SteveWinwood
Member
i want that shirt
I've grown confused and frustrated with the "moe culture", and I need to vent.
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i want that shirt
OT, but I *hated* Aisha clan clan. She singlehandedly made Outlaw Star a far worse show (to me) than it would have been. Hilda and Suzuka, however, were freaking badass, and to this day remain two of my favorite characters, female or no.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
What's going to be considered a classic moe series? You have anime classics that last a long time and then you have these shows that appear for a while and go away. I understand the concerns for this type of content, but I wonder what will be around in say 20 years? A lot of these shows aren't really talked about unless it's "Attack on Titan". Even that show has a "seen it once, remember it for good, then never watch it again" feel to it. I can see why younger people are enjoying it and why it's becoming very popular now. It's a good show with a semi-mature cast of characters. They have the attitudes to appeal to everyone. I don't know too many people that walk into a store and buy some of the moe films. The last time I heard something in that department was the "Kite" film hollywood made. I hear these names of anime and none of it makes any sense. I know the "classics" and what was popular 10 years ago (Naruto and Bleach), but none of it feels like it will come back.
The moe feels like it's becoming singled out. It's not reaching mainstream enough for an actual audience. Maybe because it has a selected audience. That has always been a bad thing to me because I thought someone would "-"call them out"-" about it. Not everyone stays a teenager or a young adult. How many older adults are into this moe culture versus the older crowd who still enjoys Cowboy Bebop, DBZ, and Akira for example. I'd love to see Anime do more than be cute. There are certainly older films and TV shows that can appeal to everyone, but the moe genre feels questionable at times. I wonder if fans of anime will ever get sick of it. If they really want to be associated with that type of genre at all.
80s and 90s casts were more about making a point. The way the characters looked made them feel more serious. I wish more anime had that. I can't stand how thrown together a lot of these newer shows look. If we had an Okaku culture we'd be able to place it, but sadly we have our own American culture or other culture instead. We have to somehow place our hobby into our lives. I know we all don't want to look like David either. We want to be our own person and be respected for it. We should ask the producers of Anime to make that possible again. I feel like the older generation of anime was better off.
Sooner or later fans will get sick of everything being centered around moes. It happened to the anime fans of the 80s and 90s. I grew up with DBZ, Ghost in the Shell, and Akira and none of this stuff looks good to me. I get why it's considered cute and I respect people who enjoy that. That's until they start moeing around with the subject. The stuff anime fans go back to watch today is the stuff we grew up with, so it's hard accepting recommendations for anime that has this type of appeal to it.
The moe feels like it's becoming singled out. It's not reaching mainstream enough for an actual audience. Maybe because it has a selected audience. That has always been a bad thing to me because I thought someone would "-"call them out"-" about it. Not everyone stays a teenager or a young adult. How many older adults are into this moe culture versus the older crowd who still enjoys Cowboy Bebop, DBZ, and Akira for example. I'd love to see Anime do more than be cute. There are certainly older films and TV shows that can appeal to everyone, but the moe genre feels questionable at times. I wonder if fans of anime will ever get sick of it. If they really want to be associated with that type of genre at all.
80s and 90s casts were more about making a point. The way the characters looked made them feel more serious. I wish more anime had that. I can't stand how thrown together a lot of these newer shows look. If we had an Okaku culture we'd be able to place it, but sadly we have our own American culture or other culture instead. We have to somehow place our hobby into our lives. I know we all don't want to look like David either. We want to be our own person and be respected for it. We should ask the producers of Anime to make that possible again. I feel like the older generation of anime was better off.
Sooner or later fans will get sick of everything being centered around moes. It happened to the anime fans of the 80s and 90s. I grew up with DBZ, Ghost in the Shell, and Akira and none of this stuff looks good to me. I get why it's considered cute and I respect people who enjoy that. That's until they start moeing around with the subject. The stuff anime fans go back to watch today is the stuff we grew up with, so it's hard accepting recommendations for anime that has this type of appeal to it.
I honestly think K-On season 2 + the movie could be considered a classic. I know a lot of blame/accusations of escapism is heaped on moe-style stuff, but I feel that it really captures this idealised idea of nostalgia and leaving high school and this fear of stepping into this big, strange new world in the same way that, say, Persona 4 captures an idealised high school life (uh... well... okay that's not a perfect metaphor, but nonetheless).
See, heres the thing. Fans of moe are also fans of non-moe shows. Its almost as if moe fans appreciate anime in general.
However when is the last time even a Radical Edward or Kino or Rally Vincent figure was available? The product isnt there to buy else Id have it. Its really not as easy to market as moe shows are. But even then there is still a lot of anime like Tatami Galaxy, Dennou coil, Space Dandy, Tsuritama, From the new World, that still has stories to tell and actual unique characters. Anime is far from dead even in the sense that some of yall thought of it. Now there are more and more independent animation projects and I highly suggest checking those out as well.
and because I absolutely must spread the word at every opportunity WATCH MILLENNIUM ACTRESS BY SATOSHI KON.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
You see I am open for those types of discussions and those types of recommendations. Anime is unlike other mediums. You could be scared away walking into an anime store. You wouldn't realize that there are stories to be told and characters with interesting backgrounds. I watch anime on occasions, but it's very hand picked. I don't watch the latest show being aired because it's new or something. Interpretation and clarity makes things a tad difficult. You know what you're watching at times and you want to get to the point before you spend all your time with one show. I had a hard time believing they made better plots than what's been known as a "timeless classic". You can't show something off you can't explain yourself either. "Oh well this show is about incest and this one is about taking advantage of your sister". I can't very well say to myself, "those shows are great, maybe I'll watch more". If it does have a good plot and the characters have a unique value to them then yes it's worth checking out. I have this mentality where buying a box set or watching a show with a suggestive adolescent is a big "NO-NO".
AnathemicOne
Banned
See its things like this that make me see the OP (however genuinely written it was) needlessly redundant.
Not to undermine your point, but I would say games in the western world are kind of like that - the predominant image is of dudes with guns or swords shoot/stabbing peeps, even if thousands of other permutations exist (and are advertised)
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Yeah. Violence has existed long enough to be respected. We're still cowboys fighting in the west, soldiers defending our freedom, and heroes fighting for the galaxy. We watch movies with cops and super heroes who fight and crack jokes all the time. It exists because that's how we live our lives. We can relate news, culture, and the media to it. Sex is the same way. They're both acceptable until we break it down and point a finger at it.
We all like a form of sex and violence. It's just made up differently. It's either the small push and shove, the slap on the face, the day dream, or it's the actual act. We all get mad and we all become sexual (at some point in time).
I watched a video where it says where pedo will always be around because of the different age consensus around the world. We can't agree that one age is the best, so it will continue forever. We all enjoy sex differently. It's just how we express that (and violence) is regulated by actual laws and governing creators. We cannot get rid of sex or violence. We just revolve around it; we make it look different every time. It's all part of our culture. We don't like it because it's what's considered "wrong with society". Are we fighting a losing battle or are we just "not getting over it"?
Can we all get over moe? Yes. Will it go away? Probably not (unless the companies go bankrupt and fans stop creating fan art).
Can we all get over violence? It's the same thing. The guys with guns look different because it's an entertaining formula, just like sex is. We can't express ourselves unless we draw from something totally different. It's going to exist because it's real.
I watched a show called Koi Kaze a couple of years ago with no idea what it was about before I watched it. I just knew it would be a romance anime, but it turned out to be an incest relationship. That being said, if anybody wants to watch an anime about incest, and wants a mature and sensitive take on it Koi Kaze is the way to go.
I also watched Oreimo though, and I thought it was cool til the end when it got all fucked up.
I watch anime for more than 20 years now, there was never much of the former and a lot of the latter. You only think it's the other way around because you're comparing years worth of material to a single season.There are several reasons. One is that we get less of this:
and too much of this:
Jex
Member
If I'm going to be honest, I tend to steer clear of these threads because they rapidly devolve into people indiscriminately (and inaccurately) slagging off a variety of modern shows (or just anime in general) and saying that anime used to be cool in the 80's/90's. Or people vaguely talk about "art styles". There tends to be a number of comments from people who aren't particularly familiar with the medium and only really know about a handful of shows but still feel like the understand the entire anime industry. That's not very interesting to wade through, especially when counter-arguments tend to get dismissed out of hand and those with the most information or experience with the subject get ignored. Circular logic and one-sided conversations are often the norm. As such, I hesitated to even post in here but I feel like at least offering a brief explanation for the OP because it's Christmas after all.
I'm glad to see that OP has at least put some effort into coming up with this thread before creating it. That's better than most other threads we've had on this subject so I wanted to at least highlight that accomplishment.
Still, reading this thread makes me feel like I've fallen through a crack in time back to 2010 when the great fear sweeping the net was that 'moe' would kill anime, or something to that effect. It's been awhile since I've read or heard any discussion on the subject because that, by and large, it seemed like that whole argument 'went away' when it turned out to be fundamentally wrong. I mean, we've discussed this in 2010, twice, 2012, and even 2013 and I feel that pretty much everything that needs to be said on this subject has probably been said. The biggest problem with all these discussions seems to be that no-one can come to an agreed definition of "moe", which leads to everyone
talking at cross purposes until the thread gets locked.
So, accepting that we'll never agree on what 'moe' is I'll briefly respond to the OP's concerns. Now, the OP doesn't really lay out exactly what his/her concerns are specifically so I'm just going to extrapolate what I think the main queries are. Please let me know if I am characterising your queries:
Q: There seems to be an abundance of media focusing on 'cute' girls, this seems concerning.
A: There certainly is, although how much of a concern it should be depends on the material in question. It's pretty important to to not conflate Japan's enjoyment of cute things with sexualised otaku material e.g. videogames, anime etc. This is where the slipperiness of the term 'moe' becomes problematic, because you could apply that label to complete innocent works such as K-On! which feature 'cute girls' or works that aren't innocent at all e.g. Prisma Illya. Saying both shows are "moe" tells you practically nothing about the works, their intended audiences or their content.
As such, you shouldn't be concerned about "the media" in general so much as specific types of representation.
Q: Narrowing down the above question, what's the deal with all the properties that apparently sexualise depictions of young girls? Why do they exist in such a high volume?
A: Media and related merchandise tends to be extremely expensive in Japan so it's only the most hardcore fans who every buy it. There's a fairly reliable niche of consumers who want to buy that kind of content even at those high prices. A number of companies serve this market because it's a reliable way to make money. It's that simple.
Q: What's the intent of the people creating this kind of media, what are they looking to convey with their work?
A: The anime industry is a business. Shows exist to fill advertising slots, sell more copies of the material they are based off (e.g. manga, novels etc) or to sell merchandise. They're products and most of the time they are adaptations so questions of "what is the story looking to accomplish" don't even factor in because those creative decisions were made with the original content.
Now, there are obviously plenty of shows that have strong creative vision behind them but those generally are not the creepy shows that sexualise young girls.
Q: What about the role of women in the industry?
A: Women play a significant role in animation industry, at all levels. This is probably the time with the most women working in the field.
Q: What about works apparently aimed at women that are really for men?
A: Most works, as I mentioned above, are adaptations. It's generally clear from the magazine that the original works are published in what the intended audience e.g. if you're reading Berserk in Young Animal you know that magazine is targeted at older men. If you're reading Rose of Versailles in Margaret you know that's a magazine for teenage girls. Even beyond such indicators a works art style will often make it clear who it's aimed at.
Now, there used to be a time when stories aimed at girls weren't even primarily written by women but by men. However, that all changed in the 70's and now, by and large, women are writing those stories.
Q: There doesn't seem to be much critical push back against this kind of content?
A: I've been reading people complain about this for years so I don't really know where you are coming from on this one. There's enough people who enjoy this kind of content to make it a sustainable business model, which is why it persists. It would only go away if the audience disappeared. Discussions on the subject abound but it will have zero impact on the industry at large.
[Implicit Conclusion]: The treatment of women in Japanese media is pretty bad. Having little girls be sexualised in this fashion certainly doesn't help. This kind of content certainly doesn't help women's role in Japanese society. Therefore the people making this content should reconsider what they're doing because it's bad because it has a detrimental impact on women.
Response: Well, you're not wrong to say that but, as I said above, it's essentially just a business model. It will continue until it is no longer profitable.
Women in Japan face a number of struggles and sexism is a still extremely prevalent in that country. This is the unfortunate reality of the situation.
Now, if you have any other queries, please let me know.
I'm glad to see that OP has at least put some effort into coming up with this thread before creating it. That's better than most other threads we've had on this subject so I wanted to at least highlight that accomplishment.
Still, reading this thread makes me feel like I've fallen through a crack in time back to 2010 when the great fear sweeping the net was that 'moe' would kill anime, or something to that effect. It's been awhile since I've read or heard any discussion on the subject because that, by and large, it seemed like that whole argument 'went away' when it turned out to be fundamentally wrong. I mean, we've discussed this in 2010, twice, 2012, and even 2013 and I feel that pretty much everything that needs to be said on this subject has probably been said. The biggest problem with all these discussions seems to be that no-one can come to an agreed definition of "moe", which leads to everyone
talking at cross purposes until the thread gets locked.
So, accepting that we'll never agree on what 'moe' is I'll briefly respond to the OP's concerns. Now, the OP doesn't really lay out exactly what his/her concerns are specifically so I'm just going to extrapolate what I think the main queries are. Please let me know if I am characterising your queries:
Q: There seems to be an abundance of media focusing on 'cute' girls, this seems concerning.
A: There certainly is, although how much of a concern it should be depends on the material in question. It's pretty important to to not conflate Japan's enjoyment of cute things with sexualised otaku material e.g. videogames, anime etc. This is where the slipperiness of the term 'moe' becomes problematic, because you could apply that label to complete innocent works such as K-On! which feature 'cute girls' or works that aren't innocent at all e.g. Prisma Illya. Saying both shows are "moe" tells you practically nothing about the works, their intended audiences or their content.
As such, you shouldn't be concerned about "the media" in general so much as specific types of representation.
Q: Narrowing down the above question, what's the deal with all the properties that apparently sexualise depictions of young girls? Why do they exist in such a high volume?
A: Media and related merchandise tends to be extremely expensive in Japan so it's only the most hardcore fans who every buy it. There's a fairly reliable niche of consumers who want to buy that kind of content even at those high prices. A number of companies serve this market because it's a reliable way to make money. It's that simple.
Q: What's the intent of the people creating this kind of media, what are they looking to convey with their work?
A: The anime industry is a business. Shows exist to fill advertising slots, sell more copies of the material they are based off (e.g. manga, novels etc) or to sell merchandise. They're products and most of the time they are adaptations so questions of "what is the story looking to accomplish" don't even factor in because those creative decisions were made with the original content.
Now, there are obviously plenty of shows that have strong creative vision behind them but those generally are not the creepy shows that sexualise young girls.
Q: What about the role of women in the industry?
A: Women play a significant role in animation industry, at all levels. This is probably the time with the most women working in the field.
Q: What about works apparently aimed at women that are really for men?
A: Most works, as I mentioned above, are adaptations. It's generally clear from the magazine that the original works are published in what the intended audience e.g. if you're reading Berserk in Young Animal you know that magazine is targeted at older men. If you're reading Rose of Versailles in Margaret you know that's a magazine for teenage girls. Even beyond such indicators a works art style will often make it clear who it's aimed at.
Now, there used to be a time when stories aimed at girls weren't even primarily written by women but by men. However, that all changed in the 70's and now, by and large, women are writing those stories.
Q: There doesn't seem to be much critical push back against this kind of content?
A: I've been reading people complain about this for years so I don't really know where you are coming from on this one. There's enough people who enjoy this kind of content to make it a sustainable business model, which is why it persists. It would only go away if the audience disappeared. Discussions on the subject abound but it will have zero impact on the industry at large.
[Implicit Conclusion]: The treatment of women in Japanese media is pretty bad. Having little girls be sexualised in this fashion certainly doesn't help. This kind of content certainly doesn't help women's role in Japanese society. Therefore the people making this content should reconsider what they're doing because it's bad because it has a detrimental impact on women.
Response: Well, you're not wrong to say that but, as I said above, it's essentially just a business model. It will continue until it is no longer profitable.
Women in Japan face a number of struggles and sexism is a still extremely prevalent in that country. This is the unfortunate reality of the situation.
Now, if you have any other queries, please let me know.
I know this dude at work who loves moe anime/manga to the point he draws them at lunch and stuff. It's kinda weird, but we've been friends forever plus he could snap me and 90% of the population in half and suck the marrow from my/their spine if he wanted to, so no one ever really gives him shit for it, much less me. Dude's happily married with 2 kids as well. Not everyone who watches this stuff is a total creeper, dudes =\
...
Although I would be lying if I said I didn't give him shit all the time about drawing me some FotNS stuff vs "that silly little girl shit"
...
Although I would be lying if I said I didn't give him shit all the time about drawing me some FotNS stuff vs "that silly little girl shit"
That's a kind of a really shitty argument. How about instead of quoting me that pointless total pop. stat you give me something actually relevant, like how much it sells in comparison to other anime, and how consistently.
I mean I'm not attacking your premise, it's just a pet peeve of mine when I see people use that argument. It's akin to people saying "well, CoD only sells 12 million a year over a potential market of like 1 billion people in the US/Europe combined!" It's just so over generalized to the point being completely pointless in any context.
I do not know, folks.
I mean I was complaining for a few years about the likes of K-ON when comparing them to "good ol' " anime like Wolf's Rain, FMA, all that jazz (old, huh). Then I actually watched that filthy K-On, and it was not bad at all, nothing pervert about it. I even felt bad about liking it.
But back to the point. This thread reads to me like we were middle-aged moms disproving of our son's gaming habits. Seriously. In fact, I would more readily disprove of a 14-16 year old mindlessly being a psycopath online while playing COD as opposed to watching such shows. There is a line between "I can accept its existence" and "I would not watch it even if they paid me to watch it", and I am not bothered by others crossing my line. We all have different lines.
I mean I was complaining for a few years about the likes of K-ON when comparing them to "good ol' " anime like Wolf's Rain, FMA, all that jazz (old, huh). Then I actually watched that filthy K-On, and it was not bad at all, nothing pervert about it. I even felt bad about liking it.
But back to the point. This thread reads to me like we were middle-aged moms disproving of our son's gaming habits. Seriously. In fact, I would more readily disprove of a 14-16 year old mindlessly being a psycopath online while playing COD as opposed to watching such shows. There is a line between "I can accept its existence" and "I would not watch it even if they paid me to watch it", and I am not bothered by others crossing my line. We all have different lines.
MaliciousH
Neo Member
Eh, that isn't where all the money comes from. It's the associated merchandise that comes along with the show. The show itself is just merely the hook.
If I have to name a anime that does "moe" right, I have to name Girls und Panzer (very good example of the above by the way). Huge props to the director and whoever else for separating out the more pervy side of moe to the OVAs. The actual show itself is pretty clean.
Cute girls doing cute things is fine to me. Just don't get (too) pervy.
Honey Bunny
Member
Don't know who she is but damn I've seen some great cosplay of her.
There arent hugely reliable numbers but moe anime seems to sell on par with other anime. This going by classifying moe as something easily discernible. Anime popularity is really hit or miss with otaku.
Also ease up on the snark please.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
you need a waifu
She isn't moe. She is drawn the normal way.
Deedlit
Looks totally the same. Yeah, right...
She isn't moe. She is drawn the normal way.
Deedlit
Looks totally the same. Yeah, right...
Are you basing moe on a character design look or whether or not the character generally acts cute? Deedlit is moe as fuck.
Single season? Where did I write that? It was the first picture that popped up on google search.
It's looks + behavior.
Sakura is the crowning queen moenuke of the kingdom of Cute.
Didn't write that either. Just look at my post right above your one.
Moral Panic
Member
I dislike "moe" designs or "art-style" as being used as a qualifier, because it often takes unrelated things: namely the sexualisation of characters with neotenic features and conflates them together with shows which merely have a "cutesy" artstyle or even feature young girls at all. They are not even in the same realm. K-ON! is "moe" but it is completely devoid of a perverted sense of voyeurism or pandering and should not be mentioned in the same breath as filth such as No Game No Life. Madoka Magica too has a "moe" artsyle but it's one of the best anime in the past 5 years.
You did not write, yet posted a screengrab...
Agree completely. There has to be some qualifier to separate "bad moe" from good. Some shows are basically pure and pretty much use cuteness to market directly at me, but even though No Game No Life does have some questionable elements, it still has a fun story and imaginative setting. Frankly there is enough of every kind of anime even today that it should be able to satisfy anyone.
I reacted to your screenshots. You were obviously trying to make a point with that. Moving the goalposts?
Shut your mouth D:< Patlabor is the greatest...plus the movies (arguably the pinnacle of the franchise) exhibit none of the qualities you described and even that picture you posted doesn't represent a majority of the series
and the Patlabor soundtrack is the GOAT.
Considering screenshots can only show the character style, I could only comment on that (show the obvious differences). Unless you expected me to write about the behavior using those pictures as an example which is obviously not possible. If the character design + the behavior make a character moe and the first "requirement" isn't met, then the character is not moe. (I also have never encountered a single person saying that Deedlit is moe in my...well, anime-watching career of about 20 years...nor has/had any anime site tagged this character as moe.)
Welp, but think whatever you want. I dislike moe as it is mostly defined, not like you see it.
These sites help with the general idea of moe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe
http://www.japanator.com/the-four-laws-of-moe-14072.phtml
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I guess it's like a legal perversity that perverse individuals can engage in without facing prosecution?
No wonder society is on a downhill, when today's youths and 30somethings are watching uguu and moe.
No wonder society is on a downhill, when today's youths and 30somethings are watching uguu and moe.
Moral Panic
Member
It isnt always perverse either
pants
Member
Anything and everything can be moe, just depends on the subject's specific likes or what he/she finds to be their 'moe'. It's not specifically useful to try and pin down moe as being problematic, but I'm okay with trying to pin down too young looking adults and women with no personality beyond being cute as problematic. That's where this conversation needs to happen, with concrete patterns, not in the space of something so truly abstract as 'moe'
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Says the person with the moe avatar.
pants
Member
No such thing exists. Like squids may be moe to you, as sisters are to 8bitnate as dolphins are to that other dude. We dont all share the same sense of moe so call out the specific sexualization of young looking girls or whatever. It's going to be much more useful to have an honest conversation.
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