My coworker might get fired for a racist comment.
- Thread starter RustyNails
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They should all just take a step into Canada and view the wonderful world of multiculturalism.
Squirrel Killer
Member
If this is the first time she's done something like this I'm not sure why a written reprimand and a warning that if she does it again, there may be more severe consequences up to and including termination wouldn't suffice. I would think such discipline would give the company safe harbor from any sort of "creating or allowing a hostile workplace" lawsuit and avoid the negatives of firing her (paying unemployment, cost of onboarding a new person, loss of productivity while filling her position, etc...)
Pinko Marx
Banned
I dare you to go to any predominantly black area and just start throwing those words around. I dare you to walk into a store and just start calling everything f's and n's. They're just words right?
DoktorEvil
Banned
Before you go " US is a shitty place", I'd like to point out that this is common in any workplace where workplace politics exist.
The "indirect manager" in this story was a bit jumpy to go play tattle-tale on this one instance, which leads me to believe that she's the "last in, first out" hire or R just doesn't like the lady and now wants an excuse to get her fired. I'm less inclined to trust R now, because instead of bringing it up in a non-chalant way to a direct boss, R went to a superior like a child runs to a teacher.
If this is her first time saying something like this(as in, no other prior incidents), than a warning and some training should be enough to nip it in the bud. If this is a MNC or multi location business and she has an important job, transferring her to another office is also a good idea. Firing someone for what presumably was a private opinion expressed in a workplace isn't a workplace I'd ever want to work for.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This thread is eye-opening. My last two jobs (in the academic and industry sides if biotech) made it explicitly clear that you could face sanctions up to and including termination for violating company behavior guidelines, including racial or sexual discrimination/harassment/profanity. My current company made us watch an hour long educational video about the do's and don'ts of workplace etiquette.
And no, HR does not give a shit if you have a family. You abuse the term "thought police" when the person volunteered the information unprovoked and in mixed company.
edit: I should probably add that my last two jobs have had sizeable international communities of many different races. So the casual water cooler racism that invades so many homogeneous workplaces wasn't/isn't really a thing.
And no, HR does not give a shit if you have a family. You abuse the term "thought police" when the person volunteered the information unprovoked and in mixed company.
edit: I should probably add that my last two jobs have had sizeable international communities of many different races. So the casual water cooler racism that invades so many homogeneous workplaces wasn't/isn't really a thing.
Ploid 3.0
Member
This post…
Last month I learned that some police department use the N word a lot also. Even before hiring a black person they make sure that they are ok with that. The more you know.
Feels bad man.jpg
Heck you can't even go around calling dude's wives hoes or prostitutes. Just using those words could get you in trouble. How do words work ><
her worst nightmare
A double Canadian?
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
In the south, it's a common stereotype that Black people use Crisco oil as a means to keep their hair moist. It's derogatory to the extreme.
QuiteWhittle
Member
I hope no minority let some bigoted prick walk all over them. This isn't the 50s, there is no reason why anyone in the workplace, let alone the fucking boss, should address someone with slurs and not face serious consequences.
DoktorEvil
Banned
To be fair, I don't recall anyone saying that it's cool and ok to accept her saying those things. She made her workplace much more uncomfortable by those 2 comments alone.
Not everyone is educated on workplace etiquette either. Most small offices and small businesses don't have formal procedures in place that address workplace etiquette. It's normally the big MNC's that can afford to do so and procedures to document any misconduct.
But, a woman in her 50s might not understand that the world is a bit different than it was in her 20s and that saying that shit in the workplace isn't acceptable. Discipline and documentation is acceptable, not outright firing her. You fire her for expressing an unpopular opinion without enough cause, you're leaving your company at liability for a lawsuit. Not to forget, paying to search for new employees and screening people again for that same job is time consuming and costly.
Yep... who cares if grown adults are saying derogatory terms in a professional workplace? They deserve jobs too! It's not like there's people out there looking for work who could do the exact same job and actually, you know, be professional and respectful to people of different backgrounds and thus help make the place they work at have a good (and/or better) reputation.
Some really amazing posts in this thread.
I have a few Asian/Indian coworkers who said they want their sons to only marry within their race/culture. I guess it all depends on how it's said. I think because she only singled out two specific groups, that's what made it unacceptable. I can't really see anyone being fired for saying, eh, I hope my daughter only marries a nice Irish lad, an nice family-oriented Italian.
They are just words.
I think I should be able to walk anywhere and say whatever I want to say no matter who is around.
Everyone should be able to.
Angelus Errare
Banned
You can say any word you want to around anyone you want to, no one can stop you. Consequences are a different thing altogether.
crimzonflame
Member
We get the same ignorant comments here in Canada.
THIS. SO much this.
The last two pages have been crazy to read.
Let's put it into one concise post: Nobody at this job is required to give a single shred of a fuck about:
1) The Little Old Racist's family.
2) The Little Old Racist's age.
3) The Little Old Racist's ability to provide for herself without this job.
4) The Little Old Racist's likelihood of having to eat cat food in the future.
5) Making The Little Old Racist a "better person" through "rehabilitation."
The five points above are NOBODY'S problem but The Little Old Racist's. What the employers DO need to be concerned about, though, is having someone on the staff that has demonstrated themselves to be a lawsuit waiting to happen. What they DO need to be concerned about, is all their not-racist employees who they could risk losing by forcing them to work side-by-side with someone who has verbalized that she see's them as less than human.
No, fuck that shit. The old bitty can kick rocks.
Yikes.
Fucking yikes.
I sincerely hope you don't think that's in any way acceptable or common practice. If so... dude...
Saying "they are just words" ignores even basic fucking context and history behind those words. You might say "b-b-but, he was just joking and didn't mean anything, they're just words!" Again, that would still absolutely ignore the actual meaning of those words (because yes, words are just words, and words do mean something). And because words do have meaning, that's why there are consequences associated with their use.
Jesus fucking Christ, this topic.
Angelus Errare
Banned
God this country sucks, racists are the most discriminated group in the US (Sorry black people). This is totes why I vote republican! I'm hoping we can move this country back to circa 1930 when racism was okay in the work place. Nowadays I can't even say "nigger" without the thought police beating me with their SJW batons. Ugh.
How about you people think about the feelings of the racists that you're hurting? They're just words!
How about you people think about the feelings of the racists that you're hurting? They're just words!
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You can...legally. Your words will always have consequences though. Even children understand this.
To give another example, you don't just saunter up to women in public and say, "Hey sugar tits, I'd like to bend you over and make you my baby's mother!" Catcalls are legal, but they are still considered grossly inappropriate; sharing that kind of language with a coworker would certainly result in a reprimand or immediate termination, depending on the employer. Sharing that on the street or in a bar might get you slapped, insulted, or a drink thrown in your face.
The real world isn't a message board without mods, we aren't all talking past one another anonymously at all times with no oversight. Even with freedom of speech.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
Exactly. In a professional capacity, you need to know what to say and what not to say. If you don't, then you need to learn real quick.
Squirrel Killer
Member
What the employers also DO need to be concerned about is paying unemployment, a potential wrongful termination lawsuit, the cost of onboarding a new person, and loss of productivity while filling the position, all while having within their toolset a strong defense against a "hostile workplace" lawsuit.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Try saying bomb in an airplane, bomb in a theater, or gun on a bus and see how that goes.
There is such a thing as freedom of speech within reason.
Not even remotely true. Let's not bring politics into this.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Rusty, how about an update?
Manmademan
Member
Yeah, no. Especially not in a workplace setting. Most companies that are worth a damn have non discrimination and harassment policies.
Ours is very much zero tolerance, we emphasize it during training, and anyone stupid enough to roll around the workplace broadcasting how they don't like niggers or Jews then DOUBLING DOWN ON IT when confronted will be swiftly out on their ass.
Free speech is nice and all but does not apply in the workplace. You are representing your company while
Collecting that paycheck, and everyone is entitled to work in a respectful, hate free environment. You don't agree? Then you won't stay employed.
Source: I'm an HR administrator/manager in state government. Our policy on this is zero tolerance. Zero.
Newsflash, those are concerns employers have to worry about every day. It's a part of operating a business. You lose employees every day for all types of reasons. If you're a large enough business, you're constantly in the position of training someone new. These aren't valid excuses to keep a known toxic element on the payroll.
As for the potential lawsuit, Michigan is an at will state, so she'd have to be able to prove that she was fired erroneously. She'd also have to be prepared to go against the manager who filed the report with HR and the employee who was also present and corroborated with him. That the known toxic element might attempt to sue you for doing the right thing and canning them is also not a valid excuse to keep them around.
Allez Phill
Banned
Well, if you enjoy missing teeth, go ahead and do so with that.
Pinko Marx
Banned
No one is stopping you from saying what you want
Just like no one is stopping others from reacting how THEY to your words.
Also, as has been said, freedom of speech only applies to the government not restricting your speech, private companies are a different thing altogether.
Manmademan
Member
Can't speak for everyone, but the example in the OP is a clear violation of our ethics policy.
Not only can I show you the door with no worry about wrongful termination, but you won't be getting a dime in unemployment.
Having to hire new employees to replace racist bigots is annoying, but not as annoying as losing good employees who get frustrated from having to work in an environment full of racist bigots.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Yea I apologize. I'm sure racists have other reasons.
spindashing
Banned
This is just like people always saying that they have their First Amendment right when they get in trouble for saying shit.
You do have the right to say whatever you want, but people do have the right to respond and call you out on your shit if you say something stupid.
So they'd be at home here?
Oh, they're just the largest form of communication that exists for our race. No big deal. We can survive off of body language cues for the rest of our lives.
This is priviledge.
Not saying white or male, but it's a sense of entitlement out of ignorance "of course I should be able, why not?" Because you never had to deal with the issue yourself in your short life.
freeofgreed
Member
Why should the company go through all that effort of transferring her to another department just to make her feel comfortable? What has she done besides being a bigot to deserve that privilege? You honestly don't see the issue with having someone who has no problem with casually saying racist shit (in front of the manager no less). That's a ticking time bomb, what if she says that to a black or Jewish person, and they decide to sue the company? What if she is in a position of power of a black or Jewish person, and she lets her bigotry influence her? She's a huge liability and any company worth a damn, would know it's better to just get rid of her then to keep her on with the slim hope that she will change her views.
Honestly I don't think its worth the effort trying to change her. From what the OP has given us it's clear that shes had that opinion for quite some time, and older people especially have very solidified views, so imo its kind of a lost cause.
The problem is, it's just as easy to avoid liability for a hostile work environment. "The incident was reported to us and we took immediate action to reprimand the employee in question." If its the first incident, that's all you need and there's little risk in keeping them on. This is why it's equal odds which way the Company goes. My personal guess is that they'll take the route of reprimanding the employee, because it gives HR something to do. There's an element of self-preservation here: HR is in control of what happens going forward and they'll probably pitch the course of action that gives them the most amount of work to do, to demonstrate how vital they are to the Company.
whatever77
Banned
I hope she won't get fired. But if she spoke that in front of a customer, PR is absolutely in the right to fired her to protect the company.
Manmademan
Member
Yes, because HR is just chomping at the bit to create as much useless busy work as possible, when we aren't sleeping in the office or playing facebook games all day.
Not saying that the company couldn't find a reason to keep her around...as fucked up as that would be (and no, "it gives HR something to do" doesn't make it less fucked up.)
My point was that it wouldn't be wrong to can her racist ass.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
As opposed to other employees? Not all work is public-facing. If she said it at home, that's one thing. But at work? That creates an uncomfortable environment.
Howard Ballou
Member
Yeah, seems like a pretty clear-cut case especially after she doubled down on the racism. Pretty easy to see why R would have to take it up the cha...
DoktorEvil
Banned
I'm giving her the slight benefit of the doubt based on the info OP has provided us. She doesn't sound like a blatantly malicious person(most likely a bigot), except when it come to her daughter's relationships, which is still a private issue. If she's not front facing clients it shouldn't affect the bottom line. The transferring to another office is a way to both keep those current workers happy and meanwhile avoid directly firing her and risking a lawsuit.
If her job is easily replaceable, such as admin work, then fuck it get rid of her and bring on someone new. If she drives revenue or brings in significant business, the very last thing you'd want to do immediately is fire her without cause, even in an at will state.
The transferring to another office isn't to accommodate her, its to give her incentive enough to quit on her own merits and absolve the company of any liability. You can't sue if you quit, you feel me?
Kotetsu534
Member
For the people who are defending her, try to imagine, for a moment, you're a recently hired junior who happens to be black or Jewish, and you find out from one of your fellow employees that one of your seniors is openly racist. Then try to imagine what you might think when that senior disapproves of your work or criticises your appearance.
Or try to imagine that you're interviewing candidates for a role for the first time in your career. You happen to know one of your seniors, who entrusted you with the task, is racist. In assessing the candidates, there are two clear stand outs, one white and one black. Who are you going to go for?
I submit that accommodating openly racist workers in an organisation will inevitably promote institutional racism.
Or try to imagine that you're interviewing candidates for a role for the first time in your career. You happen to know one of your seniors, who entrusted you with the task, is racist. In assessing the candidates, there are two clear stand outs, one white and one black. Who are you going to go for?
I submit that accommodating openly racist workers in an organisation will inevitably promote institutional racism.
Manmademan
Member
Yeah, no. Let's take this one step further.
If we transfer all the bigots away to an office or area where they only interact with like-minded idiots, then I am concentrating all of the racists in one spot. This will not only make that behavior MORE likely, but it also creates an area where I can't send blacks/women/gays/jews/minorities because the people who work there have a known bias and lack the good judgement to keep that bias to themselves.
You do not "shuffle around" toxic workplace elements you fucking fire them.
These people "can't sue" if they're fired for cause, which workplace harassment is, any more than they could sue for being fired for stealing from the company.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
You can't just happen to be black or Jewish. There's a reason for everything. Let's start over.
I'm so glad I live in Canada, sometimes. All of the above is assumed and taken for granted.
Fuck this woman. Can't believe the defense force for her in this thread.
"They're just words, people." SMFH
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