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[Spider from Mars]

I wish that somebody would make a Slice of Life comedy anime about feminists where they are all men instead of women. I don't feel very comfortable with women so I would like the message better if they were men instead.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Well, not to offend you, but I think you do sort of have an issue with acting a bit---infantile. It doesn't have anything to do with your tastes or anything, rather I think people are a bit bugged by how you always talk about your feelings getting hurt in extremely vague terms, and needlessly apologize for things you don't have any reason to apologize for. So, yes, I do think you're infantalizing yourself in your attempt to be more like moe characters.

I don't know if that's infantile, but I do like to be honest with my feelings and express them. And it is true that I'm a very sensitive person.

But if that's infantalizing, I guess I like that then. And I like being infantile and that makes me happy.

 

[Ryuukan]

I don't know. If it's the defition in Google, then I don't think so. And I can see why people think that infantization is bad.

But if this is infantilization, the way I like to behave and the things I enjoy. Then I like infantilizing myself. And find it empowering.

You should contact the Simon Wiesenthal Center and pitch a show about 4 moe Jewish girls who played together in Dachau during the 30s

 

[Puruzi]

I don't know if that's infantile, but I do like to be honest with my feelings and express them. And it is true that I'm a very sensitive person.

But if that's infantalizing, I guess I like that then. And I like being infantile and that makes me happy.

Why would you be happy that you constantly talk about what makes you unhappy on a forum?

 

[HolyBaikal]

Why would you be happy that you constantly talk about what makes you unhappy on a forum?

I talk about what makes me emotional in all sorts of different ways. Whether it makes me happy or sad. I'm easy to feel happy or sad. Though most of the time I'm very very happy.

I don't think it's healthy to bottle it up inside. So sharing my feelings makes me feel better.

 

[Fugu]

I talk about what makes me emotional in all sorts of different ways. Whether it makes me happy or sad. I'm easy to feel happy or sad. Though most of the time I'm very very happy.

I don't think it's healthy to bottle it up inside. So sharing my feelings makes me feel better.

I don't think it's healthy to reduce your feelings into happiness and sadness.

 

[HolyBaikal]

I don't think it's healthy to reduce your feelings into happiness and sadness.

You're right, they're more complicated than that.

But happiness and sadness are pretty common feelings.
Do I not share other feelings as much? Maybe I should.

 

[Teslacrashed]

Funnily, a lot of anime, despite their physical depictions of women with large breast and panties, I find to be pretty feminist positive.

Anime has a strong early history of powerful female characters, driven, hard working, and often not needing a man. From Miyazaki to Anno. Toriyama's females can be a bit hit or miss, but you still have more strong characters than your typical western cartoon.

Again, it's about a slightly better average than it's Western counterpart, not that it's a bastion of all things feminism.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I don't know if that's infantile, but I do like to be honest with my feelings and express them. And it is true that I'm a very sensitive person.

But if that's infantalizing, I guess I like that then. And I like being infantile and that makes me happy.

But the problem is you're not honest with your feelings, you express yourself through superficial 'feelings' which makes it hard to engage with you. If you were honest with your feelings, you wouldn't just say "oh this makes me feel bad!", you'd actually tell us why you disagree with our statements, and have a bit more agency. You can be cute, but still act like an adult when it comes to engaging with other adults. "Moe" isn't cute, it's the opposite of cute. Cute is a natural thing, moe isn't natural, it's just a fake style manufactured to sell merchandise and idols.

As you can see, by making yourself a "moe" archetype, you've basically proven my point about how I can't see "moe" and "feminism" co-existing. Imagine those famous historical figures in a debate go "oh, that makes me feel bad. I'm sorry!". The status-quo would never change.

 

[freenudemacusers]

op i think you should go cold turkey on anime for a ... couple months.

 

[Ryuukan]

You're right, they're more complicated than that.

But happiness and sadness are pretty common feelings.
Do I not share other feelings as much? Maybe I should.

 

[HolyBaikal]

But the problem is you're not honest with your feelings, you express yourself through superficial 'feelings' which makes it hard to engage with you. If you were honest with your feelings, you wouldn't just say "oh this makes me feel bad', you'd actually tell us why you disagree with our statements

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but that sounds like sharing my opinions... rather than my feelings.

But maybe I should share more complicated feelings... somehow.

 

[Mechanical Snowman]

Don't.

No, but seriously. This thread doesn't make any sense without context, why refer to a mysterious other thread multiple times and not link it?

 

[tbm24]

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but that sounds like sharing my opinions... rather than my feelings.

But maybe I should share more complicated feelings... somehow.

Where do your opinions derive from?

 

[Puruzi]

No, but seriously. This thread doesn't make any sense without context, why refer to a mysterious other thread multiple times and not link it?

bumped a thread about a game called Nekopara and said that a girl crying during sex was wrong , even though it was completely consented to. I played it recently, and the character in question was the happiest I'd ever seen anyone be about having sex. But seriously, that thread got locked, so yeah.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Where do your opinions derive from?

My memories.

I know that opinions and feelings are together. But expressing my opinions and my emotions feels... a little different.

 

[Shiina]

Please stay away from anime and Japanese entertainment in general.

 

[Crash Station]

I wonder how Anita would feel if there was a moe representation of her.

But in cases like that it just strikes me as a "despite being moe". Like whenever I hear that show brought up, it's "well, it's a great show despite having little moe girls..."

Madoka is kind of a special case because of the art style dissonance. There's some really dark shit going on that is effectively jarring because of the art style.

well, i don't think i've ever seen a moe discussion online that was about adult characters, and whenever moe is discussed here, proponents seem to describe it on terms of innocence, 'cute' characters and such...

People describe the grandma from Denpa Onna as moe.

 

[Puruzi]

Madoka is kind of a special case because of the art style dissonance. There's some really dark shit going on that is effectively jarring because of the art style

Yep this is what I was saying

 

[HolyBaikal]

I didn't like some things about Madoka. I like Magical Girl anime, and Madoka Magica was kind of a deconstruction of all the things I like about Magical Girl anime. It was so depressing.

I did like Madoka, though. She was a Jesus-type figure I could really look up to and want to be like.

 

[Ferrio]

You want to be Jesus?

 

[HolyBaikal]

You want to be Jesus?

Jesus is a common moral figure that people look up to.

Madoka was Jesus-like in having a similar moral purity, and through

Spoiler

her almost omnipotence at the end of the anime.

Even though I'm not religious, I do like many things in the beatitudes.

 

[studyguy]

Shows with a complete dissonance of themes presented vs art style are dope.

You'd think it's about moeblobs at first glance, not the slow struggle of starvation and eventual extinction of the human race. Shame they didn't adapt more of the LN.

 

[The Technomancer]

Moe characters always strike me, as well, like dolls. They have a really superficial personality, have a sort of innocence to them and imply a need to be "protected", and just don't seem to have any agency. One of the posters in my thread made a great point about how there's no such thing as a moe-character who is actually 'sex-positive', there's always an awkwardness about them that is made to appeal to the viewer. The opposite of how I imagine a feminist icon would be.

Right, naiveté seems to be important in moe. Well...that might be the wrong word. Moe characters are rarely seen as "wanting" or "desiring" anything it seems, outside of perhaps the most generic of "friendships". That's why they're unrealistic, and I struggle to think of how you would approach that on a genuinely feminist axis, since feminism is very much concerned with what women and men desire.

 

[Crash Station]

Shows with a complete dissonance of themes presented vs art style are dope.

And in the opposite direction, we got Cromartie High School, Starring Freddie Mercury.

 

[Mechanical Snowman]

bumped a thread about a game called Nekopara and said that a girl crying during sex was wrong , even though it was completely consented to. I played it recently, and the character in question was the happiest I'd ever seen anyone be about having sex. But seriously, that thread got locked, so yeah.

Sounds about as interesting as I'd imagined. Thanks!

 

[HolyBaikal]

Right, naiveté seems to be important in moe. Well...that might be the wrong word. Moe characters are rarely seen as "wanting" or "desiring" anything it seems, outside of perhaps the most generic of "friendships". That's why they're unrealistic, and I struggle to think of how you would approach that on a genuinely feminist axis, since feminism is very much concerned with what women and men desire.

There are plenty of moe characters who desire all sorts of things.

I think that plenty of moe characters have good characterization and emotional depth. They can be subjects in fiction just as much as objects. I want to see more more characters who are more subjects.

 

[The Technomancer]

Here's another way to think about it: feminism is implicitly concerned with women's interactions with men, just by virtue of the reality of our social landscape. And moe slice of life shows, at least those I've seen, often seem to go out of their way to avoid having their female cast significantly interact with men. Perhaps there are some cute boys at school or whatever, although even that's not entirely common.

 

[Crash Station]

And moe slice of life shows often seem to go out of their way to avoid having their female cast significantly interact with men. Perhaps there are some cute boys at school or whatever, although even that's not entirely common.

I'm not an expert on moe anime, but if we're just talking about art style and presentation, I can think of multiple examples where this isn't true. Stuff like Denki-gai from last season definitely fits the bill.

 

[Beefeater]

Baikal, if you want me to see you as a moe anime girl you've succeeded.

As you can see, by making yourself a "moe" archetype, you've basically proven my point about how I can't see "moe" and "feminism" co-existing. Imagine those famous historical figures in a debate go "oh, that makes me feel bad. I'm sorry!". The status-quo would never change.

This. The irony is tangible.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not an expert on moe anime, but if we're just talking about art style and presentation, I can think of multiple examples where this isn't true. Stuff like Denki-gai from last season definitely fits the bill.

Hm, alright. This isn't my area of expertise, I will admit. My exposure has been scattered between a handful of recommendations from various people and the occasional "maybe I'll give this a chan-nope!"

Although my knowledge of that show is that it does actually engage in some adult themes. I wonder how much people would classify it or its cast as "moe". That's a genuine wonder

 

[HolyBaikal]

Here's another way to think about it: feminism is implicitly concerned with women's interactions with men, just by virtue of the reality of our social landscape. And moe slice of life shows, at least those I've seen, often seem to go out of their way to avoid having their female cast significantly interact with men. Perhaps there are some cute boys at school or whatever, although even that's not entirely common.

There are definitely reasons for some shows like K-On! or Axis Powers Hetalia for having a one gender cast. And not all of them are good. It would be nice to see more gender diversity in these shows. And more characters with boyfriends and girlfriend instead of this purity thing which I think is really bad.

 

[Crash Station]

Hm, alright. This isn't my area of expertise, I will admit. My exposure has been scattered between a handful of recommendations from various people and the occasional "maybe I'll give this a chan-nope!"

I guess you could argue the definition of "slice of life" if you want here. Would it count if there are romantic subplots even if the focus is the day to day life of the characters? Or what about just straight-up wacky comedies that utilize both genders acting like idiots while also going about their daily lives? Plenty of both of those.

Although my knowledge of that show is that it does actually engage in some adult themes. I wonder how much people would classify it or its cast as "moe". That's a genuine wonder

Well it is seinen, so it's aimed at adult men. I think from an outsider's perspective, it would still be classified as moe, and not just in an intentionally deceptive way like Madoka.

 

[dramatis]

Moe can't be everything. Sometimes certain subject matters are better explored through alternative presentations.

 

[The Technomancer]

I guess you could argue the definition of "slice of life" if you want here. Would it count if there are romantic subplots even if the focus is the day to day life of the characters? Or what about just straight-up wacky comedies that utilize both genders acting like idiots while also going about their daily lives? Plenty of both of those.



Well it is seinen, so it's aimed at adult men. I think from an outsider's perspective, it would still be classified as moe, and not just in an intentionally deceptive way like Madoka.

The definition of slice of life doesn't concern me so much, but the definition of moe does seem...relevant. Its a hard thing to pin down.

Baikal, how do you define it? Is it just aesthetic? Are there necessary thematic components?

 

[entremet]

And in the opposite direction, we got Cromartie High School, Starring Freddie Mercury.

Looks like a Mike Haggar without roids.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Baikal, if you want me to see you as a moe anime girl you've succeeded.

Yay! Hooray!

 

[SDBurton]

There are definitely reasons for some shows like K-On! or Axis Powers Hetalia for having a one gender cast. And not all of them are good. It would be nice to see more gender diversity in these shows. And more characters with boyfriends and girlfriend instead of this purity thing which I think is really bad.

Now you're going off the deep end.

 

[HolyBaikal]

I'm talking about how some otaku become upset when anime characters or idols have boyfriends. What did I say wrong?

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Here's another way to think about it: feminism is implicitly concerned with women's interactions with men, just by virtue of the reality of our social landscape. And moe slice of life shows, at least those I've seen, often seem to go out of their way to avoid having their female cast significantly interact with men. Perhaps there are some cute boys at school or whatever, although even that's not entirely common.

That's probably because "slice of life" shows are focused on "slice of life" aspect, not exploring romance. There is a whole genre dedicated to romance between women and men where that subject is explored. At most you can expect any kind of romance to be a minor subplot, in the same way that it would be in any other genre that's not focused on developing the romantic relationships between characters.

 

[Shiina]

I'm talking about how some otaku become upset when anime characters or idols have boyfriends. What did I say wrong?

You don't even seem to understand who these shows are made for. And this is the biggest reason why an anime about feminism is never going to happen.

 

[Beefeater]

Wow, he/she doesn't value purity?

 

[HolyBaikal]

You don't even seem to understand who these shows are made for. And this is the biggest reason why an anime about feminism is never going to happen.

A lot of them are otaku men who like 2D waifu characters. And a lot of them can sadly be very misogynist.

But that doesn't mean it's not possible I don't think.

 

[Spider from Mars]

Animu has ruined your life

 

[God Dayumm]

I'm talking about how some otaku become upset when anime characters or idols have boyfriends. What did I say wrong?

I'm an otaku and I like it when my lolis have well-endowed masculine boyfriends that make them cry with pleasure.

 

[Beefeater]

I'm an otaku and I like it when my lolis have well-endowed masculine boyfriends that make them cry with pleasure.

From hugging, right?

 

[studyguy]

From hugging, right?

Holding hands actually.

I'd almost ban myself for posting something so lewd.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Wow, he/she doesn't value purity?

I value kindness and empathy, but not sexual purity. I think it's unhealthy to fetishize virginity and things like that. I think that's one of the problems with the idol industry.

Even though I like idols and think it's cute and fun. I don't respect the fact that they're not allowed to have boyfriends. And can lose their job if they do have boyfriends. And I think the expectation is controlling and unhealthy.

 

[Valhelm]

Media made any ideology in mind is a terrible idea.

 

[TUSR]

Jesus is a common moral figure that people look up to.

Madoka was Jesus-like in having a similar moral purity, and through

Spoiler

her almost omnipotence at the end of the anime.

Even though I'm not religious, I do like many things in the beatitudes.

Please watch the Rebellion movie.