I would like to see more moe characters in anme who are strong and "mature".

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The Technomancer said:
Having not read the thread except for the OP I think it gets back to the exact same heart of the other question: what is moe? Without a clean definition this is kind of hard to talk about, but by the same token having a clean definition might actually be impossible. It appears to be a series of affectations that some people find appealing, but are those affectations able to be integrated with traits and themes that are seemingly at odds with them?

To pull on one thing specifically: if the characters are mature and able to take care of themselves, what's moe about them? Is it literally just the aesthetics at that point? How do the childish aesthetics and affectations work within the context of that maturity? And even if you could do something subversive and artistic with that, would it appeal to the kind of people who find those affectations appealing now?

I don't think they're irreconcilable by any means. But I wonder what it would serve and how much you could do with it.
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what if I consider being strong and independent as being moe traits? What if it's just the character's voice, or outfit, not a "childish aesthetic or affectation"? Kaiji is pretty darn moe, and he isn't portrayed at all as childish or infantalized. Moe is more then just blobby character designs and annoying squeaky voices and kyaaaa~ Senpai~ moe moe kyun~~~
 
So I googled moe and anime and it's all girls making stupid expressions. I still don't know what moe is but if this is any indication of it

moe.jpg
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It's fucking stupid.
 
Envelope said:
what if I consider being strong and independent as being moe traits? What if it's just the character's voice, or outfit, not a "childish aesthetic or affectation"? Kaiji is pretty darn moe, and he isn't portrayed at all as childish or infantalized. Moe is more then just blobby character designs and annoying squeaky voices and kyaaaa~ Senpai~ moe moe kyun~~~
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I mean, is it? That isn't the impression I've gotten from most of the media I've seen or the culture around it, but then that gets back to my point about lacking a good functional definition.
 
Envelope said:
what if I consider being strong and independent as being moe traits? What if it's just the character's voice, or outfit, not a "childish aesthetic or affectation"? Kaiji is pretty darn moe, and he isn't portrayed at all as childish or infantalized. Moe is more then just blobby character designs and annoying squeaky voices and kyaaaa~ Senpai~ moe moe kyun~~~
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But then you're twisting the definition to suit your needs.
 
The Technomancer said:
Having not read the thread except for the OP I think it gets back to the exact same heart of the other question: what is moe?
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It's a really really broad word.

But I think culturally, it's become a word for a certain type of femininity. The history of the word seems to come a lot from the "bishoujo" anime and visual novel genres. As well as magical girl shows and things like that. It does have a male gaze, but it isn't always a male gaze.

Moe characters can be subjects just as much as objects. Tomoko Kuroki from It's Not My Fault I'm not Popular is a moe character. And I think you could probably argue there's a lot of male gaze in the show. But she's also a subject and most of the anime is about her personality and her inner thoughts, not her as an object as much as a subject.

She's a moe character, but she's more of a subject than an object. And we often see things through her gaze.

And while a lot of people find "protecting a girl" to be moe, and I think that's a problem. I don't think that's all moe is about. There are plenty of characters who aren't meant to feel that way in anime. There are plenty of anime that aren't moe that have that idea, too. A lot of shounen anime have male characters who say things like "I'll protect you". I've heard people tell me it's a bad gender role in Japan, and not just something that happens in anime. And that protecting and caretaking for a woman is seen as a "masculine" thing in Japan.

So maybe it's more of a bad gender role in Japan than just a moe thing?

Yangire characters are seen as moe. But I don't think they're characterized to make you feel like you want to protect them. Though there were unfortunate times where Gasai Yuno was a damsel in distress. I wish that Mirai Nikki didn't have that.

I think that moe has become a lot of things and connected to a lot of things. But you can still understand it. Popular personality traits and physical traits in the otaku and anime fandom are moe. Some of them are healthy, and some of them promote unfortunate traditional gender roles and female submissiveness.

I don't think there's anything degrading about a woman being yangire, especially if she has more to her character than that. And a lot of moe anime are silly comedy anime where silly archetypes are okay to begin with.
 
Envelope said:
what if I consider being strong and independent as being moe traits? What if it's just the character's voice, or outfit, not a "childish aesthetic or affectation"? Kaiji is pretty darn moe, and he isn't portrayed at all as childish or infantalized. Moe is more then just blobby character designs and annoying squeaky voices and kyaaaa~ Senpai~ moe moe kyun~~~
Click to expand...

If Kaiji is what turns up when you Google image search "Kaiji", I am 100% sure that the vast majority of people do not consider that moe.
 
The Technomancer said:
I mean, is it? That isn't the impression I've gotten from most of the media I've seen or the culture around it, but then that gets back to my point about lacking a good functional definition.
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Yeah my personal definition of moe doesn't need to align at all with the mass produced lowest common denominator tier of garbage that everyone associates with the term - why should I limit my enjoyment of moe like that?
 
Moe in of itself is a niche genre, a big niche genre, but niche nonetheless. Exit that genre, take a break from catching up on anime, and you'll find what you're looking for.
 
HolyBaikal said:
When people reacted violently against things like anime or moe, it feels like to me that maybe the reason they feel that way is that they see it as being too feminine.

We do live in a society that femininity isn't as valued as masculinity...
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We do, but I dont think thats one of the main reasons people are turned off by moe.
 
I have only read the OP, but fair enough. However, it does seem to go against what I understand to be Moe. Perhaps I am wrong, but when most of the girls have to fit a designation such as cute, it becomes harder to do what you want. Cute in and of itself is a Word that carries an implication of power by giving a notion of small or silly. Little kids are cute, kittens are cute, puppies are cute, but you don't often hear people refer to the T-Rex as cute. You don't often refer to body builders as cute. In a way, cute often seems to be on the opposite side of strong.

But hey, why not get what you want.
 
Envelope said:
Yeah my personal definition of moe doesn't need to align at all with the mass produced lowest common denominator tier of garbage that everyone associates with the term - why should I limit my enjoyment of moe like that?
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But then what differentiates moe from a more generalized "cuteness"? I don't think people would say you can't have a strong, mature cute character.
I'm not trying to tie things in semantic knots, I really do believe that if people are going to be able to talk about this stuff we need to arrive at some understandings about what the words other people use even mean first
 
I have heard moe defined as "Anime for people who don't know if they want a girlfriend or a puppy."

It has seemed a fairly apt description from my limited knowledge.
 
Envelope said:
Yeah my personal definition of moe doesn't need to align at all with the mass produced lowest common denominator tier of garbage that everyone associates with the term - why should I limit my enjoyment of moe like that?
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At the point your personal definition of moe deviates from everyone else's definition of moe, then... you're not discussing the same thing we're discussing, and your definition is not useful for conversation with anyone else.
 
The Technomancer said:
Having not read the thread except for the OP I think it gets back to the exact same heart of the other question: what is moe? Without a clean definition this is kind of hard to talk about, but by the same token having a clean definition might actually be impossible. It appears to be a series of affectations that some people find appealing, but are those affectations able to be integrated with traits and themes that are seemingly at odds with them?

To pull on one thing specifically: if the characters are mature and able to take care of themselves, what's moe about them? Is it literally just the aesthetics at that point? How do the childish aesthetics and affectations work within the context of that maturity? And even if you could do something subversive and artistic with that, would it appeal to the kind of people who find those affectations appealing now?

I don't think they're irreconcilable by any means. But I wonder what it would serve and how much you could do with it.
Click to expand...

Anyone can be moeified. Moe isn't a permanent state of being as much as it is the aggregation of immediate representation archetypes that provide the "moe feel". Moe has grown to have a presence in a lot of shows much like how slice-of-life has, the shows haven't become entirely moe or entirely slice-of-life, but rather have learned to adapt their own stories in such a way that momentary sequences of moe or slice-of-life can be used to add short term interactions between characters and depth to the world of the characters.

Even Reinhard the goddamn Kaiser is moe at times.
 
Crab said:
At the point your personal definition of moe deviates from everyone else's definition of moe, then... you're not discussing the same thing we're discussing, and your definition is not useful for conversation with anyone else.
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It really depends what the word "is" is, amirite?
 
Crab said:
At the point your personal definition of moe deviates from everyone else's definition of moe, then... you're not discussing the same thing we're discussing, and your definition is not useful for conversation with anyone else.
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I doubt your definition is the same as holybaikal's, nor is it the same as technomancer's, nor is it the same as the average weeaboo's... there isn't an agreed upon definition, so understanding that people can have very different opinions on what moe means should actually be more helpful for you in formulating or updating your own opinion.
 
JoJoSono said:
Moe characters are meant to not be strong and mature. The entire point is to be jerk off fantasies for those looking for pure, cute, and weak girls who need the protection unquestionably of a male.

Any girl who is independent, strong, and can have an actual opinion is'nt moe. The entire point of moe is having female characters who are self reliant and subservient to a male. Either the viewer or the in universe male.

That's why it's so god awful all this waifu and moe bullshit. Moe fans don't want actual female characters. They want cute things who are nothing but cute and shitty.
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Not true at all. Shows like Aria the Animation and Tamayura are highly praised and primarily made up of girls, but they are strong characters who actually have development. Moe doesn't just mean being weak and submissive to guys.
 
No, I don't want a shitty moe design/character. Not mature, not hardcore.. I don't want it. Of course legions of weird people seem to be into it but whatever.
 
I feel like if you want characters that act like adults, you should watch anime with characters who are adults and not little girls.

crowphoenix said:
I have heard moe defined as "Anime for people who don't know if they want a girlfriend or a puppy."
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yo damn
 
HolyBaikal said:
When people reacted violently against things like anime or moe, it feels like to me that maybe the reason they feel that way is that they see it as being too feminine.

We do live in a society that femininity isn't as valued as masculinity...
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But the entire reason I dislike moe and all this waifu has to do with the creepyness of how and why it appeals to males.

It has nothing to do with it's feminine aspects. No, the "more feminine" parts of anime are why I enjoy Japanese art and whatnot.
 
Htown said:
I feel like if you want characters that act like adults, you should watch anime with characters who are adults and not little girls.



yo damn
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For example, this guy seems to think moe means characters who are little girls. Where is your scathing retort, crab?
After all, there are plenty of moe characters who are neither little nor girls, nor even aimed at a male audience.
 
Angelus Errare said:
萌える - To sprout, to budd, to have a newly formed attraction, a crush in it's infant stages.

Not sure how there can be mature moe and still be "moe".
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But all of that seems to refer to the person who feels the attraction, not the object of attraction, so using that definition to determine if something can be moe and mature at the same time doesn't work.
 
The Technomancer said:
To pull on one thing specifically: if the characters are mature and able to take care of themselves, what's moe about them?
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Perhaps that. Some otaku find a woman who can take care of and protect them moe.

I think moe traits are any pretty much any personality or physical traits that otaku find endearing. Many men in Japan are scared by traditional gender roles, like being a big strong man who makes a paycheck and can take care of a family. A lot of men in Japan are scared of that gender role, and that's why a lot of men in Japan are still single.

So a lot of men might not find that not fun. And instead of working woman who doesn't care how much money he makes or how strong he is, very moe and comforting. A lot of men in Japan use moe to help escape from their gender roles. Of feeling like they can't be in a relationship if they don't make enough money.

A woman who can not only take care of herself, but also a man, would be very moe to many men.

Unfortunately, many otaku fall back on traditional gender roles even more for comfort. Instead of empowering women and disregarding gender roles. Many people in otaku culture, and "nerd" cultures around the world, do so by trying to put women even father below them, than taking comfort in letting go. And a lot of problems in moe culture come from that. Men who become misogynistic because they've "failed" their gender role, instead of letting go of it, and directing their frustrations upon the gender role itself instead of women.
 
Just take a trip back in time to the '80s.

J9IwhN2.jpg


Dirty Pair: A two-woman anti-terrorist team who cause more destruction than they solve.
 
Dali said:
Epic title change basically summing up how the OP wants something diametrically the opposite of what more... But to still somehow be moe.
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But.. but... I don't think they are diametrically opposed. I think that moe is misunderstood and generalized.
 
Envelope said:
I doubt your definition is the same as holybaikal's, nor is it the same as technomancer's, nor is it the same as the average weeaboo's... there isn't an agreed upon definition, so understanding that people can have very different opinions on what moe means should actually be more helpful for you in formulating or updating your own opinion.
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I think if you were to draw a Venn diagram of the different concepts discussed, mine would probably overlap with the largest amount of people who have some conception attached the word moe; the evidence being that the vast majority of people who have come into this thread think that moe means "cute little girls" or at broadest "cute and childike". But sure, okay, even if people have very different opinions on the precise definition of the word "moe", though, that shouldn't stop conversation. My definition of "moe" is roughly synonymous with "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance". You can simply replace whenever I, and many other people, say "moe" in arguments with that longer, more precise definition: I hope you don't disagree to the statement that '"characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" are bad things that are overly present in anime and turn a large number of people off the medium'.

If you agree with me that "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" are bad things, but you disagree that this is the definition of "moe"; or that it is an incomplete definition of moe; you might be better off just abandoning the idea that the part of moe you like is usefully even called moe. You'd probably receive greater respect from other people if you claimed a more unique sub-genre title for yourself that clearly discriminated against "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" more.
 
HOLYYYYYYYY, what did I tell you about using the m word around here?

ghostjoke said:
I always liked the definition "moe is when your heart gets a boner".

That been said, moe needs to die in the eternal fires. Has it really gotten that bad? only anime I've watched in the past two years have been Jojo, Space Dandy, and Terror in Resonance
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That means you haven't watched Space Brothers, which is a terrible mistake that you should fix right now.
 
HolyBaikal said:
But.. but... I don't think they are diametrically opposed. I think that moe is misunderstood and generalized.
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Straight from animenewsnetwork

Moe is a Japanese term used in connection with manga or anime to describe something precious, usually (but not always) the ideal of youthful and innocent femininity. Written with the kanji for "to bud or sprout" (萌), the concept covers a range of ideal behaviour for youthful female characters in manga or anime. To be moe, a character can be eager or perky, not overly independent, and call forth a desire in the viewer to protect them and nurture them. The term is also used to describe any preciously cute item; there is an animal mascot character store in Tokyo called Moe.
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I think we can put this mature moe idea to rest.
 
I just wanted GAF to know that MangaGAF is nothing like AnimeGAF... we have good people... GOOD PEOPLE!!!
 
Ferrio said:
Straight from animenewsnetwork



I think we can put this mature moe idea to rest.
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I respect their opinions and all but... I think we don't totally agree. I think moe means more than that.

A lot of moe is an escape. I know that a lot of people here don't like escapism, but it's not necessarily going to be about protecting women. You can "burn" or be passionate about any personality traits you find in someone.

Moe and how popular it is, is kind of like a response to the social stress to submit to gender roles of hegemonic masculnity. To be a provider and protector and make a lot of money.

Some otaku respond to that by taking it out on women. By trying to lower and "infantilize" women and being helpless. Instead of taking it out on the gender roles themselves. This is actually a problem with almost all nerd cultures. A lot of "nerds" don't adhere to athletic traditional masculinity. But instead of believing in women and that not everyone thinks that not being all masculine gender roles is okay, they take it out on women instead of the gender roles.

You can see this in sexist thing like GamerGate and other misogynist gamer things. Instead of dismissing traditional masculinity when the realize that playing video games doesn't make them a big macho man, they turn it into a misogynistic boys club that is suspicious of women and degrades them. All because they blame women for their insecurity, instead of their gender roles.
 
Tohsaka said:
Not true at all. Shows like Aria the Animation and Tamayura are highly praised and primarily made up of girls, but they are strong characters who actually have development. Moe doesn't just mean being weak and submissive to guys.
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Aria is a moe show? Could have fooled me. Seemed to be just a normal slice of life show(set on mars). Might as well call Utena a moe show because it also has female leads.

Either way, oh boy two shows out of the millions of moe shows that play up the wai fu bullshit.
 
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