters around here.

lol

Opinions. Mine is based from who I've seen canvassing the streets. If my experiences broadly agree with what he's saying I'm disgusting? Okay then.
 
The votes can be verified without seeing which way the voter voted. It's illegal with a punishment of a £5000 fine and/or 6 months in prison to release boring info before the polls close.

But they aren't verified without both envelopes being opened. The actual ballot is checked to see if it is valid before being added to the cumulative tally of verified ballots

I've posted the Electoral commissions process for dealing with postal votes albeit that's for normal elections, perhaps this is different but typically both envelopes are opened at the verification stage.
 
Seems to me like your version of a democracy is one where only 1 opinion can be vocalised. GAF dont all think the same we have different beliefs and values, which is why we post threads to see what others think.

Yep, that's absolutely not what I said at all.

I'm disgusted that you have believe that no voters are mostly informed, due to them having jobs and houses, whilst yes voters are the opposite.
Well done, I didn't realise I had to make enough money to own my own house to make an informed decision! Thank you for enlightening me with this information.

Everyone's allowed to post their own opinion, but if you're talking utter pish, then I'm also free to call you out on it.

lol

Opinions. Mine is based from who I've seen canvassing the streets. If my experiences broadly agree with what he's saying I'm disgusting? Okay then.

Assuming that anyone with money is more likely to make an informed decision than those poorer than them, and therefore vote No, is indeed disgusting.
 
Envelope A is meant to be opened face down I believe, they're not meant to see the vote, never mind talk about it on social media.

12. Staff open the ballot paper envelopes (envelope A)
and remove the ballot paper
13. Staff check that the number on the back of the ballot
paper matches the number on the ballot paper
envelope (envelope A)
14. Valid ballot papers (not votes) are counted and the
total number is recorded

I know, I've done it. The guidance is to avoid looking at the ballot, but in practice you can't help but see it certainly not every ballot but quite a few over the course of a session.. It's far more of an issue I imagine on a single issue ballot, in most ballots it would be pretty difficult to see who voted which way at a glance but on a binary choice you'd get a clear indication.

Talking about it is a big no no though.
 
You have taken the first quote out of context, i'm referring to the people who are chasing Ed Miliband down Edinburgh shopping centre and are being very aggressive on the street.

Knowing what currency you will be using is beyond vital, but if that does not appeal to you, then what about not having a back up plan, Alex Salmond does not have one if Scotland cant keep the pound. What about those 1 million jobs that depends on a Union, what about Trident the nuclear sub.. Many unanswered. Which leads me to believe that the electorate is uninformed.

If you were equally critical you would realise that a lot of these claims are also subject to negotiation. 1 million jobs? Where is the breakdown. Does that include mine? I am self-employed and can move where I please and the PhD I am also starting is registered with a university in England. As for the CU, you will find that many in the Yes campaign are not particularly enthusiastic about. It is a point of technical negotiation. The way that some trumpet it you would think it was a herculean challenge up there with eliminating poverty. As I said, it is a technical issue which would be negotiated between Scotland and the rest of UK come independence. How can he give absolute guarantees on this when the other side has to agree?

Uzzy: It's the same Brown, except he is out of the media's targets. Personally, I hope he disappears again.
 
You have taken the first quote out of context, i'm referring to the people who are chasing Ed Miliband down Edinburgh shopping centre and are being very aggressive on the street.

Knowing what currency you will be using is beyond vital, but if that does not appeal to you, then what about not having a back up plan, Alex Salmond does not have one if Scotland cant keep the pound. What about those 1 million jobs that depends on a Union, what about Trident the nuclear sub.. Many unanswered. Which leads me to believe that the electorate is uninformed.

Fair enough but it's still a ridiculous statement, many people have taken time off work to campaign or perhaps they do shift work? That doesn't fit your agenda though.

The electorate is never going to be informed enough to be 100% confident in either side, you have SNP that can't 100% guarantee anything because a YES vote is a step in to the unknown and you have Labour actively campiagning with the slogan "If you don't know, vote no".

People should be encouraged to seek out as much information as they can not blindly told to accept the status quo because their tiny brains can't handle it.

The NO movement can't guarantee anything either, neither side can, the no folk are the ones in power now and they can't even agree on further devolution never mind actually get it through parliament when the time comes.
 
This vote seems kind of ridiculous, shouldn't they be posing a sort of model to the people....as in...here is a constitution...rather than asking a wishy washy question that will probably be subject to a stitch up?
 
How can he give absolute guarantees on this when the other side has to agree?

I guess it comes down to 'We'll deal with that when we get there' is a bit of a daunting prospect to leave hanging in the air in event of a Yes win. It's the currency and cornerstone of the economy.

You shouldn't avoid change due to fear of the unknown, but it's a pretty big issue to say 'we don't know' on.
 
The Scottish Police Federation has issued a press release about the mayhem on the streets up here, and the possibilities of civil war on Friday.

What on EARTH are you on about?

It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Scotland’s citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

sarcasm, how does it work?

Not like that.
 
This vote seems kind of ridiculous, shouldn't they be posing a sort of model to the people....as in...here is a constitution...rather than asking a wishy washy question that will probably be subject to a stitch up?

How can they, the YES side has no common goal, infact it's is made up of groups with differences that can never be reconciled ( how do you please the Greens while having an economy based on oil, or become more socialist while cosying up to big business and the private sector? )

If YES wins we have years of turmoil ahead while all the little fish desperately try to become big fish and fill the power vacuum.
 
If you were equally critical you would realise that a lot of these claims are also subject to negotiation. 1 million jobs? Where is the breakdown. Does that include mine? I am self-employed and can move where I please and the PhD I am also starting is registered with a university in England. As for the CU, you will find that many in the Yes campaign are not particularly enthusiastic about. It is a point of technical negotiation. The way that some trumpet it you would think it was a herculean challenge up there with eliminating poverty. As I said, it is a technical issue which would be negotiated between Scotland and the rest of UK come independence. How can he give absolute guarantees on this when the other side has to agree?

Uzzy: It's the same Brown, except he is out of the media's targets. Personally, I hope he disappears again.

The point is, you cant negotiate fairy after independence, when vital questions have not been answered before hand. I would want to know if i will still be considered British if i get independence, I would want to know what are the ramifications on retail prices , i would want to know if my bills will go up or stay the same.

Its like saying shoot now ask later, which is the gamble that many scots people are taking.
 
How can they, the YES side has no common goal, infarct is made up of groups with distended that can never be reconciled ( how do you please the Greens while having an economy based on oil, or become more socialist while coating up to big business and the private sector? )

If YES wins we have years of turmoil ahead while all the little small.fish desperately try to fill the power vacuum.

That why they have these things called elections.

By the same token we somehow have 3 Westminster Party leaders vaguely promising "something" which none of them agree on, on which their parties haven't been consulted and in the case of the Tories are where their parties are openly rebelling against even the notion.
 
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