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[Kevtones]

1. Adnan gets embarrassed by parents at the school dance.
2. Adnan and Hae almost break up.
3. Hae meets Don. She likes Don.
4. Adnan gets dumped by his first girlfriend, Hae.
5. According to her letter, Adnan doesn't respect her decision and was being very difficult.
6. Adnan, to this day, claims he had no difficulties with the breakup.
7. Two people, other than Jay, verify that Adnan asked Hae for a ride that day.


Well there's a lie directly from Adnan about his recent feelings towards the murder victim and a concrete motive.


What's Jay's motive? What's his motivation to lie about Adnan, his acquaintance and sometimes pot constituent?


Was Jay having a secret affair with Hae? Was she triple-timing with Don and Jay and suddenly the already-double-timing Jay found out about Don and strangled her in Hae's car and navigated the day while hanging out with Hae's ex-boyfriend?

Or maybe Jay knew that dredged up local murderer and he was like 'well he deserves another chance and I kinda know this one girl vaguely, let me play matchmaker'. Well Hae invited that murderer into her car because she kinda knew Jay but rejected his advances and he killed her. Jay, depressed about his matchmaking foible and Hae's death, conceals the body with this killer and blames Adnan. He also accomplishes this somehow while spending the entire day with Adnan and the killer but Adnan is stoned that he can't remember any of it.



It makes a lot of sense that it's Adnan. Again the real tragedy is the loss of Hae.

 

[BertramCooper]

Can't give a specific reason I believe him, just a feeling that he isn't lying about seeing the body.

And this is how we end up sending innocent people to jail.

Maybe or maybe not in this case, but certainly in loads of other cases.

 

[JCX]

I didn't read part 2 yet, but even with the inconsistencies, I'm pretty sure Adnan did it. Not enough evidence to convict, but he did it. I totally get the part about Jay being a truthful liar. In this case he knows Adnan did it, but still didn't want to fess up to his other shady dealings. The part that convinced me was the line about seeing the body outside his grandmother's house and remembering the traffic nearby. That is a more vivid memory than anything Adnan has said about the whole day.

I strongly recommend listening to Ted Radio Hour: Memory Games. The first segment is about a case with no physical evidence with someone convicted based on multiple eyewitness testimonies. Also discusses why a memory being vivid does not necessarily mean than it is more true than a less vivid memory.

 

[3rdman]

But if it is so vivid and meaningful, why doesn't it all match what he told the police, or what he testified to at the trial? Neither the time or location match his testimony.

Bits and pieces can be completely vivid independently, but drawn in and merged from different, actual memories.

This is BY FAR my biggest problem with his testimony. I would think that seeing a dead body in a trunk of a car would be a pretty damn traumatic and memorable and yet his version of where this happened changes

How in the world do you forget that?!?!? I can certainly understand other instances of his testimony changing because things can be fuzzy but this specific thing really bothers me. Were it me, it'd be the one constant in my story...how do you forget that???

 

[BertramCooper]

Why the hell is Jay even talking?

Is it purely hubris? I can't fathom any other reason why he'd be saying anything right now.

 

[rugioh]

"No, I haven't listened to any of the podcast. But can you believe what they're saying about me on reddit?"

Lmao exactly.

 

[Dalek]

Why the hell is Jay even talking?

Is it purely hubris? I can't fathom any other reason why he'd be saying anything right now.

I have no idea why he's talking, but he's absolutely making things worse for him by doing so. He's basically perjuring himself for no reason.

 

[3rdman]

I have no idea why he's talking, but he's absolutely making things worse for him by doing so. He's basically perjuring himself for no reason.

I haven't had the time to really dig into this new interview...how exactly did he perjure himself?

 

[Malyse]

I haven't had the time to really dig into this new interview...how exactly did he perjure himself?

His story doesn't match up.

 

[Blader]

Why the hell is Jay even talking?

Is it purely hubris? I can't fathom any other reason why he'd be saying anything right now.

He didn't want to talk to Sarah because he figured not being interviewed extensively would effectively keep him out of the case and motivate to her move on to someone else (lol what? his testimony is THE lynchpin of the entire case). Serial happens anyway and Jay comes off badly especially without any present day commentary on the case. To help set the record straight and clear his name, because now it's definitely not going away, he decides talk to...whoever the hell this news site is.

I don't think it's hubris, just confusion, bad decision-making, and (probably) a lie somewhere that he still doesn't know how best to handle.

 

[cursedDice]

1. Adnan gets embarrassed by parents at the school dance.
2. Adnan and Hae almost break up.
3. Hae meets Don. She likes Don.
4. Adnan gets dumped by his first girlfriend, Hae.
5. According to her letter, Adnan doesn't respect her decision and was being very difficult.
6. Adnan, to this day, claims he had no difficulties with the breakup.
7. Two people, other than Jay, verify that Adnan asked Hae for a ride that day.


Well there's a lie directly from Adnan about his recent feelings towards the murder victim and a concrete motive.


What's Jay's motive? What's his motivation to lie about Adnan, his acquaintance and sometimes pot constituent?


Was Jay having a secret affair with Hae? Was she triple-timing with Don and Jay and suddenly the already-double-timing Jay found out about Don and strangled her in Hae's car and navigated the day while hanging out with Hae's ex-boyfriend?

Or maybe Jay knew that dredged up local murderer and he was like 'well he deserves another chance and I kinda know this one girl vaguely, let me play matchmaker'. Well Hae invited that murderer into her car because she kinda knew Jay but rejected his advances and he killed her. Jay, depressed about his matchmaking foible and Hae's death, conceals the body with this killer and blames Adnan. He also accomplishes this somehow while spending the entire day with Adnan and the killer but Adnan is stoned that he can't remember any of it.



It makes a lot of sense that it's Adnan. Again the real tragedy is the loss of Hae.

There is a huge difference between it seeming to 'make a lot of sense' and it actually having happened. Read this story of an innocent man convicted of murdering his wife:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/innocent-man-part-one

In this story, it is easy to see how it 'seemed to make a whole lot of sense' that Michael Mortan killed his wife, even though he did not. You could make the same arguments for the Michael Moore case (before DNA exonerated him) as you are making for Adnan's case.

 

[3rdman]

His story doesn't match up.

LOL None of his stories match up!

How exactly is he perjuring himself? Was this interviewed done in a court? Perhaps I'm uneducated on this but I thought you could only be accused of perjury if you lie under oath which I really doubt occurred here.

 

[Malyse]

LOL None of his stories match up!

How exactly is he perjuring himself? Was this interviewed done in a court? Perhaps I'm uneducated on this but I thought you could only be accused of perjury if you lie under oath which I really doubt occurred here.

He's saying his testimony wasn't true. How is that anything but?

 

[turtle553]

No further questions, your honor.

I said he shouldn't have been convicted, doesn't mean he didn't do it. I think that is a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Dalek]

LOL None of his stories match up!

How exactly is he perjuring himself? Was this interviewed done in a court? Perhaps I'm uneducated on this but I thought you could only be accused of perjury if you lie under oath which I really doubt occurred here.

There is a possibility for it. He had a plea deal, which allow the state to revoke the arrangement if it was ever proven he lied about his involvement in the case.

 

[Kevtones]

There is a huge difference between it seeming to 'make a lot of sense' and it actually having happened. Read this story of an innocent man convicted of murdering his wife:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/innocent-man-part-one

In this story, it is easy to see how it 'seemed to make a whole lot of sense' that Michael Mortan killed his wife, even though he did not. You could make the same arguments for the Michael Moore case (before DNA exonerated him) as you are making for Adnan's case.

Of course. If 'makes sense' were evidence we'd all be fucked.

I guess my main point though is that we're all really concerned with Jay's imprecise but vivid testimony while we have Adnan, who has no recollection, a very intimate connection with the victim, and he's outright lied about his feelings about her around her time of death. And he still does.

I guess let's ask: why would Jay lie vs. why would Adnan lie? Further, why would Jay come forward if he had done something or if he had done something with someone else? Wouldn't it make more sense if he were implicated for him to remain COMPLETELY quiet?

 

[3rdman]

He's saying his testimony wasn't true. How is that anything but?

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the interview...he actually admits to lying on the stand???

 

[Kevtones]

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the interview...he actually admits to lying on the stand???

I don't remember this being stated..?

 

[bionic77]

Why the hell is Jay even talking?

Is it purely hubris? I can't fathom any other reason why he'd be saying anything right now.

He came off so badly in that interview to 'clear his name' that at this point I am not even sure Adnan is involved.

You can't convict anyone on the word of this guy. Either he is a pathological liar or he is insane. Police and prosecutors really dropped the ball relying on this scumbag.

 

[ReAxion]

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the interview...he actually admits to lying on the stand???

Yes. He lied about where and when he saw the body because he didn't want his grandma involved; the guy who ran his drug operation out of her basement.

He came off so badly in that interview to 'clear his name' that at this point I am not even sure Adnan is involved.

You can't convict anyone on the word of this guy. Either he is a pathological liar or he is insane. Police and prosecutors really dropped the ball relying on this scumbag.

And they essentially paid for his testimony by providing him representation.

 

[BertramCooper]

He came off so badly in that interview to 'clear his name' that at this point I am not even sure Adnan is involved.

You can't convict anyone on the word of this guy. Either he is a pathological liar or he is insane. Police and prosecutors really dropped the ball relying on this scumbag.

Not to mention what must have been a really stupid jury. I'd blame them as well, though obviously not as much as the sleazebag prosecution.

 

[faceless007]

LOL None of his stories match up!

How exactly is he perjuring himself? Was this interviewed done in a court? Perhaps I'm uneducated on this but I thought you could only be accused of perjury if you lie under oath which I really doubt occurred here.

No, you're right. To clarify, he's not perjuring himself now; he's admitting that he committed perjury back in the original trial. Which is, apparently, still a prosecutable offense as there's no statute of limitations for perjury. Oops.

 

[Blader]

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the interview...he actually admits to lying on the stand???

He didn't say "I lied in court," but he's presenting a completely different story to the one he testified to under oath.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I'm hoping we get a special Serial episode or two that follows up on the case.

It's been taken down.

 

[turtle553]

No, you're right. To clarify, he's not perjuring himself now; he's admitting that he committed perjury back in the original trial. Which is, apparently, still a prosecutable offense as there's no statute of limitations for perjury. Oops.

He used his lawyer to reach out and set up an interview. I doubt any serious problems with perjury will come from this since there is nothing other than his own words to dispute what was in his testimony. Plus, they could have just gone about perjury charges on anything that changed between the two trials. He'll be fine.

 

[Dalek]

He used his lawyer to reach out and set up an interview. I doubt any serious problems with perjury will come from this since there is nothing other than his own words to dispute what was in his testimony. Plus, they could have just gone about perjury charges on anything that changed between the two trials. He'll be fine.

 

[Nappuccino]

It's been taken down.

Is it? I just clicked on it and I'm listening now.

Maybe your browser just didn't like it?

 

[turtle553]

To clarify:

Only what was said during the trial or other affidavits are legally binding. This is just an interview he gave to some reporter and not under oath. There is no physical evidence to point to him lying.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2007/03/how_many_ways_can_you_say_lie.html

This is a federal case, but I think the standards are similar:

It gets more complicated. In Libby's indictment, prosecutors used the term "perjury" in a colloquial sense. In fact, he is charged with breaking 18 U.S.C. § 1623—or, the "false declarations" law—rather than 18 U.S.C. § 1621, aka the perjury law. The two are very similar, but false declarations tend to be easier to prove. For one thing, perjury convictions must be based on evidence from at least two witnesses; false declarations can be proved without any witnesses. Prosecutors can show that Libby made "false declarations" simply by showing that his statements to the grand jury were inconsistent. (As with perjury, false declarations must be knowingly made and about an important issue.)

Just for anyone that thinks this will lead to perjury charges.

 

[jond76]

I always thought what looks bad for Adnan is that while Jay, whose story may wiggle but always says that Adnan showed him a body and helped move Hae's car, fingers Adnan, Adnan can barely think of anything that happened that day. The day his ex went missing. If someone is going to pin me with a murder, I'm damn sure going to have my ducks in a row regarding my whereabouts if it's going to clear me. I'm sorry, but at this point Adnan is the only one who makes sense. I'm standing by for evidence stating otherwise.

 

[CDX]

It's been taken down.

Is it? I just clicked on it and I'm listening now.

Maybe your browser just didn't like it?

The Interview: What's Next for the "Serial" Investigation by UVA Law ?? Yeah, it still works for me too


Maybe try this MP3 link, that was posted earlier in the thread
http://www.law.virginia.edu/podcast/1415/serial.mp3

 

[cursedDice]

Of course. If 'makes sense' were evidence we'd all be fucked.

I guess my main point though is that we're all really concerned with Jay's imprecise but vivid testimony while we have Adnan, who has no recollection, a very intimate connection with the victim, and he's outright lied about his feelings about her around her time of death. And he still does.

I guess let's ask: why would Jay lie vs. why would Adnan lie? Further, why would Jay come forward if he had done something or if he had done something with someone else? Wouldn't it make more sense if he were implicated for him to remain COMPLETELY quiet?

What is so "vivid" about his testimony? I found nothing vivid about his constantly changing story. If anything his testimony is extremely muddy.

Also, why would Adnan have any memory of the day, if he wasn't involved? And what 'outright lie that he continues with until this day' are you talking about? Please provide specific examples with proof that he is lying. Unlike Jay, where it's easy to prove he lied, I cannot remember any specific examples of Adnan being proven to have lied. I'm willing to change my stance on this if you can provide examples.

As for why Jay would lie and why he would insert himself into the investigation if he was involved, there are several possibilities. First off, he WAS involved: he helped bury her body. A better question would be, why would he help bury her body if he wasn't involved? According to Jay's own story, he had several opportunities from the time Adnan showed him the body to the time they buried her together, to remove himself from the situation. Instead we are supposed to believe that he was afraid? Or something? Any reasonable person would be scared shitless of helping to bury a murdered girl's body, more-so than any other trouble one might get in from weed.

I agree though, it doesn't make sense that Jay would lead Police to Hae's car if he was involved (and he is). However, there could be reasonable explanations to this that we just can't fathom because we don't have all of the information.

 

[jond76]

What is so "vivid" about his testimony? I found nothing vivid about his constantly changing story. If anything his testimony is extremely muddy.

Also, why would Adnan have any memory of the day, if he wasn't involved? And what 'outright lie that he continues with until this day' are you talking about? Please provide specific examples with proof that he is lying. Unlike Jay, where it's easy to prove he lied, I cannot remember any specific examples of Adnan being proven to have lied. I'm willing to change my stance on this if you can provide examples.

As for why Jay would lie and why he would insert himself into the investigation if he was involved, there are several possibilities. First off, he WAS involved: he helped bury her body. A better question would be, why would he help bury her body if he wasn't involved? According to Jay's own story, he had several opportunities from the time Adnan showed him the body to the time they buried her together, to remove himself from the situation. Instead we are supposed to believe that he was afraid? Or something? Any reasonable person would be scared shitless of helping to bury a murdered girl's body, more-so than any other trouble one might get in from weed.

I agree though, it doesn't make sense that Jay would lead Police to Hae's car if he was involved (and he is). However, there could be reasonable explanations to this that we just can't fathom because we don't have all of the information.

No one here ( I think) was at the trial, so given all the what-ifs and doubts it makes sense to come up with reasonable doubt here and now.

But what about the jurors? They had a witness pointing the finger at Adnan, a defense attorney that was trying to blame that witness for the murder despite the lack of a clear(or any) motive. Cell phone pings, diary entries talking about Adnan being pissed... Then, to top it all off, Adnan doesn't take the stand, to even TRY to defend himself or deny that he murdered Hae.

Given all that, if Adnan can't even be bothered to get up and deny it(even if he was just going with what his lawyer advised), of course that would push the jurors beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[ReAxion]

Then, to top it all off, Adnan doesn't take the stand, to even TRY to defend himself or deny that he murdered Hae.

Given all that, if Adnan can't even be bothered to get up and deny it(even if he was just going with what his lawyer advised), of course that would push the jurors beyond a reasonable doubt.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Criminal defendants are innocent until proven guilty and are not even required to present a speck of evidence in their defense -- much less to testify.

 

[Kevtones]

What is so "vivid" about his testimony? I found nothing vivid about his constantly changing story. If anything his testimony is extremely muddy.

It's muddy but it has always had the color. Color and details that arise from concentrated thought about memory as opposed to construction.

Also, why would Adnan have any memory of the day, if he wasn't involved? And what 'outright lie that he continues with until this day' are you talking about? Please provide specific examples with proof that he is lying. Unlike Jay, where it's easy to prove he lied, I cannot remember any specific examples of Adnan being proven to have lied. I'm willing to change my stance on this if you can provide examples.

Adnan claims that the relationship didn't affect him, and he has others around him that say it 'wasn't' affecting him. That he seemed okay with it.

However, you have a letter from Hae that shows that he wasn't okay with it. That he wasn't respecting her decision and it was frustrating Hae. That shows a facade in Adnan, that he portraying a face of 'okay', when really, he was challenging Hae's decision and not being okay with it. Why else would she seem so frustrated…


Excerpt from Hae's letter:

I'm really getting annoyed that this situation is going the way it is....Your life is NOT going to end. You'll move on and I'll move on. But, apparently, you don't respect my decision....I NEVER wanted to end this like this, so hostile and cold....Hate me if you will. But you should remember that I could never hate you.

Adnan sounds as if he was not taking it well by any account.

 

[jond76]

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

I know that, I'm saying that maybe the defense did the prosecutions job with her ineptitude.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

I always thought what looks bad for Adnan is that while Jay, whose story may wiggle but always says that Adnan showed him a body and helped move Hae's car, fingers Adnan, Adnan can barely think of anything that happened that day. The day his ex went missing. If someone is going to pin me with a murder, I'm damn sure going to have my ducks in a row regarding my whereabouts if it's going to clear me. I'm sorry, but at this point Adnan is the only one who makes sense. I'm standing by for evidence stating otherwise.

Did you mean to say that he doesn't make sense? Because otherwise you're not making sense.

 

[cursedDice]

It's muddy but it has always had the color. Color and details that arise from concentrated thought about memory as opposed to construction.




Adnan claims that the relationship didn't affect him, and he has others around him that say it 'wasn't' affecting him. That he seemed okay with it.

However, you have a letter from Hae that shows that he wasn't okay with it. That he wasn't respecting her decision and it was frustrating Hae. That shows a facade in Adnan, that he portraying a face of 'okay', when really, he was challenging Hae's decision and not being okay with it. Why else would she seem so frustrated…


Excerpt from Hae's letter:


Adnan sounds as if he was not taking it well by any account.

Okay. You make a decent point with regards to Adnan's outward attitude vs. what he may have been feeling inside. However, misleading people about his feelings after a break-up, especially when admitting to being angry might make him look more guilty, seems like a much more reasonable deception than Jay's.

Also, there is HUGE gulf between the severity of the lies. I myself have 'lied' about how angry an ex-girlfriend has made me feel...that feels like a normal lie that ANYONE is capable of making, especially when your ex was murdered. Lying like Jay has done for 15 years takes a whole different kind of person.

 

[jond76]

Did you mean to say that he doesn't make sense? Because otherwise you're not making sense.

Haha, sorry. I meant: Adnan as the killer makes sense.

 

[RustyNails]

It's muddy but it has always had the color. Color and details that arise from concentrated thought about memory as opposed to construction.




Adnan claims that the relationship didn't affect him, and he has others around him that say it 'wasn't' affecting him. That he seemed okay with it.

However, you have a letter from Hae that shows that he wasn't okay with it. That he wasn't respecting her decision and it was frustrating Hae. That shows a facade in Adnan, that he portraying a face of 'okay', when really, he was challenging Hae's decision and not being okay with it. Why else would she seem so frustrated…


Excerpt from Hae's letter:



Adnan sounds as if he was not taking it well by any account.

Adnan's attitude is not uncommon at all! That kind of stuff where you're all "macho" in front of others about a breakup whereas it's slowly eating your guts inside, it's all too commonplace. It's absolutely in no-way evidence even suggesting that he murdered Hae. Jay's testimony on the other hand, that's straight up perjury if you ask me.

 

[VanMardigan]

Okay. You make a decent point with regards to Adnan's outward attitude vs. what he may have been feeling inside. However, misleading people about his feelings after a break-up, especially when admitting to being angry might make him look more guilty, seems like a much more reasonable deception than Jay's.

Also, there is HUGE gulf between the severity of the lies. I myself have 'lied' about how angry an ex-girlfriend has made me feel...that feels like a normal lie that ANYONE is capable of making, especially when your ex was murdered. Lying like Jay has done for 15 years takes a whole different kind of person.

Jay lies, we know this. But you're assigning some sinister angle to it, rather than assuming he's the type of person who is loosey goosey with the facts. We have a FANTASTIC example of how Jay can lie, yet still be truthful in the most basic points: the Intercept interview where he references talking to Sarah Koenig.

-We have a big event where Jay SHOULD remember the details better (the Koenig visit), yet he is off on the day it happened by almost a MONTH, even though he has an email he could refer to, and even though it happened JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

Now, was he lying about when SK visitied him? Technically yes, but there really isn't any reason why he would have to lie, there isn't any malicious intent. Now let's suppose that Koenig wants to deny that she ever visited Jay. If we didn't have the email from SK with the dates and her own words on the Serial podcast, she could easily say she never visited and we'd all be saying he lied about it because she could have had an alibi for late August/Early September (like the fact that she wasn't even in LA at the time). Yet, guess what, Sarah Koenig was in LA, she did visit his house, and she did ask him questions. So, the basic gist is right, but Jay is way off on the dates and some details of what was said.

In the same way, Adnan has chosen to remain mum on key parts of that day. Jay, on the other hand, won't shut up, and so it's easy to pick his stories apart, because he is obviously horrible at timelines and stories and dates. The interview he just did confirms that he is off even when there is no reason to lie.

This is why I believe that, even though the timelines are all screwed up, Adnan did show Jay the dead body in a trunk, and they both dug a grave for Hae. And between those two, only Adnan had the motive to actually commit the murder.

 

[cursedDice]

Jay lies, we know this. But you're assigning some sinister angle to it, rather than assuming he's the type of person who is loosey goosey with the facts. We have a FANTASTIC example of how Jay can lie, yet still be truthful in the most basic points: the Intercept interview where he references talking to Sarah Koenig.

-We have a big event where Jay SHOULD remember the details better (the Koenig visit), yet he is off on the day it happened by almost a MONTH, even though he has an email he could refer to, and even though it happened JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

Now, was he lying about when SK visitied him? Technically yes, but there really isn't any reason why he would have to lie, there isn't any malicious intent. Now let's suppose that Koenig wants to deny that she ever visited Jay. If we didn't have the email from SK with the dates and her own words on the Serial podcast, she could easily say she never visited and we'd all be saying he lied about it because she could have had an alibi for late August/Early September (like the fact that she wasn't even in LA at the time). Yet, guess what, Sarah Koenig was in LA, she did visit his house, and she did ask him questions. So, the basic gist is right, but Jay is way off on the dates and some details of what was said.

In the same way, Adnan has chosen to remain mum on key parts of that day. Jay, on the other hand, won't shut up, and so it's easy to pick his stories apart, because he is obviously horrible at timelines and stories and dates. The interview he just did confirms that he is off even when there is no reason to lie.

This is why I believe that, even though the timelines are all screwed up, Adnan did show Jay the dead body in a trunk, and they both dug a grave for Hae. And between those two, only Adnan had the motive to actually commit the murder.

Saying that there was no malicious intent in the 'lie' about when Sarah visited is certainly not evidence that he wasn't being malicious in his lies that got Adnan convicted. It just confirms that Jay lies all the time, about things big and small.

As for 'assigning malicious intent' to Jay's lies as opposed to assuming he is a loosey gooesy, why are you assuming he is 'just' loose with the facts? There seems to be as much evidence that Jay is outright lying than just playing loose. Why are you choosing to believe that Jay's lies are benign? Being loose with the facts when it involves a murder case seems like almost as big of a no-no as outright lying.

Why Jay is talking and Adnan is keeping his mouth shut: just imagine for a second that Adnan is innocent. What could he actually say that he hasn't said already? Nothing as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong about what he could say, then please provide examples.

As for why Jay keeps talking: there could be any number of reasons as to why Jay keeps on talking and changing his story. However, Jay talking and Adnan not is not evidence that Adnan was involved.

EDIT*: I should state for the record: I think it's equally likely that Adnan is guilty or innocent. However, I cannot believe a word Jay says...and Jay is the only person who absolutely had something to do with Hae's death/burial.

 

[Gustav]

Adnan's attitude is not uncommon at all! That kind of stuff where you're all "macho" in front of others about a breakup whereas it's slowly eating your guts inside, it's all too commonplace. It's absolutely in no-way evidence even suggesting that he murdered Hae. Jay's testimony on the other hand, that's straight up perjury if you ask me.

There is a huge difference between wanting to be "macho" and not admitting feelings and expressing your feelings towards a person in such a way that the person finds the chosen way of expression to be off, in a negative way.

 

[cursedDice]

There is a huge difference between wanting to be "macho" and not admitting feelings and expressing your feelings towards a person in such a way that the person finds the chosen way of expression to be off, in a negative way.

You are saying that a teenage boy who was heart-broken was having trouble communicating his feelings maturely and calmly? You believe this is a rare occurrence? I'm sure plenty of the girls I dated in High School could have said the same things about me...because I was an immature teenager who had no idea how to deal with the complex emotions that flare up after a break-up.

What you are saying has no bearing what-so-ever on whether or not Adnan is guilty.

 

[VanMardigan]

EDIT*: I should state for the record: I think it's equally likely that Adnan is guilty or innocent. However, I cannot believe a word Jay says...and Jay is the only person who absolutely had something to do with Hae's death/burial.

Equally likely? Who would've been just as likely to kill Hae as Adnan?

 

[SickBoy]

Jay Part 3: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/31/jay-speaks-part-3/

 

[Dr.Acula]

Equally likely? Who would've been just as likely to kill Hae as Adnan?

The problem is that we only have Adnan, Jay, Don, and a mystery serial killer in front of us.

Hae was a popular, attractive, high school girl. Think back to your HS days. How many people would a girl like Hae be friendly with? Be willing to get into a car with? Easily 100+. Adnan, Jay, and Don aren't her entire universe.

The podcast focused largely on reconstructing Adnan's day. SK interviewed Jay's friends at the house that Adnan had only ever met once. We get this really detailed break-down of everyone Adnan could have seen that day, acquaintances like Asia in the library.

If we tried to recreate Hae's day it would go the exact same way. A dozen people that never even got a mention would pop up and become "characters" on Serial.

I don't think if Adnan is innocent it means Jay is guilty. I don't think because Don's mom saw him it means Don's alibi is air tight. I just know there are serious problems with the case.

As to Jay's motives, even if he's not involved, he is by his own admission terrified of the police arresting him on drug charges. Take a black kid, put him in a police interview about a murder, dangle drug charges over him, dangle murder charges over him, spend hours talking to him without a lawyer, without a tape recorder running... The police could have gotten him to admit to shooting Kennedy.

 

[cursedDice]

Equally likely? Who would've been just as likely to kill Hae as Adnan?

It's possible to say the exact same thing about other murder cases, such as the one I and others have already posted in this thread, the story of Michael Mortan.

You could easily look at that case through the lens of what was publicly known and state the same thing: "Who would've been just as likely to kill his wife as Michael?" And nobody could've answered that question. That doesn't mean Michael did it. And the Michael Mortan story doesn't even have a Jay style criminal character involved in the case, lying, changing his story over and over, and pointing a finger.

If the Adnan saga did not have a Jay-like figure, I would most likely not be able to say that it was equally likely...but Jay is a part of this story: so yes, I believe it to be equally likely that Adnan is guilty or innocent.

 

[Dalek]

Everyone needs to read that Michael Mortan story. The parallels are there. Dude left an angry note and his wife's bedside saying he was angry with her, and leaves for work. Comes home and his wife is dead in her bed. Police see the note and think "well who else would it be?"

Next thing you know an innocent man is in prison for 25 years. "A serial killer? Lol. Ok sure."

 

[CDX]

Jay Part 3: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/31/jay-speaks-part-3/

When was the last time you talked to Stephanie?

I called her yesterday. We’re only loose acquaintances now. But since I’ve been talking more, I just wanted to make sure she was OK with it—that I was opening up about all this. Because, like I said in the past, I had shielded her from as much of this as I could. We got into it a little bit. I told her that she was naive about Adnan. After the murder, she didn’t believe that he did it. We argued a little bit because I leaned on her and said, ‘I wouldn’t have ever really been in contact with Adnan had she not suggested that I sell weed to him.’

So for the first time we learn Stephanie's thoughts about Adnan. She didn't think Adnan did it, and apparently -if I'm reading it correctly- her and Jay were still fighting about it right before Jay's interview.

That's really interesting She doesn't believe her then boyfriends testimony, AND they stayed a couple for years afterwards. I can only wonder what sort of private conversations they had about this.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Jay Part 3: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/31/jay-speaks-part-3/

I like how in an earlier part Jay talks about all this honor and pride Adnan had over Hae and how it was this big sticking point, then when it comes to Stephanie he talks about how high school romances aren't that big a deal.

I also like how he posts those reasonable and neutral-sounding e-mails by SK and concludes she is out to DESTROY HIM.