I wouldn't call either Valiant Hearts or Mauz cute. Do they have cartoonish art styles? Absolutely. But they're not cute or saccharine.
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I wish that somebody would make a Slice of Life moe comedy anime about feminists.
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
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I wouldn't call either Valiant Hearts or Mauz cute. Do they have cartoonish art styles? Absolutely. But they're not cute or saccharine.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Valkyria Chronicles has a lot of moe. And it would teach history pretty well if it wasn't about fictional Europe.
Edy Nelson is very moe. Alicia has some moe things I didn't like, like needing to be protected by Gunther.
I wish it was Alicia that saved Gunther, instead.
When Edy said she had the power of 100 people, that was pretty moe to me.
Edy Nelson is very moe. Alicia has some moe things I didn't like, like needing to be protected by Gunther.
I wish it was Alicia that saved Gunther, instead.
When Edy said she had the power of 100 people, that was pretty moe to me.
Yeah, it kind of went downhill.
Though I still respect fujoshi and otaku cultures and I think they can have good things.
Being an otaku or fujoshi doesn't mean you can't learn or respect feminism.
What you enjoy conflicts with your supposed ideals and this entire thread/online roleplay is just an effort to relieve your cognitive dissonance
I wouldn't call either Valiant Hearts or Mauz cute. Do they have cartoonish art styles? Absolutely. But they're not cute or saccharine.
I think Valiant Heart's early cuteness is one of the things that hurts it's tone and the prime reason why people think it's all over the place. All of my examples are outwardly cute, the visuals serve to ease people into the story they're telling. And once they have you, they wallop you.
A more relevant and interesting example would be Chuu2. That show is extremely moe, but it turns into a pretty interesting story about institutionalized mental child abuse.
Valkyria Chronicles has a lot of moe. And it would teach history pretty well if it wasn't about fictional Europe.
Edy Nelson is very moe. Alicia has some moe things I didn't like, like needing to be protected by Gunther.
I wish it was Alicia that saved Gunther, instead.
When Edy said she had the power of 100 people, that was pretty moe to me.
Wasn't Edy a spoof on idol girls though?
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't think it does.What you enjoy conflicts with your supposed ideals and this entire thread/online roleplay is just cognitive dissonance
And I'm not roleplaying. I'm just expressing myself. I enjoy being cute and feminine.
This is who I am.
Valkyria Chronicles has a lot of moe. And it would teach history pretty well if it wasn't about fictional Europe.
Edy Nelson is very moe. Alicia has some moe things I didn't like, like needing to be protected by Gunther.
I wish it was Alicia that saved Gunther, instead.
When Edy said she had the power of 100 people, that was pretty moe to me.
I think someone is right, anime has kinda skewed your brain.
You're wanting to teach people about serious and very horrific events but sugar coat it. That doesn't teach them about it, that gives them some loose understanding where they can easily misinterpret it.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Sometimes I wonder why that's necessary though...
What happened to just learning about history as-is, instead of needing it filtered through something juvenile. Like the people saying Kantai is for "ship otaku", why don't they instead read books, watch documents, or play realistic simulators about these battleships they apparently love so much?
What happened to just learning about history as-is, instead of needing it filtered through something juvenile. Like the people saying Kantai is for "ship otaku", why don't they instead read books, watch documents, or play realistic simulators about these battleships they apparently love so much?
Even if an anime taught things well with Moe characters, I would bet serious money that the people would watch it for the Moe, and wouldn't give a shit about what's being taught. If this Moe feminist anime existed, nobody would learn jack about feminism.
Or worse, it would paint actual feminists are "just being tsundere/yandere girls who secretly really want it."
HolyBaikal
Banned
You mean I can't enjoy K-On! and be a feminist? Why not?What you enjoy conflicts with your supposed ideals
HolyBaikal
Banned
Do you think that something like Valkyria Chronicles is too sugar coated to be able to teach people about history?You're wanting to teach people about serious and very horrific events but sugar coat it. That doesn't teach them about it, that gives them some loose understanding where they can easily misinterpret it.
God Dayumm
Banned
What we need is a dark souls game starring feminists.
Femme Souls.
Anything but moe. We need less moe in the world
Femme Souls.
Anything but moe. We need less moe in the world
Do you think that something like Valkyria Chronicles is too sugar coated to be able to teach people about history?
The events depicted in Valkyria Chronicles didn't actually take place....
But it would be like making porn with a feminist narrative. No one cares about the narrative when they're watching porn.To me, moeness means being endearing and adorable. And adorable means being likeable. Moe characters are endearing and likeable to otaku.
You're most wrong about this. For a lot of people (maybe most people), moe comes off as not genuine and unpleasant.Being moe characters would make many people more invested in them and more likely to be sympathetic to feminist ideals. It would make the idea of feminism more approachable and less alien and scary.
Do you think that something like Valkyria Chronicles is too sugar coated to be able to teach people about history?
I think you only need to watch the anime to see why it would be poor at teaching history. That and the Valkyria Chronicles 2 anime.
I mean, real talk, the fact that most anime and manga live and die based off their respective popularity polls means that the grand majority of them simply cannot have any sort of actual meaningful message. That's unfortunate, but here we are, in a world where Naruto dominated the airwaves for almost 15 years.
HolyBaikal
Banned
But what if it was a closer retelling of World War II instead of fictional?The events depicted in Valkyria Chronicles didn't actually take place....
Don't you think you could tell World War II that way?
Do you think that something like Valkyria Chronicles is too sugar coated to be able to teach people about history?
75 million people died in world war II and features some of the worst atrocities in history, and you think a game with a big tittied girl shooting lasers out a lance would be a good teaching tool to represent it?
But what if it was a closer retelling of World War II instead of fictional?
Don't you think you could tell World War II that way?
VC's tone would not be appropriate for a retelling of WW2. It would need to be a much darker game.
HolyBaikal
Banned
It doesn't have to be exactly like Valkyria Chronicles. ._.
I think Valiant Heart's early cuteness is one of the things that hurts it's tone and the prime reason why people think it's all over the place. All of my examples are outwardly cute, the visuals serve to ease people into the story they're telling.
There's a difference between being merely outwardly innocuous and Hetalia which is just drivel.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
I refuse to believe Baikal is real.
It doesn't have to be exactly like Valkyria Chronicles. ._.
It would have to be completely different in tone and style. It could still be cel-shaded and turn-based strategy but that's about all that would remain. It would basically have to be a completely different game.
It doesn't have to be exactly like Valkyria Chronicles. ._.
So does it feature a ton of anime girls being blown up and shot to bits as they step onto a beach? Or emaciated pink haired girls eating rats and being tortured?
HolyBaikal
Banned
Valkyria Chronicles is a kind of moe retelling of World War II. It isn't as dark and it doesn't teach World War II history very well. But it's still a good game and a lot of people respect it.
I don't see why moe stories about feminists would be bad, either.
I don't see why moe stories about feminists would be bad, either.
freenudemacusers
Member
well yeah it's hard to see moe in general as a sincere glance at childhood naivete, innocence, vunerability, etc when everything i see here (avatars, discussion, threads) and elsewhere on the internet is 99% little girls. that a lone raises a red flag for me, nevermind the op's topic post suggesting these characters explore sexualityYou're most wrong about this. For a lot of people (maybe most people), moe comes off as not genuine and unpleasant.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I refuse to believe Baikal is real.
The level of commitment for them to be trolling pushes that beyond plausibility for me. I think they're genuine. There are lots of people there who most of us would consider "odd"
*shrug*
That Kantai Collection analogy is a very good one. That franchise isn't getting people into the history of nautical machinery, people are interested in it because the waifu-ication of each ship caters to a specific sexualized archetype. The background of the show matters very little when 90% of the people watching it are doing so because the girl who wears the thong and the striped kneehigh stockings is being cute.
Exactly. And the entire story background (which has the fleet girls fighting aliens) exists in order to completely separate the characters from their historical basis. Girls und Panzer, Upotte, and Strike Witches are the same way.
To me, moeness means being endearing and adorable. And adorable means being likeable. Moe characters are endearing and likeable to otaku.
Some things that are found endearing can be empowering to women. Like Kuudere, or being "cool". That's not degrading to women if viewers find cool women moe. But finding sexual purity and needing to be protected, as a moe trait, is degrading to women. It's a form of control.
And merchandising images of women isn't necessarily degrading. The Frozen characters Elsa and Anna are kind of like moe characters. There is merchandise of them everywhere. But they are also empowering characters that young girls can relate to.
I think that one of the problems of feminists is that they're not treated as endearing characters that viewers are supposed to like in the media. Being moe characters would make many people more invested in them and more likely to be sympathetic to feminist ideals. It would make the idea of feminism more approachable and less alien and scary.
Moe like Hetalia has helped people understand history. Maybe moe could also help people understand and be interested in feminism.
Maybe people would like feminists more, if they were treated as lighthearted, loveable, endearing, relatable characters, in a lighthearted show?
The suffix "dere" refers to love. A kuudere character is cool on the outside, but adoring and devoted on the inside. For example, Kagari from Witchcraft Works is strong, athletic, intelligent, powerful... and completely devoted to the main character even before she really knows him. Does that make her strong, and someone to admire?
What's attractive about moe and 2D is not just that it's cute: it's that it's pure and nonthreatening. A fictional character cannot hurt you or contradict you, or reject you and fall in love with someone else. It's an idea in your head that you can use how you want, a memetic set of features rather than an independent being. Even characters that have sharp edges can have those things blunted by their audience. Consider the example of Evangelion, whose female leads are all flawed, who exist to demonstrate to the protagonist the need to be hurt to find deeper love and fulfillment... and who have those flaws hidden or ignored in fan material, spinoff works, and merchandise, so they can be devoted and perfect for their buyers.
Feminism's problem (and socialism, and communism) isn't that it lacks a cute mascot. It challenges people. It has to challenge people, and disturb them, and possibly hurt them, because it disrupts the present order. It tells people things about the world as it currently is that they may not want to hear. If those things are told to them by a cute little girl, the response won't be to open their minds and listen; they'll respond by ignoring her words and holding onto her cuteness. And how can the moe mascot stop them from doing that if she's a 2D creation? How can she tell them they're wrong?
If fans of Frozen are capable of shipping Elsa and Anna together as an incestuous lesbian couple, then any fans of this hypothetical feminist moe series will be more than capable of writing off a few challenging ideas in order to make their 2D idols perfect for them.
HolyBaikal
Banned
You know, maybe a lot of things in World War II are too terrible to be retold for most people. I don't watch realistic movies about World War II because it's so depressing. I would rather read about it in history books.
All things told about history or feminism don't have to be horrifying.
All things told about history or feminism don't have to be horrifying.
I refuse to believe Baikal is real.
Each time i read some of her posts i feel like to want to talk with an adult. I think i'm being bullied ....
You know, maybe a lot of things in World War II are too terrible to be retold for most people. I don't watch realistic movies about World War II because it's so depressing. I would rather read about it in history books.
All things told about history or feminism don't have to be horrifying.
Those who don't learn from history etc etc
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't care about being normal. To me normal isn't necessarily a good thing. Though I do feel sad when people call me things like that, because it makes me feel alone. And nobody likes to feel alone.There are lots of people there who most of us would consider "odd"
If I'm wrong then I guess I'm wrong. Everyone is wrong about some things. But I always try my best to learn and grow. Though it hurts when people try to ridicule me.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
I want a moe show about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Learn history while watching cute things!
There's a difference between being merely outwardly innocuous and Hetalia which is just drivel.
Of course. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
HolyBaikal
Banned
They didn't show gruesome, horrible things most of the time in history books when I was in school.Those who don't learn from history etc etc
Though they did talk about it in a way that wouldn't disturb people.
As a marxist and a feminist who also happens to be a anime fan.
I think your idea sounds hilariously awesome, and kind of reminds me of this: http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/09/18-1/european-philosophers-depicted-as-anime-girls
I think your idea sounds hilariously awesome, and kind of reminds me of this: http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/09/18-1/european-philosophers-depicted-as-anime-girls
Exactly. And the entire story background (which has the fleet girls fighting aliens) exists in order to completely separate the characters from their historical basis. Girls und Panzer, Upotte, and Strike Witches are the same way.
I probably would have watched Strike Witches if the girls wore pants.
I want a moe show about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Learn history while watching cute things!
Real talk, I think there's a manga of that.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Oh my goodness, I'm not alone!As a marxist and a feminist who also happens to be a anime fan.
I think your idea sounds hilariously awesome, and kind of reminds me of this: http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/09/18-1/european-philosophers-depicted-as-anime-girls
Thank you! That makes me feel a little better.
Those philosophers are super neat, too. I wish all of the pictures were showing for me.
I would love to see what moe Spinoza looked like. He was very interesting.
I don't see why moe stories about feminists would be bad, either.
It wouldn't have to be bad. It just would probably be actively detrimental to the cause of promoting the ideas of the feminists depicted within it.
freenudemacusers
Member
you know, it's weird when you google image search a show, and the first sub head is 'fanservice' complete with a series of cameltoe upskirt pics of characters that appear to be 14 years old or so.I probably would have watched Strike Witches if the girls wore pants.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Couldn't it be possible to do it positively?It wouldn't have to be bad. It just would probably be actively detrimental to the cause of promoting the ideas of the feminists depicted within it.
You know, maybe a lot of things in World War II are too terrible to be retold for most people. I don't watch realistic movies about World War II because it's so depressing. I would rather read about it in history books.
All things told about history or feminism don't have to be horrifying.
I think what bothers me is that you attempt to insulate yourself in a little bubble free from "bad things." You're only living half a life and you're missing out on an entire spectrum of life experiences that aren't only valuable to human beings but absolutely critically necessary. You think it's perfectly OK to shield yourself from hurtful or depressing experiences but it isn't OK. It's good to be depressed sometimes. It's good to cry sometimes. It's good to hurt sometimes. But you're so scared of feeling anything negative for even a nanosecond that you've shut yourself away from what it means to be human. What it means to be alive. You've put yourself into a state where all you can do is stagnate and never grow or learn.
Ironically, it's incredibly depressing to watch.
Couldn't it be possible to do it positively?
It sounds more and more that you want feminists to be accepting of what you enjoy and who you are instead
And that's a mistake. A lot of disturbing things happened in World War 2 and not knowing about the disturbing nature of these things is tantamount to not learning from history and therefore being doomed to repeat it.They didn't show gruesome, horrible things most of the time in history books when I was in school.
Though they did talk about it in a way that wouldn't disturb people.
ActuallyHulk
Banned
Yeah this will happen around the same time as Haruhi S3 and FMP S4.
DAMN you KyoAni
DAMN you KyoAni
Couldn't it be possible to do it positively?
Like I said previously you're trying to stick feminist ideals into archetypes which seems counter intuitive to what you're trying to teach. Even if it worked on paper, in the end the viewers would just boil it down to "Oh so and so is so cute, here lemme look up some rule 34 of her"
hydrophilic attack
Member
What we need is a dark souls game starring feminists.
Femme Souls.
Anything but moe. We need less moe in the world
I would definitely buy that.
you know, it's weird when you google image search a show, and the first sub head is 'fanservice' complete with a series of cameltoe upskirt pics of characters that appear to be 14 years old or so.
It's not that weird.
Or rather, it's not that uncommon.
Couldn't it be possible to do it positively?
...probably not. Not while it's trying to be a moe-moe show.
They didn't show gruesome, horrible things most of the time in history books when I was in school.
Though they did talk about it in a way that wouldn't disturb people.
And we all learned so much from school history books...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What's attractive about moe and 2D is not just that it's cute: it's that it's pure and nonthreatening. A fictional character cannot hurt you or contradict you, or reject you and fall in love with someone else. It's an idea in your head that you can use how you want, a memetic set of features rather than an independent being. Even characters that have sharp edges can have those things blunted by their audience. Consider the example of Evangelion, whose female leads are all flawed, who exist to demonstrate to the protagonist the need to be hurt to find deeper love and fulfillment... and who have those flaws hidden or ignored in fan material, spinoff works, and merchandise, so they can be devoted and perfect for their buyers.
This is a great followup to a point I was trying to make in the previous "moe" thread which is that when we're discussing media like this we cannot limit ourselves to just the textual content of the media itself. The reactions of the audience (and how those reactions inform further media creation) are just as important
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