Wow. The accuracy in this statement is astonishing.
Neil Druckmann talks about Nathan Drake mass murderer discussion, calls out NeoGAF
- Thread starter Dawg
- Start date
Wow. The accuracy in this statement is astonishing.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
This. Whoever doesn't see that Neil was joking is an absolute moron.
staticneuron
Member
No, his response is that games are stylized fiction world and that is accepted along with the presentation and tone.
And you are saying that films don't have people being mowed down by the tons? How old are you? Did you watch any action films of the eighties? Hell, did you see the last rambo movie or the last expendable's movie? Not all movies go for realism so it is incredibly silly to use that as a point of comparison.
I agree with him.
+Nathan Drake kills only armed men never civilians (like you can do in the infamous No Russian mission in MW2) mainly in self defence situations. These are always mercenaries or pirates working for some criminals. I don't see it as mass murder their death is occupational hazard.
+Nathan Drake kills only armed men never civilians (like you can do in the infamous No Russian mission in MW2) mainly in self defence situations. These are always mercenaries or pirates working for some criminals. I don't see it as mass murder their death is occupational hazard.
Schrade
Member
1) The Uncharted series are fun games and have gotten great critical acclaim.
2) They are Sony exclusives
That's all it takes for some folks to bring up stupid points like this.
I mean this forum has lots of joke accounts and countless others trying to troll the threads. Look at the Order 1866 and DriveClub threads. Always people coming in there trying to stir shit up.
I just added some more data about the trophies of Uncharted 1.
Weapon trophies alone are about killing 550 people in cold blood.
There are 14 trophies about collecting treasure. 30 about killing people and 4 about difficult settings. That's kinda embarassing and also shows where the focus of Uncharted games is.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Lord I have to bail, statements like this are going to be the death of me
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Harsh, but I have to agree. It's just so obvious.
Yep, or Commando, etc. Wasn't there a parody of this, maybe in Hot Shots 2 or something, where they showed the mooks body count of those movies?
As you said, it's a matter of fitting the tone. If you try to sound too serious and sober and still have this huge body count, then yeah, it'll be silly (again: see Tomb Raider 2013). In a pulp action adventure story, it shouldn't even raise an eyebrow.
Edit:
Oh dear, are you serious? Argument by... trophies? It's a third person shooter action/adventure game, of course trophies are gonna be about shooting stuff! -_- Though "collecting treasure" is a story theme, from a gameplay point of view it's a minor, optional element. What the hell is your point?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Eh, he used a movie as an example.
NullPointer
Member
On my last playthrough I stumbled upon two of them.
The first was in a downtown intersection which was being watched over by some guards on a blasted out second floor. On ground level was a shitton of car husks and a bookstore with those explosive trap-lines set on the doorways near a few roving guards.
I snuck through the bookstore and took out the remaining ground level guards while completely out of sight of the second floor overwatch, made my way around the corner to the fire escape, but couldn't activate it. I wandered around for a while trying to figure out what I missed but had no luck. SO I went back, snuck upstairs and took out the few guards there. Once I turned the corner, Ellie talked about a scene with some dead bodies and I was able to boost her up to the fire escape so she could drop the ladder.
The second time was in Winter, after Ellie loses her horse and has to hoof it on foot. She eventually comes up to a lodge with some guards patrolling outside. I took them down and found a side entrance into the building, which also had some enemies. I took them all out and got stuck looking for where to go next. I eventually found the door out but it wouldn't open. Why? Because there was still one guard sneaking around outside. I had to time a shot to take him down through the slats covering the windows (I didn't know any way to get out to where he was yet), but once I downed him the door unlocked and I was able to continue.
Both of those were situations where I thought I should have been able to just continue, as I was safe and hadn't been detected by the enemies, but the game forced me to go out of my way to kill every last person on the scene before letting me move on.
I snuck through the bookstore and took out the remaining ground level guards while completely out of sight of the second floor overwatch, made my way around the corner to the fire escape, but couldn't activate it. I wandered around for a while trying to figure out what I missed but had no luck. SO I went back, snuck upstairs and took out the few guards there. Once I turned the corner, Ellie talked about a scene with some dead bodies and I was able to boost her up to the fire escape so she could drop the ladder.
The second time was in Winter, after Ellie loses her horse and has to hoof it on foot. She eventually comes up to a lodge with some guards patrolling outside. I took them down and found a side entrance into the building, which also had some enemies. I took them all out and got stuck looking for where to go next. I eventually found the door out but it wouldn't open. Why? Because there was still one guard sneaking around outside. I had to time a shot to take him down through the slats covering the windows (I didn't know any way to get out to where he was yet), but once I downed him the door unlocked and I was able to continue.
Both of those were situations where I thought I should have been able to just continue, as I was safe and hadn't been detected by the enemies, but the game forced me to go out of my way to kill every last person on the scene before letting me move on.
Jack Scofield
Member
Oh no, a third-person shooter involves shooting.
Not really, stealth was a component in UC2 and UC3. The problem was that it sucked balls in both. So UC4 having working stealth isn't so much them reacting to the killing discussion but rather fixing a broken element of previous entries.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I don't know what point your trying to make but it's almost sad that you researched that
SolidSnakex
Member
It's an action game/shooter, of course the focus is on shooting. So how is that embarrassing? The problem is that some people want Uncharted to be something it was never intended to be. It's not supposed to be like Tomb Raider on the PSone. It's a shooter that has some platforming and puzzle solving elements.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Again guys I'm not knocking the design of these games. Shooting is the easiest way to connect a player to the game world. That's not a knock on the design from my perspective. That's just the reality.
It is infinitely easier to connect a player to your world through such actions. But even though that is true I'd still like to see other approaches to design. Which is what has me excited about Uncharted 4. If I had a PS3 I would have bought and loved the Uncharted series. No doubt. The "ludonarrative dissonance" is something that I think should have weight, but only to a fault. If it leads to a less than desirable experience, throw out an extra hundred bad guys to mow down.
The game portion of videogame should always be tantamount.
It is infinitely easier to connect a player to your world through such actions. But even though that is true I'd still like to see other approaches to design. Which is what has me excited about Uncharted 4. If I had a PS3 I would have bought and loved the Uncharted series. No doubt. The "ludonarrative dissonance" is something that I think should have weight, but only to a fault. If it leads to a less than desirable experience, throw out an extra hundred bad guys to mow down.
The game portion of videogame should always be tantamount.
That's what I'm saying though.
Dumbass statements like this is why Neil's statement about ignoring GAF is so right. Even it he was half-joking.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Thats cause your a logical thinking human being
Boy can you miss a point like a champ.
Always-honest
Banned
It's kinda sweet what he says. Ignore Neogaf as much as you can.
Love Deterrence
Member
I don't disagree with him at all. But who cares? They're fun games. That's all that really matters, and if it wasn't, people wouldn't be excited for the fourth mainline entry.
Version 3.0
Member
It was a subset of that, which is basically the opposite problem, which bothered me in Uncharted 2. Yes, I killed approximately 800 guys (IIRC). It's a game, the conflict is fighting/shooting to the death, fine. Sold.
What bothered me is the cutscene near the end. I creep up and peek over an edge at the mastermind bad guy, fully intending to shoot him in the head and end all this...and a cutscene plays where Drake can't bring himself to shoot someone in cold blood.
Now the game's narrative and the cutscenes' narrative are at odds with each other. That's the problem. Not the long killing spree, that's nothing more than a videogame joke, like characters who repeat themselves or enemies dropping food/ammo, or whatever. But the Uncharted games attempt a cinematic narrative, and that narrative shouldn't conflict with the game's narrative.
Indiana Jones kills a bunch of Nazis, sure. He's the good guy. They're the bad guys. He believes it, we believe it, no problem.
But Indiana Jones doesn't balk at killing a bad guy for no reason. The movie contrives something - a hostage, an artifact at stake, she's a beautiful woman he's recently slept with - something.
This isn't a problem specific to Uncharted, of course. Games have this problem all the time.
What bothered me is the cutscene near the end. I creep up and peek over an edge at the mastermind bad guy, fully intending to shoot him in the head and end all this...and a cutscene plays where Drake can't bring himself to shoot someone in cold blood.
Now the game's narrative and the cutscenes' narrative are at odds with each other. That's the problem. Not the long killing spree, that's nothing more than a videogame joke, like characters who repeat themselves or enemies dropping food/ammo, or whatever. But the Uncharted games attempt a cinematic narrative, and that narrative shouldn't conflict with the game's narrative.
Indiana Jones kills a bunch of Nazis, sure. He's the good guy. They're the bad guys. He believes it, we believe it, no problem.
But Indiana Jones doesn't balk at killing a bad guy for no reason. The movie contrives something - a hostage, an artifact at stake, she's a beautiful woman he's recently slept with - something.
This isn't a problem specific to Uncharted, of course. Games have this problem all the time.
I couldn't find a body count for the uncharted games, but this GAF thread says it's 884 in Uncharted 2.
With 12 hours, that's 1,22 kills/minute. In his most violent film, Temple of Doom, Indy killed 21 guys. That's 0,17 kills/minute. 0,95 and 0,10 in Raiders and Last Crusade, respectively.
The comparison is just silly.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Come on dude, this isn't an Uncharted-only thing
Omg, that fucking gif
Uno Venova
Banned
Of course, I am glad no one takes it seriously.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Ludonarritive Dissonance is a real problem that some games face. Uncharted isn't one of those game.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Fair enough.
Part of me hopes an Uncharted Trilogy pack releases on PS4. So I can experience the entire series when I've got one. It definitely won't bother me to the same degree as it does others. At worst I'll think "That was macabre." after a quip.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I actually agree with that. I found that scene to be really, really dumb. Now there's some ambiguity as to whether he was
hesitating because those guardians were around and he was just considering his odds, but IMO having the guardians kill Lazarevic was pretty much a cop-out to avoid having to show Drake finish him off
Refreshment.01
Member
i think Drukman (apologize for spelling) answer speaks for itself, and it is kind of ironic that people proclaim Naughty Dog as an studio pushing videogame narrative and story telling in new directions, when he is giving that kind of answer. ND is juts pushing the pretty much standard (by now) method of story telling to new heights. One that encapsulates a sort of divorce between some gameplay and narrative elements.
Is not just about the killing, is about incongruencies of different elements that forms the game. If Indiana kills, it is that character doing it the person is just a passive witness of the action. But when you give the viewer agency like games do, then it is fair for the creator to provide the player with a set of tools that let them express themselves through gameplay. Im waiting for the day that ND actually is above the curve in that regard, then i' ll start talking about them as redefining the way videogame stories are comunicated.
Is not just about the killing, is about incongruencies of different elements that forms the game. If Indiana kills, it is that character doing it the person is just a passive witness of the action. But when you give the viewer agency like games do, then it is fair for the creator to provide the player with a set of tools that let them express themselves through gameplay. Im waiting for the day that ND actually is above the curve in that regard, then i' ll start talking about them as redefining the way videogame stories are comunicated.
freenudemacusers
Member
his dismissive laugh was unnerving, like that of a psychopathic mass murderer.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I think Leondexter up there brought up the largest quibble I've seen with the series.
Muffdraul
Member
A lot of people that are in GAF hate GAF.
Really weak response from Druckman.
You admit ignorance, then assume tone from an imagined opposition ("moan"). Why would anybody engage you in this?
You admit ignorance, then assume tone from an imagined opposition ("moan"). Why would anybody engage you in this?
John Kowalski
Banned
Sound advice.
I don't think it's specifically a problem for Uncharted at this point, as it's already established that it's a pulp-adventure TPS, but I also think that this kind of reasoning is too often used to justify tacking on a bunch of spurious combat to a game while not trying to explore other ways to create interesting gameplay and world interaction.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Respawning is a gameplay mechanic, killing most definitely isn't. Trying to equate the two is disingenuous. Hell, even the Mario games address his massive killing of enemies in the RPGs.
Regardless, I don't like comparing them because they're not really related gameplay wise, but in the older Tomb Raider games Lara's kills total were in the single digits so it is possible
NullPointer
Member
I dunno - it always sounded like a decent criticism. It doesn't mean you need to avoid killing in your games, it just means that games can do a better job motivating, justifying and contextualizing that stuff. Done right you end up with narrative and gameplay that are mutually reinforcing - something TLOU does pretty damn well.
Done wrong and you have a disconnect. Not a fatal disconnect of course, but you end up putting the story in its corner and the gameplay in a different one, and the two will maybe sometimes meet. GTA5's three characters and Trevor in particular was a master-stroke of an answer, as any batshit stuff you did as Trevor only reinforced his character and helped set up what a loose cannon he is to the story.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Well every The Order 1886 turned into a trainwreck except the PSX one's.
SolidSnakex
Member
Which is the only one that matters since it's the most recent and most representative of the games current form.