Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
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BertramCooper
Banned
This week's episode was lousy.
SK had an expert on a few weeks ago who said that anecdotes about someone's character from acquaintances are basically worthless in investigations like these, so what does she do? She spends an entire episode on anecdotes about Adnan's character from acquaintances.
Definitely agree that the podcast should have ended a few episodes ago, and SK should have finished the whole thing before it started airing.
SK had an expert on a few weeks ago who said that anecdotes about someone's character from acquaintances are basically worthless in investigations like these, so what does she do? She spends an entire episode on anecdotes about Adnan's character from acquaintances.
Definitely agree that the podcast should have ended a few episodes ago, and SK should have finished the whole thing before it started airing.
Bobs Big Boy
Member
This must be incredibly hard to find an end for.
ZanzibarBreeze
Member
The season should have ended two episodes ago -- it's just dragging along now with fluff. Half an hour on Adnan stealing from a collection dish is not time well spent in my opinion.
Related to the ethics/morality discussion, I found these tweets from Jon Ronson interesting and compelling:
Related to the ethics/morality discussion, I found these tweets from Jon Ronson interesting and compelling:
How does this end though? A question posed to Adan and the listeners? A statement of almost guilt by someone that in terms of the case would be useless or impossible to prove? Probably neither of the two, just a number of strings left to blow in the wind. There's no neat, cut and dry ending coming. Just a question that needs to be answered but won't and it feels like we've been skirting it the closer we get to the end of this season.
Which is why the entire series should have been produced before releasing it.
If it was done that way, she could have constructed a cohesive thesis and closing, if not about the case than about the justice system, human psychology or something else. I don't need the case to be solved when this is all done. That's clearly not the point. I just want a closing thought that makes the whole season feel like it had a reason to exist as a whole. As it stands, it just feels like kind of a mess thrown on tape. Honestly, the show as it stands isn't worth the damage it might cause to the lives of those involved. Maybe she'll kill it next week and it'll all make sense, but I doubt it. My worst fears about the show seem to be coming true.
There's two questions here. 1) What is the true consensus or majority opinion on the community and 2) What do you personally perceive that opinion to be. I don't know that I'd read GAF as basically convinced of his guilt. But from the start Adnan's guilt hasn't been much of a focus for me so I'm probably projecting my own attitude of "the guilt question isn't interesting" on lots of people.
Thanks for sharing. That's a useful idea, but I kinda got caught on "I agree with @michelledean that of course there are degrees, but fundamentally this is about how you feel about nonfiction.". It's weird to acknowledge the value of considering the spectrum but then reject it out of hand in the same sentence. For me, the whole project lives and dies in those degrees. What crosses the line, what doesn't, why does she choose to cross the line, how much does it matter when she does.
Bobs Big Boy
Member
Yes, it feels the provocative part of the story is in begging new questions about a closed subject. It does not seek an ending and so perhaps the best that can be done is to reflect on what is valuable and universally appealing about the process of investigating the story.
There can still be something valuable about not having a thesis canned, that it could have lead the series to the places it has gone, that might not have been found with some foregone conclusion.
I think the investigative reporting has been wonderful, the general narrative however has been by and large getting too murky the further it goes though. Once the initial groundwork for the case was laid out, the lines for each side of the prosecution/defense were drawn and the new experts were brought in, we're left to wade through what seems like completely inconsequential material.
The whole process was engrossing on the way up, but now that we've hit what is basically the end of the line in terms of material I just get the sense that they don't really have a plan. Like, well we're here, now what? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they'll absolutely nail it and find some way to close this out in a meaningful way, maybe not. It's obvious we're not going to get some hard conclusion to this case, and it absolutely doesn't need to be solved obviously. That was never the point, but it just feels like we're wandering around sort of aimlessly now. Like pack up, go home, call it a day and pat yourself on the back for basically ripping all these old wounds back up for no reason.
Did not attempt to call Hae after she went missing. Not enough to convict someone on, but it seems like a massive massive red flag. His excuse is "Oh but we were all telling each other about this at school!". Except that Hae's disappearance was followed by a snowstorm that kept school closed for a coupe days, followed by the weekend.....so it's not like everyone was that in touch with each other.
So the fact that I was being facetious just sailed right on past.
real_slime
Banned
I kind of wish I hadn't decided to look up the Serial discussion here. There's a lot of swirling negativity which is coming from pretty harsh limitations on what the series 'should' be and the second I see someone branding Koenig a 'scumbag' or any other kind of insult, I write them off completely because her entire style of presenting and dealing with the people she talks to is completely decent and considerate. I've got other ideas about where that kind of backlash comes from that I'm not gonna go into because fuck it.
One thing I will say is I did find the segment on Adnan's stealing from the mosque to be pretty much irrelevant to my opinion on him as relates to the murder conviction, since I do think this kind of thing is something dumb kids do and later grow out of. I also think any connection between that kind of behaviour is spurious, and throughout most of it I was actually thinking this is beneath the intelligence of the show to give a spotlight. As a mention, sure, but to go into detail onto whether it was true or not - basically I was with Adnan in his frustration that this was being dragged up.
So that's the one major segment I've found to be lacking, especially coming so late in the series with us now knowing the story as well as we do, and the parameters of the story being as defined as they are - I was really asking, why am I hearing about this? Am I going to hear about the time Jay absconded with a bunch of porn dvds from his job next? Thankfully not! Although actually that would've been more interesting since we know less about Jay despite the episode which focused on him,
However I did find the episode on Mr. S to be interesting, and it may turn out to be quite irrelevant to the case overall - but I suppose the difference is that it COULD be relevant, and spending time on it felt worthwhile, unlike the money stealing diversion. I was also happy to get some spotlight on Adnan's lawyer, which was well teased throughout the show with the extremely grating clips of her at the trial sprinkled in here and there. I really didn't like her approach and one of the most irksome things about that is Adnan might have been scuttled by a bad defense. He seems pretty convinced she did a good job, though, so I can't put too much weight on my dislike her of her presentation and questioning style, but it bothers me that the jury probably did. Fucking juries, man. What a flawed way of determining someone's guilt or innocence.
I'm sure they have something good in store for the final episode. I'm not pretending to have a worthwhile opinion on whether Adnan is guilty or not, I'm just a fan of the show and interested in the story. I do hope that he isn't. I would like if the final episode had more answers for me than that, but this is real life, and I don't necessarily expect it to.
One thing I will say is I did find the segment on Adnan's stealing from the mosque to be pretty much irrelevant to my opinion on him as relates to the murder conviction, since I do think this kind of thing is something dumb kids do and later grow out of. I also think any connection between that kind of behaviour is spurious, and throughout most of it I was actually thinking this is beneath the intelligence of the show to give a spotlight. As a mention, sure, but to go into detail onto whether it was true or not - basically I was with Adnan in his frustration that this was being dragged up.
So that's the one major segment I've found to be lacking, especially coming so late in the series with us now knowing the story as well as we do, and the parameters of the story being as defined as they are - I was really asking, why am I hearing about this? Am I going to hear about the time Jay absconded with a bunch of porn dvds from his job next? Thankfully not! Although actually that would've been more interesting since we know less about Jay despite the episode which focused on him,
However I did find the episode on Mr. S to be interesting, and it may turn out to be quite irrelevant to the case overall - but I suppose the difference is that it COULD be relevant, and spending time on it felt worthwhile, unlike the money stealing diversion. I was also happy to get some spotlight on Adnan's lawyer, which was well teased throughout the show with the extremely grating clips of her at the trial sprinkled in here and there. I really didn't like her approach and one of the most irksome things about that is Adnan might have been scuttled by a bad defense. He seems pretty convinced she did a good job, though, so I can't put too much weight on my dislike her of her presentation and questioning style, but it bothers me that the jury probably did. Fucking juries, man. What a flawed way of determining someone's guilt or innocence.
I'm sure they have something good in store for the final episode. I'm not pretending to have a worthwhile opinion on whether Adnan is guilty or not, I'm just a fan of the show and interested in the story. I do hope that he isn't. I would like if the final episode had more answers for me than that, but this is real life, and I don't necessarily expect it to.
Ultimately at the end of all this-I can't say with any certainty that Adnan is guilty or innocent, but what really sticks for me is that the trial seemed unfair. The prosecution's case was very flimsy and there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime other than the handprint on the map. If anything there is certainly reasonable doubt, and because of that I just don't understand how the jury convicted him.
I think the reason she brought up the stealing thing in this late episode was to offer a sort of "balanced" examination of Adnan's character. When she was originally sourcing opinions on Adnan from people who knew him growing up, she likely heard 99% good things from everyone in the mosque community, and mostly good things from those who knew him outside of it. Of the few negative things she was told, most likely the "rumors" of Adnan stealing from the mosque's donation box was amongst them, but no one she spoke to could actually verify it beyond "friend of a friend". Those negative rumors she heard regarding his character she likely did not want to actually include in her story without some sort of corroboration from witnesses who could verify that they were at least present at the time of the incident(s).
So, if Sarah could do it over again, I'm betting she'd want to put that story up front when she was describing how Adnan was perceived as a "good guy" as a way to help balance that image and bring him back down to earth. Of course, it does little to influence his murder case (and might actually help provide some support against the theory that he was a psychopath if he was skimming just a little from the till and using it to hang out with friends), but at least it would offer a more satisfying balanced narrative.
So, if Sarah could do it over again, I'm betting she'd want to put that story up front when she was describing how Adnan was perceived as a "good guy" as a way to help balance that image and bring him back down to earth. Of course, it does little to influence his murder case (and might actually help provide some support against the theory that he was a psychopath if he was skimming just a little from the till and using it to hang out with friends), but at least it would offer a more satisfying balanced narrative.
Honestly? I expected the Korra fans to be the ones melting down this week.
We're already too used to disappointment to melt down.
Jugendstil
Member
I would qualify that while I don't always agree with some of what the show is doing, I don't dislike Sarah Koenig or think she's a bad person. She's a very engaging narrator and talented journalist. I just think the entire show has snowballed into something larger than anyone producing it expected and that has a lot of potential consequences for the people actually involved in the case. Being critical of the show isn't a condemnation of Koenig's character. I think the fact it has generated so much debate and critique makes it that much more interesting.
Which is why I think that it will be a while before we get another murder case. I'm still pulling for Silk Road in season 2.
I think they'll have something to bridge the gap, but yeah. I wouldn't expect S2 anytime soon.
backflip10019
Member
God damn.
Just_myles
Member
Not sure man. This is tough. Everyone's story was shaky. Also these are teenagers confronted by the police so their stories imo willl never be accurate. Especially due to time.
"My name is Passive Agressive McGee" --you, looking at yourself in the mirror every morning.
It's funny you say this-I actually had a nightmare like this for real last night-for the first time in my life-that I was going to prison for a crime I didn't commit and I was having to say goodbye to my wife and daughter. It was awful-no one believed me.
That being said, when I did get to prison it was like the Kyln from Guardians of the Galaxy.
err, ok.
I like that this thread includes True Detective in its title, because I imagine the finale will inspire very similar disappointments the way TD's finale did: lack of a major twist, lack of OMG ending, no wrap-everything-in-a-bow ending.
And there are others who are going to say, "well I never expected or wanted that, but I think the show should have been in the can ahead of time for a clearer beginning-middle-end structure." But why? This is a real case, a 15-year-old case that -- given the fact Adnan is still in jail and likely always will be -- has no ending. There's just a very murky, convoluted beginning and middle; why shouldn't the show reflect that? There's nothing clear about the real thing. There are filler shows, the third episode itself being one giant digression, but they matter for exactly that reason too.
Many of the complaints about Sarah Koening as a person and journalist (and racist? lol), and how the show's formatted, just seem like fairly bizarre and unfair reaches to me more often than not.
Cornballer
Member
jellies_two
Member
yes and that is the tragedy of it all.
The defense lawyer was far from the top of her game, and that trajectory only continued down.
The prosecution obliquely played a cultural card.
sparky2112
Member
That's a whole crapload of stuff to address.
When you think about it, this has got to be a very hard show to put together, simply because everyone involved has been inside the story for a year or more. The audience does not have the advantage of time; if the show mentions something and doesn't follow up on it (and there may be perfectly good reasons why the show staff dismissed something), the audience is left with more suspicion than might be warranted. Still, that list of loose threads is pretty vital, I'd think.
EDIT: And I still keep coming back to the fact that Hae's friend, who never testified, has negated the State's timeline. Taken at face value, Adnan, while quite possibly remaining Hae's killer, was, it would seem, convicted on the basis of a false timeline.
the fact that everything hangs on this fabricated timeline is insane. There's nothing definitive to it. It's not as if she was seen at 2:00 and then found dead at 4:00. Period. She was found much much later....It's absurd.
wow!
Cornballer
Member
- Funny or Die: The Last Episode Of Serial
Independant research man! There is one more episode. C'mon.
crisdecuba
Member
Regardless of the dip in how compelling each new episode is, I've found the series continually interesting. And I'm thankful that this form of podcast exists - very enjoyable.
Just saw this, was pretty great.
I listened to an interview with one of the sound producers about how he edits music into the show. he said he gets the episode in fragments on Tuesdays, so it's out here in the ether somewhere.
JeTmAn81
Member
I look forward to "Mail...kimp?" every episode.
Use-a mail chimp
Sir Garbageman
Member
Little kid is asked to read "mail chimp" and is unfamiliar with the word "chimp" and hesitantly pronounces it "kimp" during the promo at the beginning of the show. Not much to understand really.
JeTmAn81
Member
If English isn't your first language, it's probably hard to tell if the "ch" at the beginning of a word is supposed to be pronounced like it is in charm, or like it is in character.
EDIT: I quoted this to fix the picture but now when I refresh the page my image imbed is broke too so I just don't know what's happening.
That was amazing. The Adnan impression was spot on.
edit; The Gutierrez impression, dying.
rottingcore
Banned
Me and my coworkers have been listening to this podcast and discussing it on our breaks. We're all pretty much on the same page. Adnan is guilty, Jay probably had far more to do with this then he lets on.
My only concern with this podcast is that the narrator feels biased, like she WANTS him to be innocent.. even when evidence is so clearly pointing to the contrary.
Another thing that my co-workers and i agree on is that the narrator (Sarah Koenig) seems to have a weirdly semi-sexual fascination with Adnan.
Does anybody know if season 2 will be about this case, or a new case altogether? While i'd much prefer a new case - as there isn't much else that can be squeezed from this one.. i think her passion for this specific case is what keeps it interesting.
P.S.
Episode 10 was garbage.
My only concern with this podcast is that the narrator feels biased, like she WANTS him to be innocent.. even when evidence is so clearly pointing to the contrary.
Another thing that my co-workers and i agree on is that the narrator (Sarah Koenig) seems to have a weirdly semi-sexual fascination with Adnan.
Does anybody know if season 2 will be about this case, or a new case altogether? While i'd much prefer a new case - as there isn't much else that can be squeezed from this one.. i think her passion for this specific case is what keeps it interesting.
P.S.
Episode 10 was garbage.
Which evidence would this be, exactly?
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