Sibersk Esto
Banned
This is what I always did.
I have a GAF Bias against comic books.
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This is what I always did.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I've read comics for 40 years, and I agree with the OP an extent.
Modern, shared-universe superhero comics are way way more interconnected and stretched out than they used to be. I quit reading most mainstream superhero stuff about 2 years ago and when I hear about something that sounds interesting, it's still hard to pick up.
The large focus on the "universe" over the story really hurts them for casual readers, while rewarding the core fanbase. This (IMHO) traces back to the dawn of the annual crossover events. It's pretty clear to see why comics readership is diminishing.
Modern, shared-universe superhero comics are way way more interconnected and stretched out than they used to be. I quit reading most mainstream superhero stuff about 2 years ago and when I hear about something that sounds interesting, it's still hard to pick up.
The large focus on the "universe" over the story really hurts them for casual readers, while rewarding the core fanbase. This (IMHO) traces back to the dawn of the annual crossover events. It's pretty clear to see why comics readership is diminishing.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I'm the same, OP. Comics were never big here, so that might have something to do with it, but I just don't get it either.
When reading comics though, the confusing part is the utterly random bolding that occurs in dialogue bubbles. Any comic book fans care to explain?
When reading comics though, the confusing part is the utterly random bolding that occurs in dialogue bubbles. Any comic book fans care to explain?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I can't knock them for that since I see that in manga as well (the famous JoJo brackets come to mind).
It's not really plot conventions, it's more how they're distributed that is the biggest issue.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Do you have examples?
You're probably referring to "comic book logic" which is something I have always made fun of in my years of loving Marvel comics, but it's really just something minor you can let slide in order to enjoy a good story.
I don't really care that Captain America didn't actually die and was just shot by some sort of stupid magic time bullet. In the Marvel universe, seeing a world react to the death of Steve Rogers made for one of the best character arcs I've read in the last 15 years. The fact that his "death" was some stupid comic book thing and that he eventually came back doesn't lessen that at all for me.
Yup. OP prefers manga and makes up excuses for not liking western comics. It's clear.
OP, I'm not a single issue comic reader. I only buy omnibi/hardcovers or TPBs. It's great. The stories are (for the most part) self contained.
I'll never understand it. They don't even bold words that it would make sense to emphasize.
the character is putting emphasis on that word
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Lots of conventions. San Diego Comic Con, New York Comic Con, Chicago Comic Con...
Aquamarine
Member
you would think that, but sometimes you come across instances where the emphasized bold text is seemingly random and makes no sense.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Frank Miller thinks it looks intense, when really it looks stupid
Think of it as the writer trying to convey the inflection in the speaker's voice. Bold doesn't mean loud but that there is a tonal shift. For instance, if you're reading something a character says sarcastically a bolded word means putting in a specific kind of emphasis there.
Well, if you're up for a recommendation, maybe read Invincible. It's a superhero book but I'd describe its storytelling as more similar to manga. One author, no crossovers or gigantic shared universe to worry about, no convoluted retcons. It's also really damn good, or it was when I still read it - haven't kept up in a long time.
edit: and of course there's many non-superhero western comics out there. Transmetropolitan's probably one of my favorites.
Wiktor
Member
Nah. Manga is nowhere near as bad in this area. There;s plenty of mangas devoid of strong convetions and even those that do use them are much easier to accept than what superhero comicbooks throw regularly at their readers.
Mangas and superhero comics aren't really comparable anyway. One is a big wide group of comics from one country, the other is specific genre that covers only portion of comics from specific country.
Mac the KNife
Member
I understand what he's saying and agree with him. Comics like Amazing Spider-Man or Uncanny X-Men are beholden to 50+ years of continuity and he finds that intimidating. Add frequent renumbering (Marvel) or half-hearted reboots (DC), or multiple titles per character (Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational, Web of, Peter Parker, Marvel Knights, etc) I can understand why he'd be confused & intimidated. Both Marvel & DC to a fairly bad job promoting good starting points for their impossibly large catalogs of material.
I've never read a manga, but seeing them at a bookstore, they look like pretty straightforward numbered volumes. Still a lot of material, though.
The assumption seems to be that you need to have some grand holistic understanding of everything that has canonically happened to the main character/local universe to fully appreciate what is happening in any given western comic book story.
Asking for a point A to point B to point C linear structure that ties everything together is really pointless. Sure, you could start with the first Spider-Man comics, and then read up to the point where Parker's saga ends, but aside from very specific moments, the material is written so you don't need to. All you really need to know for 95% of it is that Parker was a science nerd, and has spider-powers.
Details like how Uncle Ben's death affected him, or his relationships with Gwen, Mary Jane, the Osbornes, Aunt May, etc. can all be picked up mid-stream pretty easily. If you're curious enough to find out the history behind any of those things you pick up on, you can go look up their story arcs and read those. Reading out of order is not a problem. Most of the time, the writing is designed for that.
That's why the usual answer to: "Where do I start?" is some well-regarded, well-liked story arc at some random point in the series. As long as you don't jump in mid-stream of an arc, you don't really need much (if any) previous knowledge to enjoy the material.
Get over the idea that you have to understand everything. Unless you pick a relatively new series/character/universe, or have a ton of time to devote to reading everything there is, then just pick a story arc, and jump in. You'll be fine. You will not drown. You might miss one or two in-jokes. That will not ruin it for you. It will be ok.
Asking for a point A to point B to point C linear structure that ties everything together is really pointless. Sure, you could start with the first Spider-Man comics, and then read up to the point where Parker's saga ends, but aside from very specific moments, the material is written so you don't need to. All you really need to know for 95% of it is that Parker was a science nerd, and has spider-powers.
Details like how Uncle Ben's death affected him, or his relationships with Gwen, Mary Jane, the Osbornes, Aunt May, etc. can all be picked up mid-stream pretty easily. If you're curious enough to find out the history behind any of those things you pick up on, you can go look up their story arcs and read those. Reading out of order is not a problem. Most of the time, the writing is designed for that.
That's why the usual answer to: "Where do I start?" is some well-regarded, well-liked story arc at some random point in the series. As long as you don't jump in mid-stream of an arc, you don't really need much (if any) previous knowledge to enjoy the material.
Get over the idea that you have to understand everything. Unless you pick a relatively new series/character/universe, or have a ton of time to devote to reading everything there is, then just pick a story arc, and jump in. You'll be fine. You will not drown. You might miss one or two in-jokes. That will not ruin it for you. It will be ok.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
That's a good recommendation. It's set in DC universe, but you'll barely notice after a while.
And it's a fantastic comic to boot.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Just because the characters have 50+ years of history doesn't mean that it's all required reading.
It's as simple as someone saying "hey spidey, it's that one guy who did that one thing that one time!" The information required to enjoy the current story is usually repeated multiple times throughout multiple issues to keep the reader properly informed.
You should encourage yourself to check out Wikipedia entries and stuff for more background details, but a good comic is never just going to reintroduce some obscure character from 1972 and never explain who he is, where he came from, or how he interacted with Spider-Man in the past.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
the renumberings are good starting points. the 50+ years of continuity arent really an issue since most comics barely refer to things that happen 5 years ago
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I thought I was crazy because no one I know ever talks about it. I always just assumed that was bad editing. It's probably the most frequent writing error I see in comics, and it doesn't seem to have a pattern.
Wiktor
Member
Never ending stories with almost nothing permanent happening (since sooner or later it will be reversed) and characters who are stuck in endless limbo for decades, never growing up.
If you think about it, no other medium of storytelling does that on regular basis. Movies, tv shows and books have trained people into following contained stories with clear start and end. Accepting superheroes requires much higher level of abstaction from it's reader. The fact that characters get passed into different teams regularly, ones that usually have different vision of this character, also doesn't help.
Now. I don't mind any of those, but they are things you need to get used to because of how wildly different they are from traditional storytelling styles.
I'm struggling to think where comics would actually be if you really did need to read 50 years of stories to make sense of current releases.
PsychBat pls.
PsychBat pls.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
It's the first thing I thought of.
Me jibbering in the corner.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Because most of that impossibly large catalog isn't referenced or important to modern story lines and (A lot of) the ones that are get collected in trades or omnibuses. It may not seem like it for someone just getting into comics, but these companies purposefully keep the "Important" (IE Memorable/Popular/Significant to the character) stuff in print so that people don't have to go scrounging for important floppy issues that will cost them an arm and a leg.
Mac the KNife
Member
I understand this because I'm in the ecosystem. Our friend, the OP, is not.
He's coming from a world where everything is simply numbered. American superhero comics are much more complicated. If he's standing in front of a shelf of books, he probably doesn't know if he wants Amazing Spider-Man or Ultimate Spider-Man. Add the fact that there are multiple first volumes of both of those series. I understand his confusion and frustration.
Marvel & DC do a poor job of pushing their best stuff.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Everyone would have to be Doctor Manhattan or something
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yeah I have a few friends who can't get over the suspension of disbelief need for the sliding time scale used in most long-running superhero comics.
I usually just tell them to think of it like The Simpsons. Bart and Lisa will always be 10 and 8 years old despite making references to events in the late 80s, early 90s, early 00s and the current day. If you think too hard about it, it definitely gets into the territory of mental gymnastics.
Coffee Dog
Banned
If you read the entire back catalogue for people like Spider-Man or batman, you've read more than the people writing the books unless they're wizards like Grant Morrison.
Delta Assault
Member
It depends on the writer. I'm pretty confident Mark Waid has read the entire backlog of Superman. Kurt Busiek as well.
BKatastrophe
Member
This made me laugh far harder than I think it was ever meant to.
As for comics, honestly, it isn't that hard to jump on. It seems daunting but it isn't once you get past the mental hurdle of "I need to know everything." You don't. You could go to a comic book store, and (assuming it's like the one I frequent) look at the wall of new releases for issues. See it? Go over there. Look for anything that both interests you and has a #1 on it (DC and Marvel make it a strong point to emphasize said number). Pick it up and buy it. You now have a comic that you are free to get into without any prior knowledge. You can do the same with trades, just look for one that has a #1 on it. It's fairly simple. Even if you are confused and find it a bit daunting (and at the store) just ask the staff. They'd be more than happy to help someone get invested in something they also like (and also makes them money). Of course, I happen to have a very positive experience with the comic book store I go to, so I don't know if that'll happen.
Also, Dorkly did an article on how to get in to the Big Two. So feel free to read that as well.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Now that I think about it, does anyone actually watch/read long-running Shonens from years ago without skipping all of the filler?
I've never seen any of the filler episodes of Naruto all the way through the first arc after the time skip, for example. And I only watched one filler arc of Bleach (and not even to completion). I look up online where the story gets interesting, and I just jump in there.
I've never seen any of the filler episodes of Naruto all the way through the first arc after the time skip, for example. And I only watched one filler arc of Bleach (and not even to completion). I look up online where the story gets interesting, and I just jump in there.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yeah also the character too as you're pointing out. It's not a stretch to imagine that Waid has also done all the research on Daredevil.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I think it's a shame that superhero comics seem to dominate. I remember going to a comic arts festival a year ago and being surprised at how many original comics and books I saw that get no exposure (on GAF at least).
I have no interest in superhero comics beyond a few cartoons and movies I've seen before.
So getting to see that there are indeed comics that don't focus on those things was great. I only wish that people posted about them more like others do with anime threads in offtopic since I don't think I've seen any threads concerning any of the comics I saw at the festival.
The only one I can remember at the moment is a thread about underrated comics. But the vast majority of western comic threads seem to be centered on Marvel/DC.
I have no interest in superhero comics beyond a few cartoons and movies I've seen before.
So getting to see that there are indeed comics that don't focus on those things was great. I only wish that people posted about them more like others do with anime threads in offtopic since I don't think I've seen any threads concerning any of the comics I saw at the festival.
The only one I can remember at the moment is a thread about underrated comics. But the vast majority of western comic threads seem to be centered on Marvel/DC.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
then start like i did. pick one. i started with a handful of my cousins daredevil comics, and moved out from there. the large numbering while not as large as now, was still very large with various books. like i said, its easier now more than ever to just pick up and read an issue and test if it peaks your interest
What do you mean by "filler"? If you asked me about filler in the manga itself, I'd say, "No such thing." If you're asking me about filler in terms of the anime, I'd say that any of the episodes or story arcs that were created expressly for the anime would be filler - so basically these lists.
ConfusingJazz
Member
Isn't the answer to someone who finds the comic rack daunting just to point them towards the trade paperback section? Find some recommended arcs online, and just buy those?
Usually all necessary information is told through the story itself, sometimes a bit ham-fisted, but still!
Usually all necessary information is told through the story itself, sometimes a bit ham-fisted, but still!
BKatastrophe
Member
This kind of thing is the only time that I approve of people skipping episodes of a series they are watching for the first time. I never understand that mentality.
Disregarding most of the manga digression in the OP, I feel the same way.
I don't "get" comic books. I don't get super heroes. I don't get the movies that have flooded theaters starring the super heroes and the stories about them in comic books. I don't understand the appeal. I didn't as a video game playing kid, a video game and MTG playing teenager, or the still dorky adult I am now, so it's not as if I've existed outside the target demo. Given the explosion of movies, I'm dumbfounded at the wide appeal beyond explaining it away as simply "action movie with explosions".
I've read a few manga in my life but they've not been the Naruto/something variety, as I never understood the appeal there, either. It's been sappy reality romance stuff that might as well be a prolonged drugstore novel, and it's the guiltiest of pleasures (sad Nana never got the ending it deserved). Even then, I understand how limited the appeal is.
I don't "get" comic books. I don't get super heroes. I don't get the movies that have flooded theaters starring the super heroes and the stories about them in comic books. I don't understand the appeal. I didn't as a video game playing kid, a video game and MTG playing teenager, or the still dorky adult I am now, so it's not as if I've existed outside the target demo. Given the explosion of movies, I'm dumbfounded at the wide appeal beyond explaining it away as simply "action movie with explosions".
I've read a few manga in my life but they've not been the Naruto/something variety, as I never understood the appeal there, either. It's been sappy reality romance stuff that might as well be a prolonged drugstore novel, and it's the guiltiest of pleasures (sad Nana never got the ending it deserved). Even then, I understand how limited the appeal is.
isn't birdy the one who goes into comic threads and says "western comix sux, lol" and everyone goes "oh, birdy, you manga zealot/fool." and then we go on with whatever?
so what else is new? I had to check to make sure this wasn't a necrobump because I have some deju-va going on something awful.
there's a genre divide that exists for a reason. you might think it's superficial, but if you just don't get western comics and superhero comics in particular, and this isn't a new development from a traditional media format that has existed in its current form for over a century, if you're intimdated by 20 pages of beefslabs in longjohns beating each other up over mistaken identity and then defeating the real villain in the last 5 pages, then maybe this medium just isnt for you....
so what else is new? I had to check to make sure this wasn't a necrobump because I have some deju-va going on something awful.
there's a genre divide that exists for a reason. you might think it's superficial, but if you just don't get western comics and superhero comics in particular, and this isn't a new development from a traditional media format that has existed in its current form for over a century, if you're intimdated by 20 pages of beefslabs in longjohns beating each other up over mistaken identity and then defeating the real villain in the last 5 pages, then maybe this medium just isnt for you....
:lol
Mac the KNife
Member
Hey, same here. My parents came home from a silent auction with a really nice Marvel Masterworks volume of old Spider-Man comics. It was pure coincidence that is was great material that I ended up liking.
I agree that it's easier than ever to find something, but first impressions count for a lot. If potential new readers are at all intimidated by your product you might not doing a good enough job presenting it.
Mumei brought up a good point, though. Dipping your toes in the pool seems a hell of a lot easier in western comics with easy, self-contained stuff like Dark Knight Returns or Spider-Man Blue. Stuff like One Piece or Naruto are intimidating for an entirely different reason.
I think the Marvel and DC comics definitely have a problem with their continuity being a bit overwhelming.
Try picking up this X-Men #1 without any knowledge about Marvel and you'll have no clue what the hell is going on
With Mangas you're usually pretty safe with starting at issue 1
Of course are there also Marvel and DC #1s that actually introduce you to the characters and universe but nothing on the cover tells you if foreknowledge is required or not.
Try picking up this X-Men #1 without any knowledge about Marvel and you'll have no clue what the hell is going on
With Mangas you're usually pretty safe with starting at issue 1
Of course are there also Marvel and DC #1s that actually introduce you to the characters and universe but nothing on the cover tells you if foreknowledge is required or not.
Nah someone else
Chezzymann
Member
Usually if you get a hardcover book that has a whole or most of a characters arc you don't really need to have any prior knowledge, so essentially its like reading dragon ball #1
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Honestly, your avatar is what I'd consider an example of bad-art (but since it's an avatar, I assume you chose it for the impression it gives rather than how good it looks), or at least unappealing to me.
I guess a lot of comic art I see is just sort of goofy looking, or too "fluid", where the characters seem to change how they look sometimes in between panels. I don't think manga is inherently superior, but the art tends to be a bit more cleaner, if simplistic, which I appreciate. Comics are too garish for me for some reason.
Uh, no. You're definitely mistaken. I don't think I've ever entered a comic thread to bash them, and I'm certainly not MangaGaf's spokesman either. In fact I don't even hang out with MangaGaf because I rarely read manga now.
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