John Kowalski
Banned
posting porn on gaf? how far have we fallen
I wish that somebody would make a Slice of Life moe comedy anime about feminists.
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
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posting porn on gaf? how far have we fallen
HolyBaikal
Banned
I've heard bad things about it, so I think I would rather not. :<
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Nah that's consistent with past opinions. Most of my problem with this kind of stuff comes from various forms of objectification I perceive, including when the focus on purity comes up. Baikail's personal stances are...altogether more complicated and alien to me.
hydrophilic attack
Member
So an anime that's about objectifying various feminist thinkers?
Well, oh boy, that sure sounds great.
Well, oh boy, that sure sounds great.
It's empowering.
Not just a lot but the vast majority of them. Anime is made for them, as they are the ones who spend ridiculous amounts of money on overpriced BDs and paraphernalia. Anime is a business and shows are made to generate money and I don't think many otas would be interested in a show about feminism.
That post you make when you scratch the surface of HB. DY out there yelling you have no idea.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I feel like you're joking with me.
I am expressing myself honestly and earnestly with everyone. I... I like it when people do the same with me.
Maybe it's a harmful joke, and you're just being lighthearted. By I feel like it's a joke that isn't good natured and is at my expense.
Crash Station
Member
Haven't you and HB butted heads before?
Sounds like what all the female friends of your 'feminist waifu" would say in support of them
GamePnoy74
Member
OP, I don't know if this fits your bill, but have you checked out Princess Jellyfish?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Jellyfish
Out of curiosity I bought the blu-ray set for my wife a while back...even though we only watched a couple of episodes we thought it was hilarious of what we saw...give it a try. =)
Edit: I didn't see 'moe' in the title...nevermind, my bad. But check it out still!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Jellyfish
Out of curiosity I bought the blu-ray set for my wife a while back...even though we only watched a couple of episodes we thought it was hilarious of what we saw...give it a try. =)
(Slightly OT...the going prices for the blu-ray set nowadays is insane.)
Edit: I didn't see 'moe' in the title...nevermind, my bad. But check it out still!
Get the flamethrowers, we must purge this place!
HolyBaikal
Banned
I'm... confused. What do you mean?
Cameron122
Member
I want no mo' moe anime
*cries bitterly*
*cries bitterly*
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Baikal I do believe that you're coming from a genuine place the vast majority of the time, but I think part of the problem that a lot of people have trying to communicate with you is cropping up here: acting like people expressing different perspectives are doing so in bad faith. What if TUSR really does believe the movie is empowering? Maybe you'd disagree with that (hell maybe I'd disagree with it) but there's no way to find out if we just assume that they're not being candid themselves
And yeah, I get that a lot of that comes from people genuinely being sarcastic with you
HolyBaikal
Banned
He made fun of and degraded me in the virtual reality thread. :<
Yeah, I don't get this quote either. Are you saying Baikal loves an anime girl? Even though he's an anime girl himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI9hgp32-f0
HolyBaikal
Banned
You're absolutely right. I'm sorry. :<
Crash Station
Member
There was a whole book of dictators represented as moe girls. I think Hitler was a tsundere art student or something.
Edit: Yep
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But I am actually interested in this subject. Baikal, what do you think that the moeness would bring to a feminist work? Is it just aesthetic? Are there thematic components?
HolyBaikal
Banned
No, I don't think so.
I guess many people think that moe and feminism are mutually exclusive, but I don't.
Why not form your own opinion?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
That's the show were all the girls are drawn like little kids, despite being over 18, and work in an adult bookstore so...
no in fact I once wrote a very long, understanding post in an attempt to reach out to him and was ignored
Crash Station
Member
I think it's just a manga store with an adult section.
I can't imagine this happening.
When concepts, objects, and historical figures are turned into cute little girls, it's not really a good method of enhancing understanding. It's a way that allows people to avoid engaging with the ideas behind them to attach to the superficial. Kantai Collection is a great example of this. If Yamato is your waifu, that has nothing to do with what she historically represented, and everything to do with whatever superficial characteristics they decided mapped from the largest warship Japan ever created, built in the last stages of the war and bombed to oblivion by American planes, to a cute girl. There's an enormous amount of fan material surrounding Kantai Collection, and very, very little of it has anything to do with the "source material" for these female characters.
I'm sure feminists would be horrified to find themselves transformed into moe archetypes known more for their character designs than for their ideology. The very etymology of moe (from 萌える, to bud, to sprout), reflects something developing that needs to be cared for. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's antithetical to promoting ideas meant to be taken seriously, that are meant to be able to stand powerfully and independently.
I don't really have a problem with that, when it's done in sort of a "look how crazy this is, haha" fashion but if the intend is to tackle the issues in any serious way it's kind of messed up
Isn't Moe a product of viewers wanting innocent, subservient, and often young characters?
I mean feminism is about not being forced into a a particular role isn't it?
So you're essentially saying "Ya I want a show about a strong female characters with no stereotypes, but make sure they're submissive, cute and all these other things"
I mean feminism is about not being forced into a a particular role isn't it?
So you're essentially saying "Ya I want a show about a strong female characters with no stereotypes, but make sure they're submissive, cute and all these other things"
Snkfanatic
Banned
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This more or less matches my concerns
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Well, the main little-girl looking character...
You can see why this raises red flags in my mind. Not the fact that she likes porn, but the fact that she's infantalized and drawn like a little girl, and her character revolves around her being embarrassed by her sexuality, rather than owning it.
I would love to see a really well-read feminist perspective on this show.
The candy coating for a bitter pill.
Honestly, I don't know if it would even serve well for that. That's what Vivian James was created for, and look how that turned out.
HolyBaikal
Banned
To me, moeness means being endearing and adorable. And adorable means being likeable. Moe characters are endearing and likeable to otaku.
Some things that are found endearing can be empowering to women. Like Kuudere, or being "cool". That's not degrading to women if viewers find cool women moe. But finding sexual purity and needing to be protected, as a moe trait, is degrading to women. It's a form of control.
And merchandising images of women isn't necessarily degrading. The Frozen characters Elsa and Anna are kind of like moe characters. There is merchandise of them everywhere. But they are also empowering characters that young girls can relate to.
I think that one of the problems of feminists is that they're not treated as endearing characters that viewers are supposed to like in the media. Being moe characters would make many people more invested in them and more likely to be sympathetic to feminist ideals. It would make the idea of feminism more approachable and less alien and scary.
Moe like Hetalia has helped people understand history. Maybe moe could also help people understand and be interested in feminism.
Maybe people would like feminists more, if they were treated as lighthearted, loveable, endearing, relatable characters, in a lighthearted show?
No, in fact I did the opposite. I wrote a long post about the things I deal with a daily basis in an attempt to show you that misfortune is an integral part of life that we can't do without. I was very understanding and thorough. And it was very difficult to write because I had never before revealed on the internet the information in that post. I don't think you even saw it, even though I PMed you with the link to the post so you would look at it.
This is the opposite of true.
Change that to, "I want a show about strong female characters with no stereotypes, as long as they fall into these 6 very specific anime archetypes," and yeah, there's your sign.
That Kantai Collection analogy is a very good one. That franchise isn't getting people into the history of nautical machinery, people are interested in it because the waifu-ication of each ship caters to a specific sexualized archetype. The background of the show matters very little when 90% of the people watching it are doing so because the girl who wears the thong and the striped kneehigh stockings is being cute.
Did it? Because everyone I know who was super into Hetalia still failed history. That show was eventually more about gay fanservice than it was about retelling historical information.
Crash Station
Member
That's kind of a misleading description since it's brought up in a single instance and pretty much never mentioned again. Most of the time, she doesn't even have distinguishing traits beyond "lol, hiotan has big boobs". She's a non-character.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I'd rather see a slice of life comedy anime about actual feminists who aren't drawn to appeal to male otaku.
I, too, would like a second season to Jellyfish Princess.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I would hope so. I liked the idea of trying to teach history through cute characters.
You can't teach history that way. History isn't cute, nor are historical figures. Many of them were monsters.
I'd say the first half of the first season does an interesting job of retelling certain events and motivations of WW2.
The rest of that show though, has almost nothing to do with history and, as I said, is more about shipping and catering to fujoshi.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I get that but as others are pointing out that may not be the lens through which these kinds of things are actually being viewed. Maybe something that was more explicitly aimed at children would work, but the intersection between "adult (often male) audience" and "cute girl in anime" seems to often be an objectifying one.
I just want to chime in that the Russian girl you link four videos of in the OP to call Stalin and USSR moefied, is from a show called Girls und Panzer. It's about girls learning the traditional "martial art" tankery/tankwondo because that's seen as becoming a great woman. In it, girls from varies countries (including Japan, Russia, England, America) face off in tank battles. As you linked the Russian war song Katyusha, let's also link the British Grenadier March.
Not sure what point you were trying to make by linking this, but it bugged me as you seemed to draw conclusions without knowing the material.
Not sure what point you were trying to make by linking this, but it bugged me as you seemed to draw conclusions without knowing the material.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
But as you can see from this thread, people don't find that endearing. They find it obnoxious.
But the point of feminism is to challenge the status-quo.
You just seem to be missing that point, that social change is rarely friendly or appealing to those in power. Feminism NEEDS to have a level of uncomfortableness to help show why it's necessary to bring about change.
It makes people dress like Nazi as cosplay and trivialize horrific events.
cosmicblizzard said:
I honestly don't know much about the show...
But either way, from what you posted it seems like it probably isn't an example of a feminist series lol.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Yeah, it kind of went downhill.
Though I still respect fujoshi and otaku cultures and I think they can have good things.
Being an otaku or fujoshi doesn't mean you can't learn or respect feminism.
No, you totally can. Valiant Hearts is a VERY interesting teaching tool when it comes to offering new angles on german/french/polish motivations in WW1.
Mauz is cute. But it's also brutal and heart wrenching.
Watership Down is cute. Then it tells the story it wants to tell and does so unapologetically and unabashedly.
To be fair, Hellsing was doing that before Hetalia was even a thought. And Gundam was doing it even before that.
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