Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective

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Blader said:
What I don't buy is how he actually changed his story, though. Because he was always copping to being an accessory to the murder; Adnan being the murderer and Jay helping him was always part of the story. What he kept changing were a lot of the details and timetables, which don't make sense to me as a way of protecting himself. Why would he admit to Adnan showing him Hae's body and helping to bury her, but change when it happened? He's afraid of going to jail for selling weed, so instead of saying they buried Hae after midnight he says it happened in the afternoon? What possible bearing does that have on protecting himself?
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I had a colleague once who couldn't handle vagueness. Whenever he talked about things where specific details weren't present, he would just make up those details. The thing about it, though, was that he didn't do it deliberately, but he unconsciously filled in the gaps and honestly believed that the details were there the whole time. And then, over time, as his memories of those details faded, he would make up new details to fill in the new gaps. This is what I think Jay is doing. The declarations (Adnan killed Hae) and major details (Adnan strangled her, Adnan lent Jay his car, they were at Leakin Park at some time) stay intact, but the minor details (where did Adnan show him the body, what time did they go to Kathy's, etc.) shift around because they keep getting overwritten.
 
effzee said:
So according to Jay Adnan killed Hae because Adnan was a loser.

Case closed.
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Eh. His reputation might have been affected since she was the one breaking up with him, so I can see that angle, and I can most certainly understand how a breakup can be devastating to a person.

I can understand inconsistencies in his story given how much time has passed since then. He definitely didn't do it, there is nothing to gain from that, and Adnan didn't blame Jay, he never even mention potential suspects. All he did was toot his own horn about how "I am a good muslim boy now" and not much of else.
 
RobertM said:
Eh. His reputation might have been affected since she was the one breaking up with him, so I can see that angle, and I can most certainly understand how a breakup can be devastating to a person.
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But by virtually everyone else's account, Adnan didn't care all that much and was already well onto many other girls long before Hae died.
 
Blader said:
But by virtually everyone else's account, Adnan didn't care all that much and was already well onto many other girls long before Hae died.
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Given their off and on again relationship, I do see some validity in the "Adnan didn't realize they were completely broken up until Don. That's when he got really depressed etc." argument.

But I don't know . . . I still have a hard time believing that Adnan would kill someone over something like this. Well, without leaving a bunch more evidence around.
 
brickwalker0 said:
Mr. S working with Mr. B?

COLLUSION
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What about Mr. X?

731_x_xfiles.jpg
 
Nappuccino said:
All of them?

Anyone kinda bummed that this interview is full of leading questions? "Did you feel any shame . . ." should have been "How did you feel?"
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COUNTERPOINT: who the fuck is firstlook.org? I mean, Serial was the number one podcast in the world. I think Jay was smart enough to not go to a top tier news organization
 
"I don’t know how she was murdered, I don’t know exactly how she got put in that trunk, and I told the cops that."

In his earlier stories, he's explained how Adnan murdered Hae.


Tell me about the day she arrived at your house.

There was a knock on my door in late August or early September, I can’t remember exactly when
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When did you hear from her again?

She sent me an email the next day [a copy of this email was provided to The Intercept]

From: “Sarah Koenig” <Sarah> Date: Aug 9, 2014 6:11 AM
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Jay... please go to Best Buy and purchase a fucking sense of time. Or start keeping a diary. Jesus Christ. ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF TIME.
 
OpinionatedCyborg said:
Hahah.

It's obviously Bilal. Rabia and Saad had some nasty things to say about him on reddit. I think Bilal is likely the guy on Serial who told Sarah about Adnan stealing from the mosque.
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"I can say with 100% certainty that Adnan Syed stole at least $100,000 from the mosque. Of course he committed the murder."

Dalek said:
Multiversity Jay.
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In the Captain Carrot universe, Jay has a sense of time.
 
DreamyDrop said:
COUNTERPOINT: who the fuck is firstlook.org? I mean, Serial was the number one podcast in the world. I think Jay was smart enough to not go to a top tier news organization
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Firstlook.org is pretty legit, it's the new site funded by Pierre Omidyar (founder of eBay). The Intercept is the section that's managed by Glenn Greenwald, Jeremy Scahill, and Laura Poitras.
 
This could be huge

There is no statute of limitations for perjury in Maryland, and it’s an offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Coupled with the terms of Wilds’ plea deal, which allow the state to revoke the arrangement if it was ever proven he lied about his involvement in the case (and under which Wilds served no jail time as an accessory after the fact to Lee’s murder), Wilds could potentially face dire consequences.
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http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-serial-adnan-syed-after-jay-wilds-interview
 
Dalek said:
I think that any re trial of Adnad at this point would have to recognize there is reasonable doubt.
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I'm more wondering if there will be a retrial--i mean, they're testing that evidence, but if that doesn't come up with anything major . . . is this interview going to be enough to get one?

It certainly seems like it could, but I don't know.
 
ReAxion said:
This could be huge



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-serial-adnan-syed-after-jay-wilds-interview
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Well, he'd certainly deserve it.

After reading what he wrote I can't say I'm more or less sure of anything besides that Jay is full of it. Hopefully this makes it easier to get the conviction overturned.

Septimus Prime said:
I had a colleague once who couldn't handle vagueness. Whenever he talked about things where specific details weren't present, he would just make up those details. The thing about it, though, was that he didn't do it deliberately, but he unconsciously filled in the gaps and honestly believed that the details were there the whole time. And then, over time, as his memories of those details faded, he would make up new details to fill in the new gaps. This is what I think Jay is doing. The declarations (Adnan killed Hae) and major details (Adnan strangled her, Adnan lent Jay his car, they were at Leakin Park at some time) stay intact, but the minor details (where did Adnan show him the body, what time did they go to Kathy's, etc.) shift around because they keep getting overwritten.
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This is a fair point, but that still means that his testimony is less than worthless, and Adnan should never have been convicted. His story was also full of inconsistencies from the very beginning--as this entire podcast has pointed out, people's memories are spotty, but the fact that Jay's story essentially never stopped changing from the moment he was questioned to today means I can't trust any part of it, even the "big picture" stuff the jury convicted Adnan on like a pack of chumps.
 
RobertM said:
Eh. His reputation might have been affected since she was the one breaking up with him, so I can see that angle, and I can most certainly understand how a breakup can be devastating to a person.
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Except all of the people interviewed for Serial claimed Adnan was sort of a player and was already talking to 2-3 girls during the same time period he would be devastated over Hae.

"And then there is the Nisha call".

I can understand inconsistencies in his story given how much time has passed since then. He definitely didn't do it, there is nothing to gain from that, and Adnan didn't blame Jay, he never even mention potential suspects. All he did was toot his own horn about how "I am a good muslim boy now" and not much of else.
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That's all you got out of it? Adnan basically said as much in the last episode why he hasn't talked about Jay or mentioned his own "theory".

More so his "im a good Muslim now" was a very touching moment because of how it was presented to show his relation with his family. He wasn't really tooting his own horn. If anything anytime he did talk positively about himself, it was more about the food he made or things he does in prison to remain sane.

About Jay's interview:

They included the email Sarah sent him. I don't know I don't see it as unreasonable? She apologizes, mentions how he will be a part of the story no matter what, and that he should be a voice in the show. Seems like he never got back in touch with her again and now is upset that he ended up looking like a shady character. No shit you got demonized.
 
It's interesting that Jay paints Sarah as this opportunistic, threatening bully shaking people down for a story... but then presents an email actually written by her where she's nothing but cordial and profusely apologetic.

It'd be one of thing if Jay said Sarah was being shady and she then put out a statement to defend herself, but Jay is criticizing her while simultaneously submitting proof that, even if she did act inappropriately at the time, she was immediately aware of and sorry for it.
 
Fuchsdh said:
This is a fair point, but that still means that his testimony is less than worthless, and Adnan should never have been convicted. His story was also full of inconsistencies from the very beginning--as this entire podcast has pointed out, people's memories are spotty, but the fact that Jay's story essentially never stopped changing from the moment he was questioned to today means I can't trust any part of it, even the "big picture" stuff the jury convicted Adnan on like a pack of chumps.
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I agree. For the record, I don't believe Jay for a second, and I also even lean toward him trying to "remember" so hard because he needs to continue to support his big lie, even if his brain won't allow him to do it convincingly anymore. The post you quoted is just a possible explanation for why details keep changing while he remains adamant that what he's saying is true. To him, it is true because that's probably exactly how he remembers it (or remembers how he made it up).

I also think the odds of Jay and Adnan being imprisoned should be low. If Jay goes to prison, it would be for perjury, which should make his previous testimony--on which Adnan was imprisoned in the first place--unusable, and since that was the crux of the state's case against Adnan, I don't see how they wouldn't have to at least force a retrial.
 
Blader said:
It's interesting that Jay paints Sarah as this opportunistic, threatening bully shaking people down for a story... but then presents an email actually written by her where she's nothing cordial and profusely apologetic.

It'd be one of thing if Jay said Sarah was being shady and she then put out a statement to defend herself, but Jay is criticizing her while simultaneously submitting proof that, even if she did act inappropriately at the time, she was immediately aware of and sorry for it.
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The mere mention of the murder/case seems to make Jay defensive to the point where his perception of events like Sarah speaking to him seem distorted.
 
Jay's a liar. I'm trying to figure out why he lies and where the lies began.

But you all have some awful Adnan theories.

Guys, players get pissed and dejected when they get dumped like anyone else. Several of my friends fucked around all the time, got caught, got dumped, got depressed, and still fucked around. That really doesn't mean much.
 
Jay lies a lot, Adnan should not have been convicted by a jury. I've said that from the start and this interview solidifies those thoughts. That said, I still think Adnan did it, I simply can't find another plausible explanation given everything about this case I've read. Adnan is very smart to keep his story short and to conveniently forget every key part of that day except the parts where he had corroboration, it prevents us from picking it apart like we can with Jay. His silence was and remains the best possible shot he has.
 
Clipjoint said:
ubfH69S.png
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Now I wonder if Mr. B is Bilal but Jay's just wrong about him being the anon caller.

http://observer.com/2014/12/heres-h...erview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=fsocial
“Well, it might get even better,” Ms. Vargas-Cooper said tantalizingly. “It hasn’t been 100% confirmed, but I do have like two more interviews of people who refused to speak with Sarah who are very big players. … It looks like the prosecutor is going to talk to me and he said he wants to talk about the questions that he would have asked Adnan had he taken the stand.”
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VanMardigan said:
Jay lies a lot, Adnan should not have been convicted by a jury. I've said that from the start and this interview solidifies those thoughts. That said, I still think Adnan did it, I simply can't find another plausible explanation given everything about this case I've read. Adnan is very smart to keep his story short and to conveniently forget every key part of that day except the parts where he had corroboration, it prevents us from picking it apart like we can with Jay. His silence was and remains the best possible shot he has.
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You're unable to think of another plausible explanation because any physical evidence such as DNA, the hairs found on Hae, her fingernails and the rope were never tested.
 
OpinionatedCyborg said:
Now I wonder if Mr. B is Bilal but Jay's just wrong about him being the anon caller.

http://observer.com/2014/12/heres-h...erview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=fsocial
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If Kevin "I'm not authorized to talk about the case" Urick actually speaks to her, I think it confirms my already strong suspicions that he's a dirtbag. Especially if it's "here's what I would've asked Adnan." ...so instead of addressing substantial questions about what actually happened, we're going to get a thought exercise?

I'm not sure how I feel about Vargas-Cooper at this stage. I'm wondering whether there was more depth to her questions, follow-ups, etc... because so far there apparently isn't much. I feel like someone who has been more closely following the podcast might have been a better interviewer (though I suppose from Jay's perspective, maybe that would be worse?). I also wonder if being recommended to a person means that you're fair and even-handed or a softball interviewer?

Given VC's body of work (lots of major publications) and the pedigree of some of the folks behind Intercept, I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt, but those questions all sprang to mind.

I feel worse for Sarah Koenig that sources who (incorrectly, IMO) feel that she's been taking an "exonerate Adnan" angle are speaking out elsewhere instead of on the record with her. In some cases (like Jay's) it's understandable. For someone who's theoretically media-savvy like Urick, it's just a dick move. Hard to fault Vargas-Cooper or The Intercept for that, though...

One of the elements that is clear in Serial, but not clear in this interview (and hopefully becomes moreso) is the amount of legwork, digging, persistence and so on that went into creating that podcast.

EDIT: At any rate, the post-finale weirdness that has started to emerge is, if nothing else, quite interesting.
 
http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/30/exclusive-jay-part-2/

Because I eventually cooperated with the police and testified, I know that there are people back home who would consider me a snitch and would hurt me. So, for the most part, we’ve been really protective about our privacy. My wife would regularly Google my name to make sure none of my personal information would show up. So when these two women show up at my door it sent my wife into a panic. And when we asked them how they got our address, Koenig said something like, ‘Sadly, it wasn’t hard to find.’
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Who is he still afraid of, he moved from Baltimore to LA and his wife is STILL googling to make sure his info is off the net. In the Podcast it was implied he was afraid of Adnan ...but Adnan is locked up

http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/30/exclusive-jay-part-2/

Then I asked her outright, ‘Are you an advocate for Adnan?’ She said ‘No,’ that she wasn’t his advocate. But she said that she had talked to Adnan, and she wanted to get more information about the case. She said there was new evidence,
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^ That's probably refering to the evidence the Innocence Project is trying to get DNA tested.


http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/30/exclusive-jay-part-2/

Anything that’s going to make him innocent doesn’t involve me. Hae was dead before she got to my house. Anything that makes Adnan innocent doesn’t involve me.
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Interesting that he emphasized that in two separate sentences. It's like he wants to be sure the world knows "If anything makes Adnan innocent it doesn't involve Jay".



CDX said:
Interview: What's Next for the "Serial" Investigation by UVA Law

A really interesting audio interview with Deirdre Enright, and the students working on the Innocence Project.

Almost like a bonus Serial episode.
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^ From my previous post. Deirdre Enright from the Innocence Project talking about why Jay could be afraid of the white van outside the porn store, she states at around 2:28 "our theory there was someone who did this with Jay but it wasn't Adnan".


I never put much thought into the 3rd party with Jay theory, but some things he said in this latest interview make me pause and reconsider it.
 
Why would your wife be googling your name like that anyway? And in todays day and age, isn't that almost impossible to do, keep yourself off the net?

And didn't he have a facebook account? How does that square with 'keeping personal information off the net'?
 
I didn't read part 2 yet, but even with the inconsistencies, I'm pretty sure Adnan did it. Not enough evidence to convict, but he did it. I totally get the part about Jay being a truthful liar. In this case he knows Adnan did it, but still didn't want to fess up to his other shady dealings. The part that convinced me was the line about seeing the body outside his grandmother's house and remembering the traffic nearby. That is a more vivid memory than anything Adnan has said about the whole day.
 
Dalek said:
You're unable to think of another plausible explanation because any physical evidence such as DNA, the hairs found on Hae, her fingernails and the rope were never tested.
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This is the most confusing part for me. Did the cops not test these things because they honestly thought that with the single star witness they had and the lackluster circumstantal evidence they had on hand, that they would get a conviction? Or did they conciously choose not conduct any DNA testing because they were concerned there was a better chance the results would hurt their case rather than help it?

Also, as an aside, I stopped by the store on Route 40/Rolling Road where I think Jay used to work. Apparently it's a combination tobacco/porno shop now. I asked the guy who worked there if he had heard about the Serial podcast and knew if this was the location of the store back in '99. He said he didn't know but wanted to look into it.
 
turtle553 said:
I didn't read part 2 yet, but even with the inconsistencies, I'm pretty sure Adnan did it. Not enough evidence to convict, but he did it. I totally get the part about Jay being a truthful liar. In this case he knows Adnan did it, but still didn't want to fess up to his other shady dealings. The part that convinced me was the line about seeing the body outside his grandmother's house and remembering the traffic nearby. That is a more vivid memory than anything Adnan has said about the whole day.
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So a known liar adds in one additional detail about remembering traffic nearby, and it makes it more believable? Just think about it: Jay was at his grandmother's house many times. He would have stood there and heard the traffic many times before. One thing liars are good at is incorporating small, subdtle, and often true details into their lies. Did Jay hear traffic nearby at his grandmother's house before? Probably. But him adding this small detail should not be seen as some sign of a 'vivid' and 'true' memory.
 
turtle553 said:
I didn't read part 2 yet, but even with the inconsistencies, I'm pretty sure Adnan did it. Not enough evidence to convict, but he did it. I totally get the part about Jay being a truthful liar. In this case he knows Adnan did it, but still didn't want to fess up to his other shady dealings. The part that convinced me was the line about seeing the body outside his grandmother's house and remembering the traffic nearby. That is a more vivid memory than anything Adnan has said about the whole day.
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But if it is so vivid and meaningful, why doesn't it all match what he told the police, or what he testified to at the trial? Neither the time or location match his testimony.

Bits and pieces can be completely vivid independently, but drawn in and merged from different, actual memories.
 
cursedDice said:
So a known liar adds in one additional detail about remembering traffic nearby, and it makes it more believable? Just think about it: Jay was at his grandmother's house many times. He would have stood there and heard the traffic many times before. One thing liars are good at is incorporating small, subdtle, and often true details into their lies. Did Jay hear traffic nearby at his grandmother's house before? Probably. But him adding this small detail should not be seen as some sign of a 'vivid' and 'true' memory.
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Neoweee said:
But if it is so vivid and meaningful, why doesn't it all match what he told the police, or what he testified to at the trial? Neither the time or location match his testimony.

Bits and pieces can be completely vivid independently, but drawn in and merged from different, actual memories.
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Like I said, No way they should have convicted, but I believe the big picture stuff about Adnan showing him the body. He was more involved than he wants to admit, especially admitting he lied about where he saw the body on the stand to try and protect his grandmother from getting involved. Adnan can't really throw Jay under the bus because he actually did it.
 
turtle553 said:
Like I said, No way they should have convicted, but I believe the big picture stuff about Adnan showing him the body. He was more involved than he wants to admit, especially admitting he lied about where he saw the body on the stand to try and protect his grandmother from getting involved. Adnan can't really throw Jay under the bus because he actually did it.
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Can you explain why you believe Jay when he says that Adnan showed him the body? Does it stem solely from the fact that he knew where Hae's car was?

Also, him admitting he lied and saying that he did it to protect his grandma is the kind of convenient excuse a liar would use to cover up previous lies. It does nothing to make Jay more believable. In fact, Jay continued telling lies after the cops informed him that he and his family would not be in trouble for his weed selling. Therefore, him using that as an excuse 15 years later doesn't make his story any more believable.
 
cursedDice said:
Can you explain why you believe Jay when he says that Adnan showed him the body? Does it stem solely from the fact that he knew where Hae's car was?

Also, him admitting he lied and saying that he did it to protect his grandma is the kind of convenient excuse a liar would use to cover up previous lies. It does nothing to make Jay more believable. In fact, Jay continued telling lies after the cops informed him that he and his family would not be in trouble for his weed selling. Therefore, him using that as an excuse 15 years later doesn't make his story any more believable.
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Can't give a specific reason I believe him, just a feeling that he isn't lying about seeing the body. I believe he could still be wary of promises made by the police and not want to get his grandmother involved at all. Like if the police went around asking if neighbors saw anything that night.
 
CDX said:
I never put much thought into the 3rd party with Jay theory, but some things he said in this latest interview make me pause and reconsider it.
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It's interesting to me and I entertain it because it's almost to think a third party did the deed, because even if you have to construct a motive for this random party, no one else particularly seems to have one. Adnan's only reason would be that he was cut up about the breakup *this time*, when there's plenty of testimony that he didn't seem broken up about it. Jay's clearly sketchy and he's got a post-trial criminal record, but again, he doesn't have much of a reason to kill someone he barely knows. Don? Again, not much of a reason. Serial killer or random killing? It doesn't fit the usual patterns (no sign of rape, et al.)

Whatever the truth of the crime is, I'm inclined to believe it could easily be pretty much any weird scenario that's been tossed out on Reddit, because from my vantage point there's no "likely" scenario that's been borne out thus far.
 
turtle553 said:
Can't give a specific reason I believe him, just a feeling that he isn't lying about seeing the body. I believe he could still be wary of promises made by the police and not want to get his grandmother involved at all. Like if the police went around asking if neighbors saw anything that night.
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No further questions, your honor.
 
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