PdotMichael
Banned
Why should I care about your post if you attack me on a personal level?
I've grown confused and frustrated with the "moe culture", and I need to vent.
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Why should I care about your post if you attack me on a personal level?
Aww you poor baby
John Kowalski
Banned
Says the dude with the moe avatar.
Nice to know anime as a whole is pretty huge and currently has shows/film to appeal to everyone so making baseless generalizations like this seems stupid, right?
Right?
Seriously I don't like the hyper cute art direction most popular shows have as much as the next guy but it sounds pretty stupid to say it's ruining anime. Support the good. Support Space Dandy, Ping Pong, The Flowers of Evil, Log Horizon, Akame Ga Kill, Barakamon, etc.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
It certainly feels like it has a much larger presence nowadays, perhaps due to it being a lucrative market, than before.
Still we do get several great anime a year so its okay.
I literally just quoted your tag. Your tag is funny and super appropriate for the topic at hand. Someone else is probably going to quote it one day as well. It's a never ending curse basically.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
this thread is awesome, thank you guys.
Nozomi definitely is more, more of what is up for argument, however.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I hate this stuff. It's gotten to the point where I hesitate to tell people that I'm primarily into Japanese games. I don't want people to think that I'm into Vita-style moe crap. I like games like the Souls games, metal gear and Final Fantasy. Japanese big budget games still bother to create interesting gameplay systems, while most big budget western games have stopped being about good gameplay, and instead are about creating an "epic" "experiences".
teruterubozu
Member
I had no idea the Sony Vita is a moe console. Interesting.
Indeed, such a shame because the medium has shown signs of amazing potential. I mean... FMA? Fate Zero? Escaflowne? The list can go on, and on and on. Yet we still get amazing "my hot cute lil' sister" or "shy hot quiet moe girl" types of creepy anime that I don't understand how anyone can watch. Or these "18" year girls that are flatter than a 9 year old. Its so freaking disappointing.
Moral Panic
Member
I generally agree with your post, especially concerning the popularity of harem romance (a format which doesn't make any sense outside of visual novels where you need more than one romance route), but i'm finding that every year there are more and more shows breaking convention and either subverting or wholly sidestepping the archetypes in question.
Sorry guys but one scene (and it's a flashback iirc) doesn't stop the show being 99% of pure cutesy nonsense. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
And yes, I am being overly harsh towards the industry. Original manga/anime aren't impossible to find but they are rarer than they need to be especially considering the vast amount of material that gets created.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Is this not true of all other media?
No what are you talking about all movies, TV shows and videogames are time-tested classics that everyone loves! Only anime has things that people don't like!
googleplex
Member
Then you're missing out and doing yourself a disservice. Madoka Magica is a complete deconstruction of the "Magical girl" anime. It also happens to be awesome and heartbreaking at the same time.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is normally true to varying extents but I think its particularly true in cases like this where the loop between the production and the fanbase is so tight: the reaction of the fandom is just as important as the actual content being produced, especially when the media in question is often only a small fraction of the merchendise that exists around it. (this isn't exclusive to Japanese media by a long, the mishandling of the themes in Fight Club, for example, lead to a lot of real life misinterpretations of the film)
I mentioned Oreimo not as an example of a "good series" or anything (I haven't watched the whole thing but I've read enough to know where that goes) but as a specific example of how, while it does a lot of stuff people very explicitly find creepy, it also avoids the major thing that I perceive in so much "moe" content. You're right that of course they're fictional characters and none of they would have any agency anyway, but down that rabbit hole lies writing off any discussion of media because none of its real in the first place. What matters is that our conceptualizations of how the characters "really are" is informed by how they're presented to us. And yeah, K-On from what I saw and from what I've read about where it goes, basically never implies any sexual awareness in the characters at all (other then "girls commenting on each others boobs"), which made it very uncomfortable for me when I dipped into discussions when it first came out and saw people completely unironically sharing suggestive images of the cast. And on the note of merchandising a google search of "mio akiyama figure" reveals plenty of swimsuit figures in the first page including this one: http://myanimeshelf.com/upload/dynamic/2011-04/21/125.jpeg
PdotMichael
Banned
And you're full of shit, indeed, an endless circle.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
I think everyone needs to chill out, it's xmas and the holidays. There's a wide range of "Moe" and anime culture that seems to be neglected and the "negative" subjects are more mainstream it appears to nonanime viewers. Point is, don't hate on something that's you don't know much about. There's many variety of animes and don't judge base on what's seem.
AnimeGAF's largest consumer of....rage apparently.
Moral Panic
Member
There is a vast amount of variety in books aimed at a wide variety of audiences. If you try to look for manga/anime which isn't aimed at schoolkids or features otaku bait then you are in real trouble. Especially in the romance genre which is absolutely steeped in nonsense.
But this isn't true?
Messofanego
Banned
It kind of depends on the intent and content, right?
Like I love Azumanga Daioh and Nichijou
The characters aren't sexualised. They're not majorly pandering to fanservice. And are more focused on sharp comedy. These I find are exceptions though, to the rest of moe that I just stay far away from.
Much like the pop music, the target demographic is a very hardcore niche of men who happen to be "whales" in that they're the biggest customers so the industry caters to their desires. There is a lack of universal appeal. The only J-pop band I know that isn't concerned with placating that certain demographic through sexualisation is Perfume (video) as they're more concerned with sometimes a cool android aesthetic. I'm not some heavy consumer of this media though, so they come off as an exception.
Like I love Azumanga Daioh and Nichijou
The characters aren't sexualised. They're not majorly pandering to fanservice. And are more focused on sharp comedy. These I find are exceptions though, to the rest of moe that I just stay far away from.
Much like the pop music, the target demographic is a very hardcore niche of men who happen to be "whales" in that they're the biggest customers so the industry caters to their desires. There is a lack of universal appeal. The only J-pop band I know that isn't concerned with placating that certain demographic through sexualisation is Perfume (video) as they're more concerned with sometimes a cool android aesthetic. I'm not some heavy consumer of this media though, so they come off as an exception.
The K-On girls would be appalled at such language.
I don't think people are saying there's no good anime out there, but instead they dislike the current popular trends and think it has a negative effect on the medium. You could say the same thing about superhero movies holding back cinema, or publishers only focusing on young adult novels, or AAA games pushing out other developers etc. A major trend in anime right now is moe stuff and a lot of people are taken aback by it.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
See my avatar? That's a real anime.
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas!
If you're using Space Dandy to talk about "the best" you're already in trouble. That show was average at best.
John Kowalski
Banned
what can i say, even the chrome spellchecker is against moe
pants
Member
Space Dandy isnt one show, it's like idk, The Outer Limits, it had a billion different directors and a billion different styles.
teruterubozu
Member
Yup, they're mostly self-contained episodes like The Twilight Zone. In fact,
they die
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I don't think I have an issue with female leads like someone suggested, it just seems like it's hard to find female characters in anime that I find written well enough, or enjoyable. Maybe it's because my anime experience is limited to genres where female characters are unfortunately sidelined, I haven't watched a lot of anime recently so most of it is limited to older shonen shows with primarily male casts, but I don't know if being unable to find a lot of female leads I enjoy is my fault, and not the industries. At the very least, as a child I found Sora from Digimon Adventure to be the best character, and one I felt I could connect to more so. I've never watched Sailor Moon, I plan to after marathoning Dragon Ball Z, but there's a series where the designs despite being cute, don't bother me at all, because they seem to be made for girls but are enjoyed by boys due to the shonene elements, rather than simply for being cute girls.
Honestly, it's gotten to the point where I don't really trust the "deconstruction" term anymore, because it seems so overused now that I have a hard time taking someone's word for it. I think a show can play with the formula of a genre---in this case magical girls---yet still be off-putting. Madoka on the designs alone don't appeal to me, and if I recall isn't it rather violent? Mixing little girls with violence bothers me even if it's trying to say a message, I guess.
How do you feel about the spill-over into the real world I seem to be noticing, where real Japanese women I see featured in a lot of the entertainment media seem to be embodying this "style", despite technically being adults? It creeps me out even more so than the cartoon example, perhaps, because it usually comes packaged with a weird, "fake" personality. Now I know a lot of actors put on a personality, but in this case it seems to be overly juvenile and domesticated.
I've seen people claim it's because Japanese women look young naturally, and extend that to be the reason so many of these shows have young looking characters, but it seems to me that while Japanese women may age better due to perhaps a better diet, they still look like adults, not children.
Is this just an aspect of Japan in general---the expected role of women, or is this trend I seem to be noticing another aspect of capturing the 'otaku market', and thus a result of this moe-style?
Honestly, it's gotten to the point where I don't really trust the "deconstruction" term anymore, because it seems so overused now that I have a hard time taking someone's word for it. I think a show can play with the formula of a genre---in this case magical girls---yet still be off-putting. Madoka on the designs alone don't appeal to me, and if I recall isn't it rather violent? Mixing little girls with violence bothers me even if it's trying to say a message, I guess.
Plus I already watched Ryuki lol
How do you feel about the spill-over into the real world I seem to be noticing, where real Japanese women I see featured in a lot of the entertainment media seem to be embodying this "style", despite technically being adults? It creeps me out even more so than the cartoon example, perhaps, because it usually comes packaged with a weird, "fake" personality. Now I know a lot of actors put on a personality, but in this case it seems to be overly juvenile and domesticated.
I've seen people claim it's because Japanese women look young naturally, and extend that to be the reason so many of these shows have young looking characters, but it seems to me that while Japanese women may age better due to perhaps a better diet, they still look like adults, not children.
Is this just an aspect of Japan in general---the expected role of women, or is this trend I seem to be noticing another aspect of capturing the 'otaku market', and thus a result of this moe-style?
That's an argument for not taking "moe" as a representation of all of Japanese society, but it doesn't say a lot about the anime industry itself.
Four of the top five best-selling anime of this millennium make heavy use of this "cute" aesthetic. Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari both heavily sexualize underage characters.
It's the business model that works, and that kind of sucks.
teruterubozu
Member
Interesting link. Man, anime has such a tiny audience in Japan, I had no idea.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Let's take a look at the facts. Here are the 6 best-selling anime of 2013 as well as those of 2014:
Attack on Titan
Monogatari Series 2nd Season
Uta no Prince-sama 2000%
Love Live
Free
Kuroko's Basketball 2nd Season
Love Live 2nd Season
Haikyuu
Free Eternal Summer
Sword Art Online II
Hozuki no Reitetsu
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders
If we look at this list, only Love Live's two seasons fall squarely into the "cute girls" image of "moe anime" people in this thread tend to have. Though they are not "cute girls doing cute things" shows, some people might consider Monogatari and Sword Art Online "moe" as well. (I have grave reservations about the liberal use of that word, but we'll put that aside for now.) Meanwhile, at least 6 shows - Uta no Prince-sama, Free's two seasons, Kuroko, Haikyuu, and Hozuki - have sales primarily driven by a female audience who are interested in the male characters of the series. Attack on Titan and Jojo have that kind of appeal as well. So if we look at the industry sales trends, we can conclude that the dominant trend is not "cute girls", but instead "cute guys". Female otaku are a strong force in Japan's anime industry, a force which is usually ignored in discussions such as these.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
I'm pretty moe
speculawyer
Member
Moe Money, Moe Problems.
OK, but I'm still not sure what would classify this stuff in Kill La Kill as moe.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
:lol
This thread has gotten a lot more tolerable as discussion has evolved from simple drive by posting.
moe does have a lot of problems but it does seem like people have more of a problem with vapid forgettable trope characters and that I can certainly agree with. At this point I can practically look at artwork and determine how a character in a show will act. However, there are so many great shows that just happen to have a cutesy aesthetic that its nearly impossible to get a real pulse on modern anime without being exposed to the style. If the art is what repulses a person it cant really be helped but if deeper characterizations are what you look for, I assure you they still exist.
moe does have a lot of problems but it does seem like people have more of a problem with vapid forgettable trope characters and that I can certainly agree with. At this point I can practically look at artwork and determine how a character in a show will act. However, there are so many great shows that just happen to have a cutesy aesthetic that its nearly impossible to get a real pulse on modern anime without being exposed to the style. If the art is what repulses a person it cant really be helped but if deeper characterizations are what you look for, I assure you they still exist.
Says the poster with a Teddy avatar...hmmph.
I know what you mean, it lost its moejo
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
True words, but I think that did more harm than good. There just wasn't a consistent voice tying everything together.
I might watch the 2nd season sometime but when I heard how they tried explaining some stuff it just sounded incredibly silly (not just the usual silly, but literally the mere idea of them trying to suddenly get serious and explain it, is ridiculous).
Agreed, and not just that; the difference between that gif and a moe anime is, Chip and Dales' main focus was never on romance, or sexual relationships. They just came about from time-to-time because, being sort of analogous to human beings, that would inevitably play a factor, but never was the main factor of that show. With moe, it's ALL about over-sexualizing little kids; that is literally the main point of the worst offenders.
It's nothing new; there's older stuff like Agent Aika, Burn Up W! (and to a lesser extent, Dream Hunter Rem)that did the exact same thing, but at least in their case it was with adult women*. It's still annoying and off-putting in a story that doesn't require it otherwise, but I'm at least comfortable with tolerating its presence since they're adults. I don't feel ashamed to think to myself "well she does have a nice butt" if they set up a shot to flaunt it...I just hope the show's story and execution of that story is good enough to make tolerating the fan service worth it (not the case w/ Aika, tbh).
*
The main character in Dream Hunter Rem isn't an adult I believe, more like late teen. But that'd put them in about the same park as say Korra, and about the same level of fetishization of its female lead i.e almost nil.
I can't say that with any moe stuff; it's not like I go looking for it anyway but just reading the synopsis for any show that gets the "MOE ALERT!" siren going off in my head tends to put me to sleep. They're incredibly cliche.
Even if that is true (I'm gonna assume it is b/c I'm checking into the info on this), still quite a sad fact. Every other anime guy is looking like a Final Fantasy lead these days
I don't want Nathan Drake in every anime either, but the other side of that coin is just as monotonous.
If that's what you willingly believe, then fine. I'll respect your opinion.
Umm...no
Moe is still an issue. Its not just the "style" of a specific show. When most of the female cast looks like 12 year olds and the men look like men - there is an issue.
teruterubozu
Member
The men usually look like girls, to be honest.
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