Neil Druckmann talks about Nathan Drake mass murderer discussion, calls out NeoGAF

The amount of shooting in Uncharted has bothered me, but not because of the "drake is a murderer" idea. The shooting mechanics in Uncharted just aren't very good at all. I think the series would be a lot better thematically and just gameplay wise if ND tried to make it more of a stealth game. Reduce the amount of ammo to amounts where you should only shoot if you have to. That way you can work around your mediocre-at-best shooting and focus more on traversal and enemy patterns.

I'm not really sure what happened with the Last of Us since that game was significantly better than anything in Uncharted. But I'm not confident that rise in quality will carry over to UC.
 
ZealousD said:
And the kill counts are way different. Somebody posted a graphic earlier where Indy kills like a dozen guys in each movie? Drake is taking out entire mercenary bands singlehandedly. Potentially hundreds of dudes.

I think TLOU is way better than the Uncharted games with how its tone works with its gameplay. Yeah, Joel kills a lot of people. But he kills a lot fewer people at once. His total kill count is way lower. The game's tone works better in establishing how all that killing might affect a character. Ludonarrative dissonance is not a problem in TLOU.
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It's also comes from this strange film envy some game fans have.

Yes, Uncharted has great characters and storytelling, but it is a game at its core, with completely different goals from a movie.

We really got to get away with this film envy. Games are games. Let them grow on their own pace. These movie comparisons are getting tired beyond belief.
 
Are people seriously saying UC has a realistic narrative? Ive only played half of the 3rd game and that is definitely not true at all
 
ChouGohan said:
Are people seriously saying UC has a realistic narrative? Ive only played half of the 3rd game and that is definitely not true at all
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Of course it doesn't. Indy is also inspired from those pulp adventure stories that were catered to young boys.

Those aren't masterpieces like Moby Dick, just fun stories, filled with crazy stuff like mummies and curses.
 
Seriously people complain about fucking everything it's getting ridiculous.

Mass murderer
no female
no blacks
no customization for your character


I think I've seen these complains in 1 month
 
Americanmushroom said:
Seriously people complain about fucking everything it's getting ridiculous.

Mass murderer
no female
no blacks
no customization for your character


I think I've seen these complains in 1 month
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So violence and lack of diversity in gaming shouldn't be addressed?

It says a lot that some people are offended that others take issue with some of this stuff.
 
Didn't they, like, come and ask NeoGAF for feedback on U3's aiming, though? So is it ignore NeoGAF as much as you can, except when they're helping fix your game?

Anyway, I thought the problem with Uncharted was not just that there is too much killing, but that the actions and words of ND (Go figure, I just joined those dots...) in the cut-scenes don't mesh with what he does during the actual gameplay.

You can't dodge criticism just because 'it's a game'. As a developer, you create a story; you create the gameplay and if they don't mesh, then discussion about that contrast is open season, imho.

EDIT: Ok, so the 'feedback' they asked for wasn't exactly as I remembered, but still.
 
It's just a game.. it's okay that Drake kills the badguys, of course.


BUT DO YOU REMEMBER IN UNCHARTED 2... in the museum sequence.
I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.

I was shocked and thinking.. what the hell, Drake!?

I didn't question any of it in the first game or up until this moment.. but BAM. Drake kills an innocent man and doesn't think twice about it!
 
DemiMatt said:
I can honestly say while on holiday some Naughty Dog artists, they absolutely hate Neogaf.
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When some people enter into the "armchair developer" mode, I can't say I disagree with them.

I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.
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To be fair, he drops him into the water and swims away, not some infinite abyss like latter in the game.

And also, he goes 'wtf' at Flynn giving him a weapon, then telling him to relax since it's a tranq dart gun.

The pseudo-intellectuals have to bitch about their ludonarrative dissonance though!
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WHY WOULD YOSHI GET BABY MARIO OUT OF THAT BUBBLE AND HOP HIM BACK? THE GAME ISN'T ALLOWING ME TO CHOOSE
YOSHI IS ACTUALLY A SLAVE FOR MARIO, WHO IS WHITE
WHAT ARE THE MORAL IMPLICATIONS OF YOSHI GETTING HIGH ON THOSE WHITE BALLS THAT MAKE HIM FART.
THIS IS A PROBLEM, GAF.
 
Polioliolio said:
It's just a game.. it's okay that Drake kills the badguys, of course.


BUT DO YOU REMEMBER IN UNCHARTED 2... in the museum sequence.
I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.

I was shocked and thinking.. what the hell, Drake!?

I didn't question any of it in the first game or up until this moment.. but BAM. Drake kills an innocent man and doesn't think twice about it!
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He swam away.
 
Pappasman said:
So violence and lack of diversity in gaming shouldn't be addressed?

It says a lot that some people are offended that others take issue with some of this stuff.
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"Video games are art. Just look at Naughty Dog games."
"Why does Nathan Drake kill hundreds of people without a thought?"
"Geez, it's just a game, nerd."
 
Polioliolio said:
It's just a game.. it's okay that Drake kills the badguys, of course.


BUT DO YOU REMEMBER IN UNCHARTED 2... in the museum sequence.
I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.

I was shocked and thinking.. what the hell, Drake!?

I didn't question any of it in the first game or up until this moment.. but BAM. Drake kills an innocent man and doesn't think twice about it!
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it's cool though because it's supposed to be funny! remember when the other nathan drake made a joke? that's just good writing.

uncharted 2 has bad characters and naughty dog didn't even know who their best one was (elena) because they tried to fridge her.

WrenchNinja said:
He swam away.
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then it's attempted murder.
 
Branduil said:
I do find it ironic that some ND fans are basically telling ND to not try and improve their storytelling. If they had listened to that advice then Uncharted and TLoU would never exist in the first place.
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Eh? This isn't about storytelling, it's about gameplay mechanics. In a third-person shooter you'll have to shoot many many baddies. You can argue that perhaps Uncharted, due to its tone, should be more platformer/puzzle and less an action/shooter, but even that is a different discussion than storytelling and writing.

Polioliolio said:
It's just a game.. it's okay that Drake kills the badguys, of course.


BUT DO YOU REMEMBER IN UNCHARTED 2... in the museum sequence.
I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.

I was shocked and thinking.. what the hell, Drake!?

I didn't question any of it in the first game or up until this moment.. but BAM. Drake kills an innocent man and doesn't think twice about it!
Click to expand...
But that guard doesn't die. He swims away safely. Look down next time. ;)
 
Pappasman said:
So violence and lack of diversity in gaming shouldn't be addressed?

It says a lot that some people are offended that others take issue with some of this stuff.
Click to expand...

I think we should let developers do what they think is best. The constant complaining is getting really annoying and it blocks the developers visions to do what THEY prefer. And if you don't like it their vision... then it's just not for you.

For the violence part, there's PG ratings for that.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Eh? This isn't about storytelling, it's about gameplay mechanics. In a third-person shooter you'll have to shoot many many baddies. You can argue that perhaps Uncharted, due to its tone, should be more platformer/puzzle and less an action/shooter, but even that is a different discussion than storytelling and writing.
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In video games, gameplay is the storytelling.
 
Polioliolio said:
It's just a game.. it's okay that Drake kills the badguys, of course.


BUT DO YOU REMEMBER IN UNCHARTED 2... in the museum sequence.
I was stunned when Drake was sneaking around, hanging off the roof, and pulled off an innocent Museum guard to his fucking death.

I was shocked and thinking.. what the hell, Drake!?

I didn't question any of it in the first game or up until this moment.. but BAM. Drake kills an innocent man and doesn't think twice about it!
Click to expand...
He throws him into water, and you can clearly see the guard swimming away afterwards. Throughout the entire intro sequence you kill no one, only incapacitating them. They specifically went to great lengths to have Nate take on everyone non-lethally before they were threatening his life.
 
What I don't get is why Uncharted gets singled out so much for that. Can someone explain this? What is so special or unique about Uncharted games that the protagonist gets singled out for shooting bad guys?

Branduil said:
In video games, gameplay is the storytelling.
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Um... what
 
He really hits the nail on the head. Great explanation about the necessities for a stylized medium, the realities of a 7-12 hour story with action beats, etc.

It still won't stop some people from trying to criticize Uncharted for being a "mass murder simulator" though while giving other games a free pass. But whatever, those people aren't exactly worth the effort of accommodating anyway.
 
Americanmushroom said:
I think we should let developers do what they think is best. The constant complaining is getting really annoying and it blocks the developers visions to do what THEY prefer. And if you don't like it their vision... then it's just not for you.

For the violence part, there's PG ratings for that.
Click to expand...

developers are problem-solvers, not artists. imposing limits is a good way to get creative juices flowing. that is, if they're actually good problem-solvers.

Morrigan Stark said:
What I don't get is why Uncharted gets singled out so much for that. Can someone explain this? What is so special or unique about Uncharted games that the protagonist gets singled out for shooting bad guys?
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i think it gets singled out because of the critical acclaim. it makes others pause and ask why.

if this is supposed to be the high standard we're supposed to adhere to, it's a pretty low bar to be honest.
 
KalBalboa said:
He really hits the nail on the head. Great explanation about the necessities for a stylized medium, the realities of a 7-12 hour story with action beats, etc.

It still won't stop some people from trying to criticize Uncharted for being a "mass murder simulator" though while giving other games a free pass. But whatever, those people aren't exactly worth the effort of accommodating anyway.
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Perfectly summed up.
 
Not The Droid You're Looking For said:
When it comes to petty stuff like this, it is best just to ignore GAF.

A lot of people that aren't in GAF hate GAF.
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Never really understood that mentality. A lot of our threads tend to be filled with good discussion from time to time... we're vitriolic because a lot of us who post regularly are really passionate about games and like to see them do as well as they can.

Also, GIFs.
 
Americanmushroom said:
Seriously people complain about fucking everything it's getting ridiculous.

Mass murderer
no female
no blacks
no customization for your character


I think I've seen these complains in 1 month
Click to expand...

The lack of minority representation in games is totally different than some bullshit excuse a troll uses to dismiss a game. "murdering" in gaming is like the stupidest thing I have ever read about gaming.
 
Americanmushroom said:
Seriously people complain about fucking everything it's getting ridiculous.

Mass murderer
no female
no blacks
no customization for your character


I think I've seen these complains in 1 month
Click to expand...

I don't really care about mass murdering heroes, but why is it more legitimate to complain about 900p than no women and minorities in gaming though.
 
AniHawk said:
i would fucking love an uncharted game where the dude had future sight and shit like that. not even kidding.
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Maybe with all of those months of planning before the heist, they saw the requirements for guard duty at the museum and being able to swim was one of them!
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Eh? This isn't about storytelling, it's about gameplay mechanics. In a third-person shooter you'll have to shoot many many baddies. You can argue that perhaps Uncharted, due to its tone, should be more platformer/puzzle and less an action/shooter, but even that is a different discussion than storytelling and writing.


But that guard doesn't die. He swims away safely. Look down next time. ;)
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(1) Let's not even touch the Arkham games where Batman utterly destroys (but doesn't directly kill) anything in his way... I'm sure those thugs that just got punctured lungs, internal bleeding, or were paralyzed because you pulled a dive bomb maneuver on them from over 250ft in the air are really going to pull through by the time the AMBULANCE shows up... if it even can.

Games are worse off when they start to make something of it being an issue (like the TR2013 BS in the beginning) and then forget about it for awhile only to suddenly bring it up later as an aside. I mean, this applies to everything too, not just being a mass murderer in the game (like Lara's puncture wound affecting her at times and at other times having it not even impede her at all).

The "mass murder" thing is everywhere. I've killed probably tens of thousands of law enforcement officers in my 450 hours of PAYDAY 2.

(2) I dunno, man. That fall is probably about the same height (if not higher) than a drop off our local bridge... which more than a few have jumped off of to commit suicide.
 
Heck, to this day the only 'murder simulator' game I know is Manhunt.

And then again, the character isn't exactly killing because he wants to, but for escaping some horrible scenario that some sick guy prepared for his amusement.
 
KieferCrimson said:
Heck, to this day the only 'murder simulator' game I know is Manhunt.

And then again, the character isn't exactly killing because he wants to, but for escaping some horrible scenario that some sick guy prepared for his amusement.
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and that man... was nathan drake.
 
The only game I experience this kind "narrative dissonance" in are the gta games. Trevor is the only character I see who would go on insane killing sprees in those games.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
What I don't get is why Uncharted gets singled out so much for that. Can someone explain this? What is so special or unique about Uncharted games that the protagonist gets singled out for shooting bad guys?
Click to expand...

I honestly think it's weird too. I understood the complaints with GTAIV, where you had a protagonist who was all about getting out of the criminal life in cutscenes, who then turned around and started running over pedestrians and shouting "You fucking deserved it!" the second players took control of him. That was a contradiction.

The tone of the Uncharted series, and their obvious cinematic/serial inspirations, all but excuse them of a similar contradiction. From practically the opening moments of being with Nathan Drake we understand he has no problem shooting people who are shooting at him and that he gets into these situations frequently as part of his over the top, globetrotting, treasure-hunting adventures.

It seems like one of those things where someone said it, and others just latched on and repeated it even if it wasn't necessarily a well thought out or warranted issue in this instance. Just like when the term "luno-narrative dissonance" was thrown around with literally every AAA game for awhile there about a year ago before almost disappearing from discussions all together.
 
Drake is whatever, but Niko complaining about having to kill someone in one of the early missions in GTA IV after killing a good many dudes in prior missions just came off as so laughable. Massive amounts of murder followed by a completely different story tone can be weird if they're handled badly. Timing and gameplay tone should just be considered when writing a scene.
 
I think it's entirely missing the point though.

The reason I've always thought the whole mass murder discussion came up is because you tend to find him killing more than actually exploring. It's always what bugged me about the games. He's meant to be an explorer, an adventurer, travelling to uncharted locations finding treasures and lost artifacts, and yet I feel like I spend most of the game shooting. Given the games concept, I don't think the game should be mostly shooting.
 
bananafactory said:
I always thought it was just a joke. I don't think there's many people that seriously have a problem with it.
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I do. I also think Neils response to this question sucks. But I'm not the majority and it doesn't matter in the end because Uncharted is a very popular well received franchise.
 
Zafir said:
I think it's entirely missing the point though.

The reason I've always thought the whole mass murder discussion came up is because you tend to find him killing more than actually exploring. It's always what bugged me about the games. He's meant to be an explorer, an adventurer, travelling to uncharted locations finding treasures and lost artifacts, and yet I feel like I spend most of the game shooting. Given the games concept, I don't think the game should be mostly shooting.
Click to expand...

Its a 3rd person shooter. Not a point and click adventure in a 3D rendered world solving puzzles.
 
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