Betta Lines
Member
I went from a 670 to a 980, but when I tried it again with my 980 there was still some occasional judder. It was his 1.7 update that did the trick. Have you tried that?
Oculus Rift DK2 Thread
- Thread starter PGamer
- Start date
Fried Food
Banned
I can't wait to play GTAV on this. Im going to be crying.
NoPiece
Member
Ya, I did try the 1.7 update. Sounds like it is time to upgrade the video card.
Betta Lines
Member
I found the 670 to do ok in the majority of demos, but I was regularly having to muck about with settings to get stuff to hit 75fps - SightLine being one of the worst for performance. I wouldn't upgrade just for that, but something with more juice has made launching demos a lot less painful in general
So, FINALLY valve hit us back up with more than "we're heads down at the moment." We were introduced to the business director for their VR team and she's hammering out the logistics of our visit up there. Really, really excited, we were worried that the last time they spoke to us, it was a "don't call us, we'll call you" situation... except they actually called back!
Sorry that I'm ignorant, but what company do you work for? I assume there are more than one of you because you say "our visit", but your profile does not seem to mention which company.
"our visit" refers to the 3 man team I'm a part of behind Half Life 2 VR.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
They're secretly scouting you as candidates for Half Life 3 VR.
The dream still isn't dead
Peterthumpa
Member
So, CES and this thread got me hyped, together with my new rig that I just built. Almost pulling the trigger on the Rift, just a few questions to make sure it's worth it:
1) I know that the field of view is around 100 for the DK2. Is that a big problem, i.e.: breaks the immersion as your peripheral vision is technically reduced?
2) For someone used to playing games @ 1080p with 4x+AA, is the screen door effect forgettable after a few minutes? Or is it so low res that it's a constant problem? I know that TMMV, but I'm just trying to collect as much info as possible;
3) Is the 3D effect actually better than what is achieved in the best IMAX or similars 3D theaters around? Worse? Or is it really just like real life?
And no, unfortunately I'm unable to test a DK2 before buying it, so laying on the opinions here to decide too.
1) I know that the field of view is around 100 for the DK2. Is that a big problem, i.e.: breaks the immersion as your peripheral vision is technically reduced?
2) For someone used to playing games @ 1080p with 4x+AA, is the screen door effect forgettable after a few minutes? Or is it so low res that it's a constant problem? I know that TMMV, but I'm just trying to collect as much info as possible;
3) Is the 3D effect actually better than what is achieved in the best IMAX or similars 3D theaters around? Worse? Or is it really just like real life?
And no, unfortunately I'm unable to test a DK2 before buying it, so laying on the opinions here to decide too.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
1 and 2 are noticable, but I wouldn't consider them problems aside from small and infrequent issues such as the tiny text in Elite being hard to read without leaning in. In a good enough immersive game you'll stop noticing.
The 3D isn't really like typical cinema 3D, it's closer to real life. Things don't just pop in your face, they sit naturally as you'd expect them to if they were in front of you, giving a completely accurate impression of scale and depth. It's really hard to imagine or describe until you try it really.
Mechanical Snowman
Member
The horizontal FOV isn't big enough for you to easily forget that you're wearing a piece of hardware, there will be black bars on your peripheral that are pretty obvious. The distance between the lenses and your eye is adjustable, so the closer it is, the higher the FOV, but you can only have it at its closest if you don't need to wear glasses in the Rift, and have a relatively unprotruding nasal bridge
The screen door effect is the biggest enemy of 'presence', for me it's detrimental to true immersion in any and every demo I've tried. It is more and less noticeable depending on your virtual environment - darker areas have more of a subtle screen door effect where the illumination of the sub pixels isn't bright enough compared to where there is pixel void, to cause an obvious effect. With brighter objects and particularly bright objects closer to one of the three RGB values, the space between sub pixels is very noticeable.
3D effect is pretty much 1:1 real life, but it has a 'sweet spot' which is generally things relatively close to you (i.e, in the same room). This is partly because of our tendency to be more susceptible to stereoscopic depth cues that are closer to us in real life, but mainly due to the lack of resolution of the screen that means there literally aren't enough pixels to render far away things with the correct amount of difference in each eye. (I hope someone will correct me if I've provided wrong info on any of the above).
The amount any of these drawbacks becomes detrimental someone's experience varies hugely, for me it's quite a lot, for others it's barely at all, you won't know your tolerance until you get in there.
VindicatorZ
Member
I wish someone would ask Nate or Palmer about the FOV in these CES interviews. There's never a straight answer, and I'm worried we'll be stuck with around 100 degree field of view for CV1. If they could somehow squeeze another 10-20 degrees out of it, it would be amazing and make a huge difference. And a 4K screen would probably effectively give you the same resolution as Crescent Bay but with a higher field of view. In the future when there is 200+ degree field of view, it will be truly incredible. But 120 would be great for right now.
Betta Lines
Member
I won't repeat the first two answers (as I agree with them), only to add that the resolution is a problem for some, and it depends on what you need from the device. For competitive sim racing, which is my main use case, it is borderline acceptable. Most of the time, the increased awareness is enough to overcome the lack of fidelity, but there are specific cases (determined by a certain car and a certain location on a certain track) where it is compromising my ability to select an ideal line through a chicane, or to pick a braking point accurately. I have no doubt this translates to other areas of competitive gaming where points are won and lost between the tightest of margins.
You should only purchase a DK2 if you are prepared to give it the time it deserves (in terms of setting it up correctly for your system and for your eyesight, as well as testing it for an extended period to get your 'vr legs'), and are able to see past the shortcomings of the technology at this stage. You should be prepared to deal with a device that is uncomfortable to use for long periods, using a lot of unfinished, unpolished software and be able to troubleshoot the common hardware and software problems. You should also be prepared to replace it with a CV1 in (hopefully) less than a year. I would say that unless you have a specific game/sim that you want to spend a lot of time with right now, you're better off waiting. If you've resisted the urge to buy a DK2 until now, you can probably keep that going.
Having said that, if you have the spare cash, and you have no other means of trying one, you can probably buy it, and sell it on and get all your money back.
Peterthumpa
Member
Thanks everyone. Very informative. About the bolded text, does that mean that far away depth perception is limited? I keep watching these YouTube videos with people falling off the chair when trying the rollercoaster demo. Isn't that a result of depth perception? Or in this specific case, height perception?
Chance Hale
Member
Hope they get the gsync drivers sorted out soon. Saw people talking about the issue as early as Dec 20th so it's been known for a while. Having to downgrade my drivers and runtime sucks, can't even use it with Elite :/
Extend just displays my desktop 90% of the time. First kit was so much smoother driver wise.
Extend just displays my desktop 90% of the time. First kit was so much smoother driver wise.
There is every reason to believe that the Crescent Bay's technological design is what CV1 will be. So FoV will remain similar to DK2(people who try it say its a bit better, but not much).
Depth perception far away is limited in the same way our real-life depth perception is limited looking at things far away. The 'limitation' people are speaking of here is mainly because of the resolution.
Peterthumpa
Member
Which means that, for example, looking down from a tall building or something, should give you that sensation of height that "normal" 3D usually isn't able to deliver?
I suspect that there will be a DK3 before they announce the consumer version release date or am I wrong in this assumption?
I've even started a list of games that I won't be playing without a rift now due to the first person experience becoming so incredibly different. Alien Isolation, Amnesia, Outlast among others comes to mind.
There's been demos of DK2 here at work due to architects/developers experimenting with potential use cases. Heard some pretty incredible first impressions. I can even see myself drawing with it if Adobe/Autodesk provides native support of OR in the near future.
I've even started a list of games that I won't be playing without a rift now due to the first person experience becoming so incredibly different. Alien Isolation, Amnesia, Outlast among others comes to mind.
There's been demos of DK2 here at work due to architects/developers experimenting with potential use cases. Heard some pretty incredible first impressions. I can even see myself drawing with it if Adobe/Autodesk provides native support of OR in the near future.
Yup.
Betta Lines
Member
It is a result of the overall effect of every aspect of the technology that causes people to freak out on a rollercoaster. It can't be pointed to one thing. Depth perception itself is achieved through many aspects of the technology. It partly relates to scale, stereoscopy, motion parallax, and many other cues. Our brains are very good at filling in blanks. If you remove or reduce one of these cues, we subconsciously imagine it to be there. If you close one eye in the Rift, there is still a good sense of depth, as everything else is still working well and your brain is compensating.
But specifically related to resolution, there is an area in the middle-distance that doesn't have as defined a depth as it should, as there is not enough fidelity to resolve the stereo separation. The separation of objects in both views reduces as they get further away, so it requires higher and higher resolution to see the difference. Once stuff reaches the far distance, it is impossible to gauge any kind of depth from stereo separation as there is barely any, and you are then relying on other visual cues (e.g. distance fog and colour grading). So if we're talking specifically about the effectiveness of the stereo 3D, stuff looks fine close up and very 3D, and stuff in the far distance looks fine too (as you also can't perceive stereo depth in reality at this distance). It is somewhere in the middle-distance that the sense of depth is worse-affected by the low resolution (and unfortunately, that is often the bit you're staring at the most, e.g. looking ahead down the road as you drive).
At CES this week they have been re-stating that there are no plans to create a DK3.
Peterthumpa
Member
Thanks. The idea is to use it more as an "entertainment device" than anything else, just to shown off the tech to friends and family and maybe play some games like Elite, Race sims or that use the presence just as a cool mimick, like BlazeRush.
Betta Lines
Member
It might be able to run some of the most basic demos at 75fps, but it's not really powerful enough I'm afraid.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Surely the consumer unit is just around the corner then. I don't understand why they didn't make a announcement at CES about it. At least give a ball park time frame.
Getting the hardware finalized is probably not what's holding back any release announcements.
Big Takeover
Member
What Sean said (software), as well as CES is for announcing products that wouldn't necessarily get their own press event. When it comes time to unveil it, they're going to have lots to talk about and show. Even though it won't be a big money maker, Facebook will splash the cash for putting it on stage by itself. They can do that anytime.
Chance Hale
Member
Titans of Space was pretty unbelievable. There was more than a few times where I just saw back in complete awe. Can't wait to show this to friends and family.
Also got so into looking around my ship and craning my head to see stars that I smacked my head on my desk. Certainly a plus for the immersion!
Also got so into looking around my ship and craning my head to see stars that I smacked my head on my desk. Certainly a plus for the immersion!
pooptacular
Member
as anyone that has used the dk1 or dk2 knows software is what's holding back the cv1 release. Having to fuck about with extended vs direct and then different sdk versions and drivers, this all needs to be way more cohesive for the official release.
anyways I was perusing the Oculus recommended software on Steam and noticed Trackmania 2 received support a few months ago, GOD DAMN! what an amazing game! I thought I would get sick fast playing this like I would quake 2 vr but nope, I played for a few hours straight with no issues. Whenever you get hang time and are in the air, its hard to describe, such an amazing feeling.
Performance is great as well, rock solid 75fps with a 2600k@4ghz and 780ti.
anyways I was perusing the Oculus recommended software on Steam and noticed Trackmania 2 received support a few months ago, GOD DAMN! what an amazing game! I thought I would get sick fast playing this like I would quake 2 vr but nope, I played for a few hours straight with no issues. Whenever you get hang time and are in the air, its hard to describe, such an amazing feeling.
Performance is great as well, rock solid 75fps with a 2600k@4ghz and 780ti.
They might be waiting for the 4K display that might be announced @IFA in september
They've already confirmed no 4k in cv1.
Cool, thanks for the info.
Mechanical Snowman
Member
For now yep, until we get a higher res screen. For example if I look out of my window now, I can see a row of houses across the street and behind them, a field extending to the horizon. It looks very '3D' even though it's far away; I can tell that I'm getting stereoscopic depth cues from them because if I close one eye, it just looks like a flat plane, like it could be a theater backdrop.
This is what happens in the Rift, you are sensitive to stereoscopic changes in real life that are much smaller than a pixel in the Rift's display, so after a certain distance things might begin to look like they are just textures painted onto a skydome. That's why games with vast landscapes / huge mountains / details that extend to the horizon can't really be experienced at their full potential at the moment.
Regarding the rollercoaster thing, when you lose stereoscopy for far away objects, it's as if they are an infinite distance away. If both of your eyes are receiving the same image / pixels for a particular object, it looks like it's at infinity - like stars in real life. So in rollercoaster demos, you've got that sweet spot of all the near 3D stuff like the track and your car looking 3D, but then the ground can still look very far away, and you will still shit yourself. Honestly I've probably made this a bigger deal than it will seem once you try out the Rift - you still have other depth cues at play such as parallax which helps your brain out with deciding how far away objects are, more so than stereoscopy does with distant objects.
It's also a problem that's only really noticeable in the minority of games and demos. For example, the two full games that everyone seems to recommend - Alien Isolation and Elite Dangerous - one of them is set in an interior environment where nothing gets far enough away to lose stereoscopy, the other is set in space where your cockpit will look beautifully 3D because it's close to you, and 99% of the stuff you'll see out of your space window wouldn't actually have stereoscopy in real life, so it would still look correct
Betta Lines
Member
It's that time again... Tested's latest chat with Oculus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-IdUI0qs7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-IdUI0qs7w
Mechanical Snowman
Member
Thanks!
Here's a great interview with Nate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACA1UL63W9I
He says some things that aren't really surprising, but interesting that he's allowed to say them. The CB demos are running on GTX980s and are 90hz, CV1 will be at least 90hz but possibly higher.
Here's a great interview with Nate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACA1UL63W9I
He says some things that aren't really surprising, but interesting that he's allowed to say them. The CB demos are running on GTX980s and are 90hz, CV1 will be at least 90hz but possibly higher.
90hz. Oh god yes. I was worried it was going to be 60hz as I've gotten so used to 120 now and don't feel like I can go back.
Peterthumpa
Member
Interesting read. So, based on your opinion, is it safe to say that sim racing games are the worst offenders? I mean, you have a pretty good cockpit, but your height is low and the the far away objects (or the track itself) are probably negatively affected. Right?
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Interesting, Nate seems to imply there'll be an input dev kit before CV1. Announced at GDC?
They say it's around 1 to 2 weeks from placing the order to shipping, but could be less. According to their community manager on the Oculus forum, they have plenty of stock so no need to worry about that.
I placed my order on the 5th and am still waiting for it to ship as well.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
You know. I completely forgot Facebook bough them. So yeah. When Facebook is ready then there's going to be a massive advertising campaign/promotion.
Well, they always said 90 Hz was the goal. And the DK2 already runs at 75 Hz so no need to fear. Just fear the hardware requirements. Stuttering really makes you sick in VR!
Oh and by the way if someone has a DK2 and has not tried this:
https://share.oculus.com/app/vox-machinae
GO! Do it! It is awesome. A bit on the short side but together with Windlands the best real game demos I tried so far.
Ah, nice, I hadn't thought about the mech genre in a while.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLIURpSHLU
Stompy mechs. Good.
Controlling your mech arms with STEM would be pretty crazy.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLIURpSHLU
Stompy mechs. Good.
Controlling your mech arms with STEM would be pretty crazy.
Yep, and it controls reaally good. Aiming is done by sight which can be a bit strange but other than that an excellent mech feeling. And the cockpit helps keeping the motion sickness low. Resolution for the control interfaaces is good too. As always with the DK2 the far sight is lacking but that for sure will improve.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I very much enjoyed that.
So the consumer version is close and there's going to be a input SDK. Interesting.
Big Takeover
Member
Input dev kit; shut up and take my money.
I don't know what we'd do without Norm. The guy gets all the best infoz.
I don't know what we'd do without Norm. The guy gets all the best infoz.
Already hoping that the consumer version will have a new model each year. Really hope we are not going to be stuck at 1400p for more than a year. :'(
Mechanical Snowman
Member
Speaking just in theory I'd say yeah, that should be when you start to notice a lack of depth, but I actually haven't tried any racing games. In such a scenario though, I think it's safe to say that other cues would take over and you'd still get a pretty convincing 3D experience: you are constantly moving (and not just your car, your head as well), so parallax should become the dominant method of telling how far away things that are outside of your cockpit are, you know how big a car is and so all of your opponents around you and how small they appear to be in the distance will help because of foreshortening, etc. All this stuff seems to combine into one big 3D, so what I assume would happen if you're in an immersive, racing environment, would be that your brain doesn't even think about one possibly inadequate depth cue as an issue, when it can combine them all for maximum profit. Then when you pause the game and enter some kind of 'photography mode' for example and look at the static scene, you might be less forgiving of stereoscopy being lost at a closer distance than it happens in real life. This is all just conjecture by the way, like I said I haven't tried a racing game :>
The times where I've noticed this problem specifically are when you would naturally rely more on stereoscopy to gauge depth, when you are in a fairly static scene and aren't moving very much - such as in the Tuscany demo, where there are separate islands in the distance that look very flat, and in Space Engine, where planets and moons can have procedurally generated mountains that lose their depth past a certain distance.
As a slight side note, one thing I've noticed in the Rift is that the effect of depth from parallax is infinitely better with head tracking than on a monitor with a mouse or controller. You can still close one eye in demos and have a very good idea of depth and distance, because little (even unconscious) head movements give your brain information about what is closer to you, how big things are. You're at this point basically simulating how you would usually perceive depth in any 2D game like in the old days
p) but, because you're still using your head to look around, the experience of being there can still feel quite authentic.Betta Lines
Member
Sim racing is one of, if not the best application for the current state of VR technology, i.e. a seated experience with positional tracking captured by a camera, with no ideal input solution available for more popular genres. Sim racing allows you to sit in the correct position to line up with your virtual body, the restrictive nature of a car interior or racing cockpit means that there are no concerns about leaning outside of the tracking volume, and you can rest your hands and feet on a steering wheel and pedals that can line up perfectly with what you see in the virtual space, meaning that input and haptic feedback is solved already. And with a cockpit around you, and a familiar, relatable, realistic environment outside of that, the nausea levels are typically at their lowest out of any genre that involves movement at speed.
As I (and Mechanical Snowman) suggested, it is the depth perception of the middle-distance that will benefit most from higher resolutions, and this happens to be around the point of the track ahead of your car that you focus on as you drive. For competitive racing, it is just about usable already, but certain corners and braking zones are definitely less than ideal in terms of clarity. For example, I am currently about 0.05 to 0.4 seconds per lap slower than my pace using a monitor, depending on the length of the track. It is at a tipping point where some people think it is already good enough and other think it needs one more step up. I am pretty confident that at Crescent Bay spec, it will be good enough for sim racing at even the highest level. Not perfect by a long shot, but good enough to the point where it has eliminated the slight feeling that I currently have that it is compromising my accuracy and consistency.
This middle-distance clarity problem is not unique to sim racing. Sure, you're slightly lower to the ground in most vehicles than a standing position, but any genre that involves moving forwards on or near the ground will make your eyes settle at this distance a lot of the time. So I wouldn't call it the 'worst offender' - it is perhaps only highlighted more because everything else about the genre is so good already.
Yeah, pretty much.
"Oculus will never reach mass market awareness"
"So what happens when the consumer version is ready and Facebook decides everyone will see Oculus ads for a few days?"