I think the strategy gurus are the ones who take issue with Awakening.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
You manage IntSys: Advance Wars 3DS or Fire Emblem (Awakening 2)?
- Thread starter ash_ag
- Start date
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Basically, they stem along these lines (from what I've noticed).
-Unlimited grinding potential (though this is more up for debate, given some of the DLC challenges)
-Lack of mission structure variety
-Story is...not as good as some past FEs.
-Time travel mechanic, though fun, is kinda out there, even for FE.
-Along with grinding, pairing mechanic, alongside some of the new skills and the like, breaks the game's difficulty
-Characters aside from Robin are pretty much archetypes, and not really involved in the story as much as several were from past FEs.
-Though this may be a personal one, the lack of distinguishing characteristics between characters, both stat-wise (since you can grind everyone out), and color-wise (everyone looks the exact same with class outfits). Oh, and feet.
MrFrankFontaine
Banned
Advance Wars. My son has a 3DS, but I would pick up an XL just for this game.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Yes.
Awakening doesn't really have any defend objectives, and it doesn't really do anything interesting with the seize/route objectives it does use. It doesn't have any fog of war maps. Most of the maps are also pretty bland in terms of design. Lots of open fields, other FE games generally have more interesting map and enemy layouts that changes up the strategy throughout the game and not just placed sporadically between open field maps.
It's also not balanced very well, the game gets easier the further in you get with only 2-3 chapters that stand out (even without any grinding or anything). Plus the game systems are more designed around grinding and min-maxing in this game with the second seals and the way the skill/child systems work. Unlimited grinding and class changing also makes characters way less unique.
And personally, I don't like the whole waifu thing, and I don't like traversable world maps in FE games. Among other things I'm probably not thinking of. And yeah, the story was really bad too.
It's not very different, but thematically and content wise, it does come across as a bit of a black sheep, even when compared to its more recent siblings.
A big part of it is that Awakening comes off of the recent "Tellius" entries of the series, where the plot and setting got quite intricate and had several sides to a common conflict being portrayed by likeable characters. PoR and RD are both rather challenging games at the higher difficulties, too, which is due to their strict following of the FE formula - no grinding, few arena opportunities, and really interesting map scenarios.
Awakening feels like a slight step back. That's not to say that it was made for the 'casuals' - I do hear that from time to time on other fan sites - but rather, they re-evaluated what features they wanted to emphasize. Most notably, the game's relationship system was placed front and center, and kind of aped Persona's social links system (and it paid off - a lot of the initial buzz and interest was in being able to hook up people of your party).
On the other hand, other elements suffered - encounter design and overall plot being the most noticeable. Maps are rather samey and rarely throw interesting encounters at you, and since the relationship mechanic is made so prominent, there's a smaller cast of characters to account for the fact that you might not possibly get a 'full party' throughout the course of the game.
Granted, now that they've got one title out, they also have a lot of opportunities to improve these areas and basically try to appease both crowds. With them busy on Project: S.T.E.A.M, though, we might not see the fruits of those labors for quite some time...
Basically, there's too much focus on character creation and not enough focus on what makes Fire Emblem a strategy RPG series: strategy. What this means is it doesn't matter if you made a decision that hampers your progression. Simply grind, change classes and cheese your way out, as long as you put enough time into it. In past Fire Emblems, you're restricted to a limited exp pool; you have to work with what you've chosen to train and level up. Then there's the limited map variety and routes in Awakening, which makes it even more non-strategic. They put all their eggs into one basket, the characters, but unfortunately, that makes it no different from tactical RPGs such as FFT and TO.
Elfforkusu
Member
Use a small Advance Wars game as an incubator for ideas for the next Fire Emblem.
Alongside the points made above...
Yes because the entire gameplay was a watered down experience that is not what is indicative of the Fire Emblem series and the SRPG genre as a whole.
The entire difficulty scale of Awakening is completely off-scale where Hard Casual really isn't hard at all. The ability to revisit stages and grind out like in Sacred Stones completely off-balanced the entire game.
The Pair-Up system is also horribly flawed in terms of the amount of boosts you receive to the point where you basically break the entire game with the Pair-Up system.
Don't get me wrong, the story and setting weren't bad and they were completely adequate for Fire Emblem standards. However the gameplay compared to previous games is offensively watered down.
You really don't need to strategize and manage your resources at all throughout Awakening because of how easy it is to stock up on weapons and Pair-Up boosts and cruise through the entire game. You aren't required to use strategy at all and all you have to do is literally pair-up, have high speed, and basically one man army the entire map. I mean do your enemies ever use the pair up system against you? You the player were the only one with access to it and the stat bonuses you received because of it outweighed the entire difficulty curve of the rest of the game.
You don't have to really think about where it's best to place my units or which weapons I must use because that's all thrown out the window with the introduction of limitless Seals where you can make every unit work for any situation.
In previous games, you wouldn't be able to grind your way through or cheese out the system because you followed a castle/mission structure and you didn't revisit past stages.
In previous games you had no pair-up support system and you had to calculate which weapons, classes, and positions were best for your situation and make do with it.
The entire point of permadeath was so that you didn't carelessly take down an entire map without any consequences. There's a reason why Fire Emblem is a STRATEGY RPG and not your regular down the mill Role Playing Game.
The only times were Awakening was similar to difficulty and gameplay of the previous games were during Lunatic and Lunatic+ missions in the first 4-5 chapters. You had to rely on your jeigan character and use strategy to get past it. After that, the entire mechanics of the game are out the window because it was no longer forced upon you. The difficulty between Lunatic and Lunatic+ was also completely unbalanced. The fact that the game's challenge was locked behind DLC made it worse because as a fan, you basically had to pay at least another $30 to get the same kind of experience.
You had to buy DLC for classes and for challenge missions such as Katarina's mission, experiences that were not offered at all in the main game.
Fire Emblem 12 was basically Awakening before it came out, but it didn't have the unnecessary fluff that watered down the gameplay. Like seriously, Fire Emblem Awakening was just FE12 with a new character skin and Super Easy Mode pasted onto it.
TL;DR Fire Emblem Awakening's success was mounted on characters and NOT the gameplay, contrary to the rest of the series which focused on both character development and strategy. The game itself was a completely watered down experience in comparison.
Fire Emblem Awakening wasn't a bad game, that title belongs to Roy's game and Shadow Dragon, but it was a game that completely stripped what made Fire Emblem the game it was and made up for it in the characters and DLC.
Awakening is basically the DmC Donte to Fire Emblem's Devil May Cry.
Awakening was great for a newcomer or during your first play through if you didn't grind, but certain design decisions hurt the game.
In previous FE's, you'd have a very limited amount of exp as you had only main chapters as battles. So how characters grew and performed was very important, and one character who might randomly have been a beast in one playthrough becomes sidelined and useless in the next. There was better map design and more emphasis on using terrain, more varied mission objectives, and more interesting tactics rather than just pairing everyone up.
Basically the tl;dr is that the ability to grind to max level and pair everyone up threw the difficulty and progression all out of whack, and some gameplay changes weren't for the best.
FE:A is still a great game though, it really is.
EDIT: Forgot about the story. Old FE's had wonderfully political stories with incredible world building and reasonably realistic characters. Ike's journey through the two Radiant games is insane. FE:A's story, on the other hand, was just awful. Anime inspired nonsense from start to finish.
Spinosaurus
Member
My biggest problem is in the map design. A lot of them were very open and barren, and your units basically just have to go from point A to point B while taking out any units in the way, except there are also enemy reinforcements coming from behind. Every turn.
Really felt like it was less strategy and more bulldozing your way through. The enemy placement was really uninteresting. It's not for me, personally.
Gunstar Ikari
Unconfirmed Member
As much fun as I had with FE7 and Awakening, I would not give a single fuck if there was never another FE game.
The only question is whether to return to "Wars World" or create a new, but similar setting.
The only question is whether to return to "Wars World" or create a new, but similar setting.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
In recent days, I've been considering how I approach the idea of "casualization" ruining a series, and how reaching out to a larger audience shouldn't be a knee-jerk bad thing...
BUT, Fire Emblem Awakening is both casualization in terms of difficulty and, from my experience with other Fire Emblems (mainly reading up on them, I've only really played a bit of the GBA and GCN ones), also sort of regressive in storytelling. I'd say Awakening's characters are "deeper" than the majority of previous characters, mainly in terms of the "optional" party members who in previous games would barely have much to say after joining, but a lot of that deepness is accomplished through explicit character archetypes, a lot of them pretty much stock-anime tropes, and almost memetic repetition of certain phrases or ideas.
For example, Gaius constantly makes sweet puns, Kallam makes jokes about not being noticed, etc. Yes, they have more depth to that, but their "gimmick" is usually front and fore-center for most of the characters, except the main ones who usually have a gimmick added to oppose their more serious plot-related contributions such as Chrom, Avatar, and Frederick, and a bit cartoonish. I think the female characters get the worst of this since most of them fall into the types of characteristics you'd associate with a harem anime, such as Tharja, Sumia, Nowi, and Maribelle. The dark-chick with secretly a good heart, the klutzy girl, the, well, literally a loli there's no denying that's what the original JP version was aiming for with that design, and the rich "oujou" girl or whatever you call it, they all really seem like the type of characters you'd run into in a dating game. While you can choose to pair-up with both male and females, from my experience it seemed like the female characters were a bit more sexual in their gimmicks than the males, their gimmicks being set up as sort of a way to eroticize them---but as a primarily straight guy, I can't say for sure.
I think the biggest issue for most people though is while the characters are strong, the main plot is just---there. The older Fire Emblems were known for quite detailed plots, with a lot of political intrigue and such, which Awakening falls a bit short on. Perhaps this was because they wanted to focus on the characters first and foremost, which is easier to do with a looser story, or perhaps they just thought that the darker, deeper story-lines were a turn-off for casual audiences.
So, yeah, overall I think Fire Emblem Awakening is both mechanically regressive, and thematically regressive. Still a really fun game, and for someone who never got into the other Fire Emblems due to their stricter difficulty and less "freedom" to really experiment with characters without dedicating multiple playthroughs, helped me ease into the series. But then I played the GBA game Ambassadors got on the 3DS, Sacred Stones, and from the get-go there's more of an interesting plot to the game, and the maps quickly ramp up to involving actual strategy whereas Awakening arguably never does, quickly becoming a "swarm the enemies" once you get access to all the cheats the game gets you to ensure you have the upper hand. Sacred Stones does that too, although I've yet to reach where it opens up, but definitely not to that extent.
I personally enjoyed Persona 3 as well as both Persona 2 games.
Although Persona 3 added things like social links, Atlus DID try to streamline the gameplay and it still did feel like a typical Persona/SMT RPG. They expanded the gameplay in Persona 3 and the game still felt like the typical, brutal Atlus experience that we all know and love.
As for DmC and Devil May Cry, well people have already expressed their discontempt for DmC gameplay-wise as it does not even fucking compare and touch the echelon that is DMC3/DMC4.
To finish off my final point about my dislike of Fire Emblem Awakening and the fact that most Awakening only fans won't even give the older games a chance, for good and bad reasons, Fire Emblem Awakening is basically a Musou game with how they handled the pair-up system.
The people who want a Fire Emblem Musou game, you basically got one in Awakening in RPG form.
Well damn, I can definitely see why fans of the series aren't too happy with Awakening. I've had similar experiences with series I've loved.
I hate to be part of the problem, but I really enjoyed the pair up mechanic. A lot of the conversation between the cast were entertaining and I liked seeing my army grow with one another as the story progressed. The time travel thing was pretty cool too I thought, but yeah, it completely broke the game if you planned it out right.
Listening to what you guys are saying about unlimited grinding, level design etc. coupled with the fact I'm playing it through again on Hard mode...and I can definitely see what you mean. My first playthrough did seem like I needed to think about what I was doing but only up till a point, where it really just came down to who could one shot who and whether my pairings were buff as hell. My second playthrough has been even easier sans the first couple chapters and some unlucky crit kills from enemies.
But I can totally see how all these problems would fly over the heads of people like me though since we have nothing to compare it to. The Fire Emblem's you guys are describing sound awesome, and I'd love it if the could synergise the additions from Awakening (relationships mechanic, custom avatar) with the old, more strategic Fire Emblem gameplay and game/map design. I know I sound like part of the problem, though, so it'd also be great if Awakening would split in to it's own sub-series while the main FE series stuck to it's routes. I don't know how well that would be handled, though.
I hate to be part of the problem, but I really enjoyed the pair up mechanic. A lot of the conversation between the cast were entertaining and I liked seeing my army grow with one another as the story progressed. The time travel thing was pretty cool too I thought, but yeah, it completely broke the game if you planned it out right.
Listening to what you guys are saying about unlimited grinding, level design etc. coupled with the fact I'm playing it through again on Hard mode...and I can definitely see what you mean. My first playthrough did seem like I needed to think about what I was doing but only up till a point, where it really just came down to who could one shot who and whether my pairings were buff as hell. My second playthrough has been even easier sans the first couple chapters and some unlucky crit kills from enemies.
But I can totally see how all these problems would fly over the heads of people like me though since we have nothing to compare it to. The Fire Emblem's you guys are describing sound awesome, and I'd love it if the could synergise the additions from Awakening (relationships mechanic, custom avatar) with the old, more strategic Fire Emblem gameplay and game/map design. I know I sound like part of the problem, though, so it'd also be great if Awakening would split in to it's own sub-series while the main FE series stuck to it's routes. I don't know how well that would be handled, though.
LouisaFerre
Member
Thracia 776 remake and localization.
Yeah, the thing is that Awakening isn't a bad game at all, it's just very unlike Fire Emblem. I refused to grind on principle on my first playthrough on hard classic and to be honest I got a good level of difficulty out of it, especially around chapter 20 when I became underleveled and wasn't really using pair-ups. The pairing and support systems are front and centre and to be honest they're both pretty fun if you accept them for what they are. What the game actually tries to do it succeeds in, I'd just prefer the sequel to try to do more traditional FE stuff.
The reason you can't be mad at Awakening is that the new elements brought the sales, without which it would likely have been curtains.
This is the correct answer. I think the world is ready for what may be the best game of all time.
Man, never really paid attention to what older fans had to say about awakening, but I guess I should try out the other games if they didn't really like awakening too. It was my first and only FE game, I liked it but I felt like the game was just mediocre, and I found the cast to be boring as hell. Too anime explains that well tbh.
I'll give the older games a chance before writing off the series.
I'll give the older games a chance before writing off the series.
Speedwagon
Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Advance Wars so Sakurai would finally consider a rep for Smash.
Past Fire Emblems also had a system to flesh out the characters' relationships, the support system, but unlike Awakening, it didn't broke the game. It actually added depth to your tactical approach, since unit placement got a lot more important with the bonuses from supporting characters. The bonuses are however slight advantages. And unlike Awakening, the support conversations didn't have to involve marriage.
It's not a coincidence Awakening is sometimes referred to as a dating simulator.
You should really give the previous games a try if you loved that part about Awakening. It sounds to me that both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn will be up your alley. There's no pair-up mechanic, but the relationship building and support conversations between the characters is probably the best one in the series. It also helps that it has the best cast of characters in the series.
Well what you described was basically Fire Emblem 12 for the DS, which did not get localised. The game introduced the MyUnit mechanic and retained the core gameplay of the series. It also had a support system where it gives you access to certain items, unlike in Awakening where supports were tied to stat boosts. It also introduced the Casual/Classic modes and it had a pretty fair difficulty curve.
The biggest problem I've experienced with the series is only the fact that a majority Fire Emblem Awakening fans from the West will not and do not give the older games a chance. I honestly LOVE the Fire Emblem series and I've been a fan since the first game as it was my very first RPG. I want more people to experience it and I do understand the complaints about how hard it is to find Fire Emblem games now and how half the franchise isn't localised. It isn't a problem with other fans, but it is definitely difficult to get a hold and experience the series in the West.
The excuses that bother me are the ones that treat Awakening like a GOAT and the fans that refuse to give the older games a chance because they're too "difficult" or too "retro". I understand that the series is pretty unaccessible in terms of obtaining a game to those new to the franchise, but I've seen way too many people completely brush off the series because it's not Awakening.
Awakening did somethings good like the Rally system and Rally buffs. It also expanded on the plot by focusing more on interacting with the characters by reintroducing a relationship and second generation system that was absent since Genealogy of War on the Super Famicom. Regardless of that, it did many things wrong with the gameplay and execution. Most of the changes have already been introduced in FE12 and most of the changes in Awakening weren't for the better. The plot was not the worst, but it wasn't what you expect from the series.
I disagree that Fire Emblem Awakening is a good entry point to the series because it is not. It's so vastly different from it's predecessors that if someone were to begin and enjoy Awakening, they probably wouldn't give the rest of the series a chance for the reasons I explained above. If anything Fire Emblem 12 is the BEST entry point for any new and returning fans because you focus on the face of the franchise, Marth and it gives you the options and expands on the gameplay that is absent from Awakening.
I think both can be viable, it just depends on what you focus on. While I would like to see a fully furnished Nintendo Wars with story, it really isn't that necessary. Remember that SNES wars and GB wars really didn't have a story either. Maybe make a cheap title for the 3DS eShop. Employ a map creater and great online capability and you would have a solid game that will have a small dedicated fanbase. Fire Emblem currently is hot enough that they probably are going to do whatever they want with the series.
nephilimdj
Member
Advance war
they should port Path of Radiance to 3ds, since only 10 people bought it on gamecube
they should port Path of Radiance to 3ds, since only 10 people bought it on gamecube
You can't say 12 is the best entry point to the series when it didn't get localised, that makes no sense. 'Here, go learn Japanese and play this game, it's the best way to get into this series.' Doesn't work.
As for the Radiant Duo they were badly let down by their presentation, which scares off casuals or those who don't know the series already. I bloody loved Fire Emblem already by that stage and I still found the first one hard to get into over the first two hours because the visuals were so muddy and low-poly, the animations were so shockingly poor compared to the sprite-based versions, and the pace so slow until I disabled combat animations altogether. Of course, they ended up being utterly magnificent games, but that doesn't change that initial impression for the new player. 11 and 12 are similarly let down by horrible presentation, imo. Once you're into the game, it really doesn't matter. When you're deciding to pick up a new game or just starting out with one, it really does.
The one thing Awakening has is astonishing polish in all areas, strong tutorials and strong pacing early in the game, and these are the things that makes it so good at grabbing a new player. For that reason alone I think it's a good entry point. If someone doesn't want to go back and play an older game having played FE:A, then the truth is they were never going to play those older games anyway so nothing was lost.
Nintendo needs to get both GBA games up on the WiiU VC asap, and then I'd love a remake of the Radiant Duo with all-new visuals. (Keep the amazing character art, of course.) Then new fans really would have an appetising wealth of options to get into the series on top of Awakening.
Just bring back Strum. Von Bolt and Caulder were bad villains.
I forgot to mention that there was a translation patch for those who needed it, but mechanically and feature-wise it IS the best entry point because of all the features that were carried onto Awakening minus the gameplay. It works off what made the series what it was and modernised it.
Another reasonable entry point is Rekka no Ken, Eliwood's game. It isn't the best Fire Emblem game and the long tutorials are a bore for series veterans, but it offered a 3-way story and an entire tutorial system that helped get newcomers up to speed.
Man with how integrated the internet is now, I don't even think that such an extensive tutorial is necessary as you can find everything you need to learn online. By that logic you mind as well start with the best games in the series for the Super Famicom, Genealogy of War and Thracia 776 granted you have access to it. You can only do so much for Western fans when only half the series was localised in English.
Awakening can't be a good entry point when it's so dissimilar to the rest of the franchise. It may be for the SRPG genre and for RPGs in general, but it is not a good entry point for anyone looking to start Fire Emblem and become invested in it. It does things right, but as polished as it may be in presentation, it completely falls flat and is completely gilded. Polish can only do so much compared to the core concept and gameplay.
Honestly the thing I loved most about Awakening other than some of the characters was the Rally Skill System. Rally was a great concept as a buff for your team members and I would love to see them revisit and experiment with buffs and debuffs.
The gameplay would really improve by balancing the rally system and removing the whole pair up system for stat buffs and debuffs.
I thought the gameplay in Awakening was solid. The story might have been a push over, but the DLC turned mechanics that were overpowered into necessary tools.
I think a more apt criticism would be that they not make you pay more for the level of difficulty some of us expect.
I hate it when game series do this and now I definitely want Awakening to be it's own sub series. Having a wildly different game come out under the same name in a series and having that take over the franchise is horrible to older fans.
No need to worry about the rest of the series, ever since I finished Awakening I've been hankering for some more Fire Emblem, even if I do know it's probably going to be different from what I've played. The two Radiant games seem more similar than I'd thought they'd be though, since I thought the support conversations where born from Awakening.
The only problem is trying to find games for a decent price here in the UK. A quick search on Amazon shows up results ranging from £80 at the cheapest up to a couple hundred pounds, and they're not even PAL games. I'm seeing some better prices on eBay, but I still just can't afford them right now. I'm considering the one the the Wii U VC in the near future, but I was kind of hoping for portability.
Anyway, I don't wanna keep off topic here for two long, so I'll leave that there before I cause anyone trouble. Sorry! Thanks for answering my questions and giving me some more information on the series. I'll definitely be checking out some of the older games some time in the future since I loved Awakening so much, and you can bet any future FE games are gonna be a day one purchase from me. Let's just hope the runaway success of Awakening doesn't stray the series too far from it's roots.
OmegaSmash
Member
A new (and good) Paper Mario.
The Wheel of Fortune
Member
I like to think that they are making one right now.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I'd love another Advance Wars.
I don't give a shit about whether its cartoony style or grimdark DoR style, but I'd prefer the balance of DoR over the complete brokenness that was Dual Strike if it has online multiplayer.
I want it on a handheld and not a home console too.
I don't give a shit about whether its cartoony style or grimdark DoR style, but I'd prefer the balance of DoR over the complete brokenness that was Dual Strike if it has online multiplayer.
I want it on a handheld and not a home console too.
Pretty, pretty please.
I think Awakening was the "Fuck it, we'll make it for everyone" game. Previous Fire Emblem games, while fun, are extremely intimidating, specially for the people that hate losing their characters or missing something, since recruiting some characters required pretty much a guide. The truth is the franchise was dying (As told by the Iwata Asks) and Awakening was supposed to be the series Swan Song, their Final Fantasy, if you will. So obviously they tried to make the most welcoming game possible by removing the most intimidating aspects of the game: Hardcore Strategy and Permadeath,
It IS the perfect entry point to the series for casual gamers, just because they made the battle system make sense for a newbie player. be sure than if you give them the Fire Emblem for GBA or Sacred Stones, they'll be able to play it and enjoy it as it is, I was able to confirm this with, so far, 3 of my friends and my girlfriend who have played the game and enjoyed it so far, one of them already finished it and loved it.
Awakening is the Mario RPG of Strategy games. Its coated in a friendly anime aesthetic to bring new fans, but that is how we get them to enjoy hard Strategy.
It IS the perfect entry point to the series for casual gamers, just because they made the battle system make sense for a newbie player. be sure than if you give them the Fire Emblem for GBA or Sacred Stones, they'll be able to play it and enjoy it as it is, I was able to confirm this with, so far, 3 of my friends and my girlfriend who have played the game and enjoyed it so far, one of them already finished it and loved it.
Awakening is the Mario RPG of Strategy games. Its coated in a friendly anime aesthetic to bring new fans, but that is how we get them to enjoy hard Strategy.
Wenger'sBakedBaguettes
Member
Fire Emblem to make the franchise even more popular than what it already has become, but then Advance Wars when things become a bit stagnant.
I'll admit I'd want to see AW first since you haven't had any game in it for years now but FE is having such a good run now and you don't want to ruin that.
I'll admit I'd want to see AW first since you haven't had any game in it for years now but FE is having such a good run now and you don't want to ruin that.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Advance Emblem.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Neither. I'll let them finish Project STEAM first