I suppose if you would list some examples then we might be able to name shows for you that dont have this element.
I've grown confused and frustrated with the "moe culture", and I need to vent.
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I suppose if you would list some examples then we might be able to name shows for you that dont have this element.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
This or anyone who posts in a Senran Kagura thread.
Or that thread with the PS4 game that's only about sexually harassing women.
GAF is weird. Likes to wear this progressive label but then has the absolute most questionable game threads with dozens of pages.
Sorry if I'm just picking up these two phrases you wrote out of the whole post, but they feel like blanket statements that I believe you should think over for a bit. Basically, fanservice and moe are not the same thing. You hear K-On! being called moe all the time since it basically amounts to cutesy girls hanging out, and the show isn't centered in sexualizing the characters at all. Of course some shows might throw moe and fanservice together for quick and easy profits, but that doesn't mean they're one and the same.
The biggest problem with anime series (and the source material that often spawns them) is that many people jump into the "me too" bandwagon and begin creating carbon copies of what's hot right now with little regard for the quality of the content (ie: VR worlds being all the rage right now in anime). Still, this isn't an issue that only the anime industry has, since we far too often end up saying the same things about all kinds of media: dudebro brown shooters, CGI explision-fest movies, Whatevercraft, Flappy Bird clones, etcetera.
That doesn't mean that you can't find good media amidst the flood of faulty doppelgangers, but it's true that the obvious cash-grabs might get more exposure since fitting the "flavor of the month" is basically their only claim to fame, and pushing them as hard as possible is the only way to make some quick cash before the fad changes to something else.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I didn't know K-On was moe.
I watch it with my niece and just assumed it was an anime about a girl band for girls (or young boys) to watch.
I watch it with my niece and just assumed it was an anime about a girl band for girls (or young boys) to watch.
What is moe
Oh, GAF, don't hate it
Don't hate it no more.
That's weird. K-On! is probably the most well known example for moe.
I recall it being a seinen anime, which means it's designed for older guys.
pants
Member
I really wish you guys would stop using the term moe to describe what you dont like. Take the extra 30 seconds and rather type 'cutesy archetypes', 'sexualized kids' etc The term moe really doesnt mean what you guys think it does, It literally means nothing to everyone but something to someone.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Could you enlighten us with the term moe please.
teruterubozu
Member
To be fair, the thread is about "moe culture" - people are exploring the topic, whether understood fully or not.
I get what you mean, but not outright banning the discussion of certain games seems also progressive to me.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
These situations always kinda boil down to that question though. Though I don't think there is anything anti progressive about banning certain types of topics.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
No harm done; I know full well the dangers of generalization. But in the case of moe, I don't feel like sentiments are very far off.
What you're saying has merit; the problem isn't with shows with little girls in and of themselves (I watched a lot of Cardcaptor Sakura when that was on the air here..granted I was a young teen then). It's the ones that run rampant with the questionable exploitation of them in a perverted way, clearly aimed at adult males. And then, to top it off, don't have very good stories or characters when you remove the moe component.
True, fanservice isn't really the same thing, but wouldn't a lot of "true" moe essentially qualify as fanservice? It's still there to sexually please the viewer. Very possible to be put off by both while still understanding their differences.
For example I tried getting into an anime called Freezing (not moe, not based on the very little I've seen) at one point. Yeah, I saw some pictures of the main character, busty and all, but that wasn't an issue especially as I read an overview and thought "this could be a cool sci-fi fighting anime". Besides other respectable fighting shows have some of the same thing going for themselves; Bleach and Tenhou Tenge for example.
Then I see the villain get butt-naked in the first episode as her armor breaks and have to more or less put it in the "nope" pile. I certainly don't mind some nudity, but make sure it's there for a valid reason. I could already see what kind of show it was gonna be and figured if I wanted hentai, I'd of not bothered.
In that show's case I felt the sudden bum-rush of fanservice and nudity was an insult to my genuine expectations for a cool action show with some attractive female characters, but that it wouldn't boil down to exploiting their bodies. Which is exactly what it did in the first 20 minutes. Felt like a slap in the face, and that's with full-bodied adult women.
FWIW I have the same feelings on gratuitous violence; make sure it's there for a thematic/plot/character purpose and use it sparingly.
But using "moe" helps save server space.
Moe and Shipping culture has gotten out of hand. I wont even bother with the Korra discussions anymore cause all the talk is about KorrAsami. The same for Aldnoah Zero. I won't deny it is most talked about/sells the easiest. But I won't deny that I think it's easily the weakest aspect of plot development and world building.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
So have they fucked up Air Bender as well?
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Shipping culture is just a completely different beast and has been awful for a very long time.
ALTA is notorious for having some of the craziest shipper bases on the net.
HolyBaikal
Banned
This thread is really, really upsetting to me... :<
I don't know how to respond to it...
I don't know how to respond to it...
yeah, its pretty shitty. Best case is just to avoid them.
teruterubozu
Member
Moe + Shipping? What's that? Like Arpeggio of Blue Steel?
Moral Panic
Member
IIRC it features a main character who has a love interest dropped into her lap without having to do anything or change herself.
Solid Samus
Banned
i just don't understand it.
i don't hate it, it just all seems so fucking weird and nonsensical to me. but whatever. if you're into the whimsy and the... esoteric humor and you're not busy trying to convince me against logic and reason that there's nothing deeper to occasional imagery of scantily clad twelve year old cartoons, then enjoy yourselves.
i don't hate it, it just all seems so fucking weird and nonsensical to me. but whatever. if you're into the whimsy and the... esoteric humor and you're not busy trying to convince me against logic and reason that there's nothing deeper to occasional imagery of scantily clad twelve year old cartoons, then enjoy yourselves.
There's KorraAsami shipping in Airbender?
Well thank you, you just got me back in the show.
SigmasonicX
Member
Shipping is a completely separate issue and you shouldn't be trying to conflate the two. For one thing, shipping is hardly recent (it even affected 19th century literature like Little Women) and is hardly limited to anime or animation.
pants
Member
Oh man, if we're going to get into shipping in here then we should light a fire behind us to hide the evidence lol
moe doesnt mean anything on its own
It's cool when you use it, you've pretty much stated what you see as 'moe' and we're chatting about it. It's not useful when someone types out a paragraph about how much they dislike moe without saying what that means to them however. It's so much simpler just addressing the problematic content directly than using a blanket word that literally has no meaning until a subjective entity gives it such.
Moral Panic
Member
You clearly don't understand the difference lol. "True moe"? Now you're just making shit up.
YoYo Switch
Banned
Aren't all the girls in k on 18? That's more than I can say for most anime
Also, I think op is a little right, but also being a little presumptuous. I'm sure there's a lot of women who find the genre cute.
I also think it's just the prevailing style in anime atm. From the clips in this thread, all the male characters are drawn that way.
I doubt the entire island nation of Japan are lowly pedophiles (even tho the legal age over there is, like what, 15?) I think this is just a mix of western perspective and insecurities projecting onto a genre of anime.
The OP is a little right tho. This stuff is everywhere
Also, I think op is a little right, but also being a little presumptuous. I'm sure there's a lot of women who find the genre cute.
I also think it's just the prevailing style in anime atm. From the clips in this thread, all the male characters are drawn that way.
I doubt the entire island nation of Japan are lowly pedophiles (even tho the legal age over there is, like what, 15?) I think this is just a mix of western perspective and insecurities projecting onto a genre of anime.
The OP is a little right tho. This stuff is everywhere
SenorArdilla
Member
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
teruterubozu
Member
Well it literally means budding or sprouting. It can be taken in numerous ways - "budding" girl or "sprouting" feelings.
Oh, it's not just shipping for those two.There's KorraAsami shipping in Airbender?
Well thank you, you just got me back in the show.
The ending pretty much establishes them as a canon couple.
Looks like I have to go back and start watching Korra :3c
pants
Member
Literally sure, but thats not how we're using the word here =P
teruterubozu
Member
I thought nobody was using it right, according to you.
She actually does change, gets tested and overcomes some adversity.
its false, so it doesn't matter
pants
Member
What are you even arguing now?
teruterubozu
Member
I'm not. Just an observation.
Hooooly shit! And just when I thought my Christmas couldn't get any better.
You're right, completely separate. I never mentioned or meant to imply it was limited to Animation but, It's the scale it happens at, and all that ends up being talked about when I read those discussions. Less so on other formats I've found. I suppose I just clumped up the two unconsciously as trends I've gotten more frustrated and confused with.
This is what I mean. The show is borderline garbage with it's writing, but this one aspect, just like the Moe appeal is enough to draw in crowds to the detriment of paying attention to the real meat of the show.
Moral Panic
Member
I think it's a very weak story style that exists purely to make the viewer feel good about themselves. Oh don't worry about improving yourself or improving your social skills or clearing up misunderstandings with your classmates, you can just be yourself and the guy/girl of your dreams will just fall into your lap because you are a special snowflake and so unique. I'm not a fan at all. All the hard work of trying to get close to someone and get them to notice you romantically gets taken out and replaced with what I can only describe as fantasy.
It kind of depends on the intent and content, right?
Like I love Azumanga Daioh and Nichijou
The characters aren't sexualised. They're not majorly pandering to fanservice. And are more focused on sharp comedy. These I find are exceptions though, to the rest of moe that I just stay far away from.
I feel like these are the animes to look to that can show how cutesy girl animes aren't necessarily creepy, although there are some comments on boobs in Azumanga. It doesn't distract from the main story though. However, the cute in these shows wouldn't classify as "moe", except maybe Nano, whom I've got sort of a soft spot for.
I can be on your side. I could classify Sawako as moe. Moe describes both the character design and the character personality as a certain kind of cute, as wiki says.
But wiki also says that moe "does not have one concrete definition, but rather has a variety of meanings", which is probably a large cause of the debate. So GAF discussion had fallen to semantics again, but it looks like people are figuring it out. As some people have said, the problem is when they portray adult girls with little girl features like the DFC's and fang girls and sexualize them.
I have to admit that I used to be a big consumer of that kind of moe watching all them harem animes, but lately I can't seem to get into them because I feel like they're just all a bunch of recycled tropes.
SigmasonicX
Member
Since we're on the topic of the ending of The Legend of Korra, I'll clear it up.
What happens at the end is that Korra suggests to Asami that they go on a vacation to the Spirit World, and it ends with them looking at each other and holding hands as they go into a spirit portal. Nothing is explicitly said and they don't kiss or anything, allowing for the creators to deny it if necessary, but it's obvious what's going on.
googleplex
Member
I thought of this when I read this thread. It's a anime 'moe-ish' version of the Western cartoon Gravity Falls. It's fan made with a comparisonwith the original source material. I think it actually works pretty well.
http://youtu.be/TxaudriJ-qw
http://youtu.be/TxaudriJ-qw
that fact that I need to a list of animes that have this element, that you then can continue to defend seems preposterous to me.
pants
Member
Right so anyway. By example
"Potato faced fries are my moe!" is synonymous to "I like potato faced fries!"
So why are we talking about 'moe' or 'like' instead of potato faced fries? It means nothing. It can be applied everywhere.
"Potato faced fries are my moe!" is synonymous to "I like potato faced fries!"
So why are we talking about 'moe' or 'like' instead of potato faced fries? It means nothing. It can be applied everywhere.
I agree with this guy though that the culture surrounding certain groups of people that generally find very problematic content 'moe' is a conversation absolutely worth having. so lets talk about that problematic content and the culture surrounding it? Moe is absolutely not useful the way people are using the term here, as if it means something tangible, as if moe is a look, a manner of speech, a set of behaviors, it's not it's a term that indicates your feelings towards something.
Messofanego
Banned
Oh the creators confirmed it pretty blatantly.
From what I gather, K-On! is one of the flagship series for moe, and it's not about fanservice. You should really dissociate both, since there's nothing in common with them.
Like you said, your series example with the antagonist losing her armor for the sake of fanservice is not moe, and therefore not exactly what this topic is about. There're examples of moe that adds fanservice (just look at anything related to Mikuru Asahina), but that's not the norm.
I think an aspect of moe is cuteness and inocence, which often gets expressed through awkward girls. That awkwardness is in turn often expressed through the character being really easy to pick on due to their innocence (which means they often take things at face value) or due to being clumsy and setting them up for embarassing situations. These two traits can be used in whichever way the writers want, from a fun interaction like that between Ritsu and Mio in K-On! (Ritsu loves picking on Mio's scaredy-cat nature and angering her through manzai-like routines) to Mikuru and Haruhi's relationship (where the former is pushed around and often forced to strip offscreen to change into ridiculous outfits by the latter).
And again, I'll wave around the Sengoku Nadeko card (from the Monogatari series) because she felt like a great deconstruction of the moe stereotype. While it might only be me, I'd say the way the series tried to portray what a real-ish person would actually be if he/she adhered to a particular anyme character stereotype (despite the series being about fantastic elements on the surface) was kind of similar to the way Evangelion deconstructed the tsundere, "lead that gets led around all the time" and mysterious untalkative character stereotypes through Asuka, Shinji and Rei. That alone showed me that moe could be a really effective trope if used well, so I haven't completely lost faith in it, even though I do believe that the way most Japanese media uses it is as a cheap tool to raise sales.
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