FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
But to blame that interest solely on 'moe' being popular or whatever, is kinda disingenuous.
I've grown confused and frustrated with the "moe culture", and I need to vent.
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But to blame that interest solely on 'moe' being popular or whatever, is kinda disingenuous.
MHWilliams
Member
Just finished an episode of Denki-gai.
Owns an apartment and is clearly meant to be an older character, as the entire cast works in an 18+ manga shop.
Here's the contrast between the male and feamle characters.
And the artist can draw older-looking women.
Have you seen figure-gaf and other moe related forums? Considering how much they spend I can see why everyone's trying to create the next big moe thing to catch the nerd whales.
I think KLK was walking on a thin line between parody and the real deal and often it felt like there was no parody.
I think KLK was walking on a thin line between parody and the real deal and often it felt like there was no parody.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
hahahaha
Except people do actually criticise a lot of the stuff you are complaining about in anime, you just apparently don't go to where it happens, or just have an incredibly superficial opinion of things.
And literally almost all of that is messed up. The one think that makes it not (so) noticeable in western porn is that the women are very obviously in their mid 20's and the worst that usually happens is high school girls, where there is a disclaimer that they are at least 18. Still messed up, but Porn=/=Anime, and I don't believe these shows should be sexualising underage girls, many of whom are made to seem overly cute by being given the Moe style of being insanely shy, having big eyes, and a high pitched voice, which makes them seem even younger.
Again, not all Moe is this way, but quite a bit of it is, and I find it rather gross.
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
right? i thought i was the only one
And Denki-gai is the only example I can think of this season, or in the last few seasons.
Thats one show out of literally dozens that are airing right now. The character type certainly exists, but its hardly in every anime that exists, which was basically the claim.
Also Denki-gai is terrible.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
20 year old who looks 12 has always seemed like more of a video game localization issue than anything else to me. My problem is more with 14 year olds who look 12
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I agree with you completely, OP. Shit is creepy and weird.
Me too. Something about how it's discussed in the same manner as the weather, or what you ate for breakfast, or whatever, makes it seem like some universally accepted thing. I think most people put off by it just run away.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
This seems pretty gross...I mean the designs on their own aren't that horrible, but I think the fact they're drawn as children but work in what I assume more or less is the manga porn store is really weird.
Like...yeah, there are sitcoms like Freak and Geeks, or American Dad, where the younger characters watch a porno...but there's always a point that what they're doing isn't age appropriate, and some sort of acknowledgement that this is childlike curiosity. But this just seems to put a child (in theory) working at a porn store, and leaving it at that.
Uh, yeah, like me in this very thread. When did I say people didn't criticize it? My point is it's the fans of it who don't seem to be able to really realize why people criticize it, or respond to it without resorting to "it's fun!".
Astral/H3X
Member
I hang out in FigureGAF and I have no idea who fills those wallets.
A thin line sure, but it always seemed self aware enough that I couldn't fault it. It seemed to play off it much more than just having it and not acknowledging it. I suppose being creatively pervy is why I didn't just roll my eyes at it.
nckillthegrimace
Member
Okay. The way you framed it initially made it seem like you had an issue with programs that were more or less innocent on their face, as if that served as implicit approval from creators for fans to introduce a more erotic fan canon. Like it was all a thin veneer, and something sinister was inherently under the surface. But I guess this is actually fandom problem?
Still, in a prior post, you seemed to have more respect for fans of a fanservice-laden show about the will-they-won't-they incest relationship between a brother and his middle school sister than for fans of a show about some girls in a band, so forgive my incredulity. I think you actually have a problem with people projecting eroticism and sexuality onto things that are otherwise devoid of those things. I can see no other reason why you would be more okay with someone desiring an Oreimo character rather than a K-ON character. Neither character, despite their actions in a given show, would have any agency in these fictional relationships with fans because they don't exist. It's not about prey and predators then; I don't know what it's about. Escapism? Comfort? Freedom?
I'm curious what you are expecting ~the fans~ to say. "Oh yes this is totally for pedophiles!"?
I see lots of criticism of 'moe' from anime fans, but not from all anime fans.
Just like how you will find plenty of criticism of super hero comics from comic book fans, but there are other comic book fans who don't care or will get super defensive.
Or fans of FPS games, or whatever other thing you happen to be talking about.
You've set yourself up a strawman and then proceeded to knock it down. Which whoo hoo, good for you.
Can I use that sentence in my bachelor thesis
? I like it and right now I am planning on writing about the moe phenomenon..CadetMahoney
Member
Yes, also manga porn as a whole always surprised me as viable business. I don't think anywhere is in the world can they sell drawn sex and ppl will buy it in enough amounts off shelves to make money off it.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I really don't know what you're trying to say, you brought up how weird it'd be for people to criticize comics and games based on the assumption that they're all superheroes and shooting games, and I simply replied that people do consider both those to be saturating their medium.
I just mean, a large majority of people find "moe" creepy and off-putting...but moe fans seem to act oddly coy about it. They seem to realize there's a problem---they'll tell you the gameplay is good, it's the other fans sexualizing everything, they're one of the normal ones, etc. Like you can tell they're embarrassed by the moe elements, but then they never actually say so. That's what bothers me. I sort of think moe fans hate moe the most, ironically.
I just mean, a large majority of people find "moe" creepy and off-putting...but moe fans seem to act oddly coy about it. They seem to realize there's a problem---they'll tell you the gameplay is good, it's the other fans sexualizing everything, they're one of the normal ones, etc. Like you can tell they're embarrassed by the moe elements, but then they never actually say so. That's what bothers me. I sort of think moe fans hate moe the most, ironically.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
This was the thread, and I agree. I glanced in it and read the reactions thinking, "did I watch the same trailer as these guys? You play as a kid taking panty shots of highschool girls in a highschool and no one's batting an eye?"
As if it was totally okay.
LouisaFerre
Member
Honestly, I don't think there's any real way to verify that as an accurate perception of most moe fans. If someone is insecure about it, of course they're going to be more likely to try and make it seem more normal to others. If someone knows what it is and is perfectly fine with it, why would they really bother going out of their way to justify it to people who don't even like it?
I'd say it's a trope that can and should be used at the right time. For example, I really liked Sengoku Nadeko's arc in the monogatari series because of how it tackled the trope (plot spoilers):
.
Then, there are characters like Mikuru from the Haruhi series that are always clumsy and get bossed around (which often ends up with them getting forced into embarassing situations), which do make me cringe a bit. While I might feel bad for the characters up to a certain point, that no longer applies when the script goes out of its way to make them the butt of all jokes.
Honestly I liked K-On!, but looking back it does feel like the show constantly tried to trigger "Oh, how cute!" reactions ("Yui's so absentminded!" / "Mio's so awkward!" / "Mugi is so nice / is oddly fascinated by mundane things!"), with Azusa being some sort of Mio #2 on steroids for me. It's really like every single character trait was being played up for cuteness (other than Ritsu's, but that might just have been me), which feels a bit vexing now. Still, I felt like it was a good series for me due to being character-driven (even though the characters barely changed), and the light-heartedness was a welcome change from having gone through Higurashi recently.
I feel it's no different than shows playing up their edginess or fanservice elements just for the sake of it (they're all cringe-inducing). I don't ask for every piece of characterization to be tackled in an interesting way througout a show's plot, but I kind of shrug every time something gratuitious happens out of place.
Whenever I talk with people who have never watched anime, they all seem to think it's all about fanservice, shonen stuff or cuteness, but thankfully I think that the industry being as large as it is today means that, while we might get our fair share of moe-centric media and/or shonen series, we can also get other stuff that tackles anime in different ways that fit my tastes more.
the cute, clumsy girl just kept that appearance because it let her get away with whatever she wanted, and as a result she grew up to be a ridiculously self-centered brat with no respect for others
Then, there are characters like Mikuru from the Haruhi series that are always clumsy and get bossed around (which often ends up with them getting forced into embarassing situations), which do make me cringe a bit. While I might feel bad for the characters up to a certain point, that no longer applies when the script goes out of its way to make them the butt of all jokes.
Honestly I liked K-On!, but looking back it does feel like the show constantly tried to trigger "Oh, how cute!" reactions ("Yui's so absentminded!" / "Mio's so awkward!" / "Mugi is so nice / is oddly fascinated by mundane things!"), with Azusa being some sort of Mio #2 on steroids for me. It's really like every single character trait was being played up for cuteness (other than Ritsu's, but that might just have been me), which feels a bit vexing now. Still, I felt like it was a good series for me due to being character-driven (even though the characters barely changed), and the light-heartedness was a welcome change from having gone through Higurashi recently.
I feel it's no different than shows playing up their edginess or fanservice elements just for the sake of it (they're all cringe-inducing). I don't ask for every piece of characterization to be tackled in an interesting way througout a show's plot, but I kind of shrug every time something gratuitious happens out of place.
Whenever I talk with people who have never watched anime, they all seem to think it's all about fanservice, shonen stuff or cuteness, but thankfully I think that the industry being as large as it is today means that, while we might get our fair share of moe-centric media and/or shonen series, we can also get other stuff that tackles anime in different ways that fit my tastes more.
Or, you know, you could be projecting your own insecurities onto other people.
Just a thought.
(also, all "moe fans" don't like all "moe anime", even if we assume either of those terms has a real definable meaning. Acting like they do is basically one of the reasons these discussions go nowhere. People act like K-On and Denki-gai are the same goddamn type of show, and that literally could not be further from the truth)
You're being awfully mean about this. A lot of people (a majority of them in fact) think moe is in some way creepy or at least weird. I dislike moe as well, and it has nothing to do with my insecurities.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
One of the most annoying anime tropes...not limited to moe, actually I this pops up more in Shonen?...is the "unknowingly sexy or tough female character".
I'm sure people know what I mean. She's either really sexy, and gets into situations where her sexuality is on display, or really strong, often hurting others on accident and showcasing her strength, but she's completely oblivious to this and it's just for the enjoyment of the viewer, it's not even an aspect of the character's personality, it's just a mindless sight gag.
I suppose based on the posts in this thread I am the antichrist because I spend thousands on cute anime and figures. Its a long standing hobby and I enjoy it. Instead of getting drunk or smoking or drugs I go home from work and put a cute anime show on. It eases stress and it puts me in the greatest mood. For me that helps me deal with life in general. Not that its necessary, just really fun. For me its also completely harmless. I try to keep my anime twitter work safe.
Not everything is about sex. Hell I dont give a damn about sex. I dont see the big deal and it might as well disappear for all I care. Life for me is loving other people and enjoying cute things in life, anime or otherwise.
if that really does make me the #1 enemy, then so be it I guess.
Extollere is a very talented artist. He draws his avatars.
Not everything is about sex. Hell I dont give a damn about sex. I dont see the big deal and it might as well disappear for all I care. Life for me is loving other people and enjoying cute things in life, anime or otherwise.
if that really does make me the #1 enemy, then so be it I guess.
Extollere, everyone.
Extollere is a very talented artist. He draws his avatars.
I don't like it either. That in itself would be easy enough to deal with for me, but this shit is spreading. Vita threads are full of it. SEGA's all about it now which makes me feel embarased to say I was ever a SEGA fan. It's all treated like its a normal thing... I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
MHWilliams
Member
Log Horizon - Akatsuki
Maris Vermillion from Fairy Tail is 118.
It was the point of Recorder and Randsell. (The tiny one is the high-school student.)
Arata The Legend's Princess Kikuri.
Medaka Box
That's from the past... two years? Off the top of my head. Most shows just make female leads early teenagers. Chaika, Trinity Seven, Supernatural Battles, Fruit of Grisalia, etc, etc, etc.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I find it weird since you would think the fact that the older shounens like dragonball and one piece have female character designs that match their age would catch on
MHWilliams
Member
They usually do. They tend to throw the trope in as a side character. Like filling a quota.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Now see, why does it have to be so either or like this? It seems you gotta talk it up as this great alternative to drugs, drinking, and having sex, but I just don't see the need to do that. I respect you for admitting that it's a hobby of yours, and it makes you happy, but you seem sort of, I dunno, really defensive about it. Maybe it's my fault for making this come across as hostile, but usually when people gotta defend their hobby by immediately pulling the "I don't do drugs or drink!", like that's the worse thing you can do, something's up.
And no one's criticizing Extollere for his drawing skills, it's because that avatar in combination with what he was saying (the Kawashima girl is a petite figured adult when she's obviously drawn to look young but creepily sexualized) paints him in a bad light, and a person that isn't able to be objective about this topic.
Even though Bulma was honestly sexualized, especially early on like with that bunny suit I recall her wearing a lot, I think she has a really nice, realistic design---like she has muscle definition. Android 18 is a solid design, but really DBZ's problem is the female characters are totally sidelined most of the time.
I'm mixed on One Piece, though. It avoids the "moe" style more or less, but I don't like how Nami's and Robin's designs have sort of gone in recent years, especially in the show (like Movie 6 I recall where they were extremely 'bouncy' to the point it was distraction), they seem to have really gotten sexualized and skimpy, and I don't really like it.
I mean, this:
Doesn't strike me as moe, but seems a bit edging into being tasteless.
Still, I feel like Mikuru or Steph from No Game No Life (ah, that series...) play it up in all the wrong ways. A meek, docile, extremely awkward girl that gets thrown into shameful situations that play up her awkwardness feels off-putting, and then they add fanservice to the equation and it becomes downright vexing for me.
I think it's kind of like Evangelion characters deconstructing the tropes that gave birth to their identifying character traits, only for later shows to try to clone the characters while taking them at face value. Making a short list of traits that completely warp a character or show around them feels extremely weak, even for a light-hearted comedy series or something along those lines; it feels like mistaking the inner character traits and how they interact with each other for the end result (be it cuteness, sexiness, badass-ness or whatever), and will often invariably result in one-dimensional characters and/or situations.
Also Shiro, No Game No Life (11 Years old)
NSFW?
http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r728/Fivekill/42947575-1024x576_zpsd63f7f24.jpg
Dat Panty Shot.
Edit: Sorry OP, forgot the rules.
NGNL iss odd... I really like the setting and the color palette used in the anime, but the plot about the two unbeatable brothers in a world where they only happen to meet women who join the lone male lead's harem while filling the episodes with fanservice (including bath scenes) or cheap (albeit funny) shout-outs to other anime and/or games is very vexing for me. It feels like it's little more than an over-the-top male power fantasy about a guy who never leaves his own room and hates the "real world", which makes me sad since the art and setting are both great in my opinion.
Shit, all the pics in this thread already make me wanna run for the hills.
Biscuit Krueger, 57 years old, from HunterXHunter 2011.
Most of the witches these days.
There are several reasons. One is that we get less of this:
and too much of this:
MHWilliams
Member
I mean despite that, there's still a lot of great stuff. I certainly have my own personal tolerance levels when it comes to character design and fanservice, while others may go farther.
I just think sometimes anime and manga undercuts itself aiming for one audience.
Because every anime in the 90s was like Lain, right. Because there were no cute and blushing anime girls in the 90s, right?
Anime I could see if you're only talking about the shows that get enough attention to be talked about on places like GAF to begin with, but manga in no way aims for "just one audience". There's a huge amount of variety.
If Too Much Of This is what helps the lights stay on and put food on the table, and the money from those properties allows the occasional Less of This to be created at all in a risky market, I'm all for it!
Can I use that sentence in my bachelor thesis
sure
MHWilliams
Member
This is true, but I'm talking about needless fanservice. Prison School is one thing, but in Shokugeki no Sohma, it's rather odd. That's a manga I could show to more people without the fanservice.
If Too Much Of This is what helps the lights stay on and put food on the table, and the money from those properties allows the occasional Less of This to be created at all in a risky market, I'm all for it!
Point taken, though like Marvel and DC you wonder how far you can drag that out before the audience drops off. There's also something to be said for demos that are around, but are being ignored. Like film producers ignored young women until Twilight and Hunger Games showed there was a market there, it just wasn't being served.
Please compare nowadays and the 90's again. Have you seen characters like the second one that often in the 90's?
Also, I wasn't talking about the anime but the character, obviously.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Isn't said defensive reaction prominent in other "geek hobbies" as well? I don't believe this is anime-exclusive. Look at people challenging/questioning the MLP fandom for instance. Or perhaps a better, and not as extreme, example would be people challenging/questioning roleplaying communities be it via tabletop, video games, chatrooms, etc.
Point being, niches that are not yet at the point of being accepted as commonplace in modern society tend to be defensive if you poke at them repeatedly. As for moe culture in particular (going to simplify here as the term itself is very broad), yeah a good number of people tend to not look favorably upon it and it most likely does have a impact on Japanese society (whether its the main cause is up for debate), but people from the outside tend to not recognize that the extreme examples being projected are not representative of the niche as a whole.
Look at gaming culture for instance, to the average casual gamer (or non-gamer), video games are just a mass of FPS's with braindead repetitive gameplay. Of course this is not true (I hope you know its not true, considering you're on NeoGAF) and gamers tend to get annoyed when this projection is applied on them.
TL;DR the defensive reaction you're addressing is not exclusive to anime or moe culture.
Wow...that was brutal.
Im not being defensive about it, just stating the mindset of someone who collects it.
Not everything is a defense force. Im not even defending the whole otaku thing because yeah it can be pretty disturbing. Just saying dont put every single collector or moe enthusiast under the same umbrella, just as you wouldnt accept racism or sexism.
I just get tired of seeing it I suppose and a lot of people are afraid to speak up about why collecting moe things can be a fun hobby and a non harmful one.
If you would like anything about moe culture explained I can assist with that.
A lot of times cute stuff is just pleasant to look at. Now I do get tired of seeing harem shows and such with the same formula and same character types over and over. The whole big brother thing is quite questionable IMO but its also quite possible some people never had a little sister and wish they could have experienced that. I mean, i had a sister but she only lived a day after childbirth. Having a little sister would have been an enjoyable life experience like having a younger brother has been.
there are a myriad of reasons why moe is so important to people but I also think a lot of otaku are just lonely too. There are just too many variables as to why the moe thing has caught on.
One thing is correct. As long as people like me are spending thousands on it, guess where the market will cater? The studios go where the money is. Thats how they stay in business.
Its also not exclusively moe that anime collectors like. I was just sitting here watching Cowboy Bebop blurays for example. I have Baccano, Trigun, monster. I just collect a little of everything. But cute stuff is where my heart is at. Probably always will be the case.
Anime has changed. It's not about ideas, stories, or self-expression. It's an endless series of pre-existing products, repackaged and bought by consumers and fans... anime has changed. Uncritical consumers buy uncritical products, celebrate their own uncriticality. Self-perpetuating fandom enhances and regulates their consumption.
I can't think of a good way to end this extended parody goddamnit
Biscuit Krueger, 57 years old, from HunterXHunter 2011.
Most of the witches these days.
There are several reasons. One is that we get less of this:
and too much of this:
Also I dont know how Lain is a good argumemt here. She is adorable.
as for 90s characters being moe...
Shampoo, Lum, Belldandy, Deedlit, Ryuqir, Merle, Aisha clan clan, Chacha, Saint Tail, Sae Sawanogu chi, this list can go on and on.
moe has become more visible but it was always there. I liked the cutesy character designs from the very beginning when I started anime, and that was like 18 years ago.
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