I would like to see more moe characters in anme who are strong and "mature".

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HolyBaikal said:
I think moe traits are any pretty much any personality or physical traits that otaku find endearing.
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In that case, moe is pretty much everything. Unless you have a more specific definition of endearing.

What is the difference between between a strong, independent woman and a strong, independent moe woman?
 
HolyBaikal said:
I respect their opinions and all but... I think we don't totally agree. I think moe means more than that.

A lot of moe is an escape. I know that a lot of people here don't like escapism, but it's not necessarily going to be about protecting women. You can "burn" or be passionate about any personality traits you find in someone.

Moe and how popular it is, is kind of like a response to the social stress to submit to gender roles of hegemonic masculnity. To be a provider and protector and make a lot of money.

Some otaku respond to that by taking it out on women. By trying to lower and "infantilize" women and being helpless. Instead of taking it out on the gender roles themselves. This is actually a problem with almost all nerd cultures. A lot of "nerds" don't adhere to athletic traditional masculinity. But instead of believing in women and that not everyone thinks that not being all masculine gender roles is okay, they take it out on women instead of the gender roles.

You can see this in sexist thing like GamerGate and other misogynist gamer things. Instead of dismissing traditional masculinity when the realize that playing video games doesn't make them a big macho man, they turn it into a misogynistic boys club that is suspicious of women and degrades them. All because they blame women for their insecurity, instead of their gender roles.
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Again I find myself agreeing with your social critique but being not sure where you're approaching moe from then. What would a mature moe character be like? Emotionally mature but aesthetically cute? Is the moe then just the aesthetic cuteness there?
 
Crab said:
I think if you were to draw a Venn diagram of the different concepts discussed, mine would probably overlap with the largest amount of people who have some conception attached the word moe; the evidence being that the vast majority of people who have come into this thread think that moe means "cute little girls" or at broadest "cute and childike". But sure, okay,even if people have very different opinions on the precise definition of the word "moe", though, that shouldn't stop conversation. My definition of "moe" is roughly synonymous with "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance". You can simply replace whenever I, and many other people, say "moe" with this: I hope you don't disagree to the statement that "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" are bad things that are overly present in anime and turn a large number of people off the medium.

If you agree with me that "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" are bad things, but you disagree that this is the definition of "moe"; or that it is an incomplete definition of moe; you might be better off just abandoning the idea that the part of moe you like is usefully even called moe. You'd probably receive greater respect from other people if you claimed a more unique sub-genre title for yourself that clearly discriminated against "characters created with the intent of looking pre-pubescent and acting with pre-pubescent mannerisms; particularly ones that rob them of agency or cause them to require assistance" more.
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The problem is when you substitute your unsubstantiated definition into other people's usage of the word, and then work under the assumption that the other person agrees with your definition and is using the word in the same way you are. Normally, that kind of assumption makes sense, but moe is currently such a nebulous and undefined and vague term that, as you can see in this thread alone, your assumption causes a lot of confusion and ill will where none need exist. I agree that for many people, your definition rings true. However it's by no means the universal principle you'd like it to be - I don't think you have a strong enough argument that your definition should force others to abandon referring to what they find moe as moe - that seems counterintuitive to your previous statement that "that shouldn't stop conversation". I would say there's a large number of people, you included, who see the infantile design aesthetic that's been presented several times in this thread, and then used that as your basis for defining moe. That in turn leads you to disregard anything that doesn't fit your definition - and even ignore any "non-moe" aspects about something you've already labeled as moe. For example, do you consider K-On! to be a moe anime?
 
HolyBaikal said:
I respect their opinions and all but... I think we don't totally agree. I think moe means more than that.

A lot of moe is an escape. I know that a lot of people here don't like escapism, but it's not necessarily going to be about protecting women. You can "burn" or be passionate about any personality traits you find in someone.

Moe and how popular it is, is kind of like a response to the social stress to submit to gender roles of hegemonic masculnity. To be a provider and protector and make a lot of money.

Some otaku respond to that by taking it out on women. By trying to lower and "infantilize" women and being helpless. Instead of taking it out on the gender roles themselves. This is actually a problem with almost all nerd cultures. A lot of "nerds" don't adhere to athletic traditional masculinity. But instead of believing in women and that not everyone thinks that not being all masculine gender roles is okay, they take it out on women instead of the gender roles.

You can see this in sexist thing like GamerGate and other misogynist gamer things. Instead of dismissing traditional masculinity when the realize that playing video games doesn't make them a big macho man, they turn it into a misogynistic boys club that is suspicious of women and degrades them. All because they blame women for their insecurity, instead of their gender roles.
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I really have a hard time understanding your definition of Moe. It seems to not be what every other definition is, and that makes me think you'd have an easier time wishing for a new genre rather than attaching the Moe name to it.
 
HolyBaikal said:
I'm sorry everyone. I was trying to have a nuanced discussion about characterization. I didn't realize I would be bothering people by making this thread. ;_;

I really like talking about anime and moe since I'm a fan of them and they make me happy.
I thought maybe if I talked about something that a lot of people don't like about moe, and how to improve it. Things might go a little better...
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You really need to stop talking like you're a 2 year old. This is 90% of the reason all your threads turn to shit.
 
jstripes said:
Just take a trip back in time to the '80s.

J9IwhN2.jpg


Dirty Pair: A two-woman anti-terrorist team who cause more destruction than they solve.
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I miss 80s anime. This moe crap lost me.
 
Envelope said:
The problem is when you substitute your unsubstantiated definition into other people's usage of the word, and then work under the assumption that the other person agrees with your definition and is using the word in the same way you are. Normally, that kind of assumption makes sense, but moe is currently such a nebulous and undefined and vague term that, as you can see in this thread alone, your assumption causes a lot of confusion and ill will where none need exist.
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So, there's a problem here. Words exist to be used. If a word has no common definition between two parties, then it is effectively meaningless as it can't be used to hold a conversation between the two. If moe's meaining is so different from person to person that we're literally talking about two different things, there's literally no point in using the word moe in the first place. However, that's clearly not the case. Many people use the word moe, and in the vast majority of cases the other person will understand it as the definition I gave above.

In my experience, people who quibble about the definition of the word moe never actually provide their own definition, actually. They just say "the word is vague" as a means of escaping the charge that they're interested with infantilization without actually having to fully deny the charge. HolyBaikal is an example of that in this thread - he or she has never once provided their own definition of what moe is, simply denying what others say it is.

I agree that for many people, your definition rings true. However it's by no means the universal principle you'd like it to be - I don't think you have a strong enough argument that your definition should force others to abandon referring to what they find moe as moe - that seems counterintuitive to your previous statement that "that shouldn't stop conversation".
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It doesn't stop conversation. Anyone who had an abnormal definition of moe can continue all the same conversations they used to have simply by adopting a different word; and it's clearly beneficial for them to do so because now they're not at risk of being tarred by the same brush.

I would say there's a large number of people, you included, who see the infantile design aesthetic that's been presented several times in this thread, and then used that as your basis for defining moe. That in turn leads you to disregard anything that doesn't fit your definition - and even ignore any "non-moe" aspects about something you've already labeled as moe. For example, do you consider K-On! to be a moe anime?
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Yes. K-On features characters with pre-pubescent designs and mannerisms who are frequently portrayed as being in need of a protector. There is a strong subculture associated with the sexualization of these pre-pubescent characters. This fits quite neatly into what I would consider moe.
 
Crab said:
Yes. K-On features characters with pre-pubescent designs and mannerisms who are frequently portrayed as being in need of a protector. There is a strong subculture associated with the sexualization of these pre-pubescent characters. This fits quite neatly into what I would consider moe.
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Well...except where it matters *cough cough*
 
As far as stereotypical representation goes, moe's is far more child-like rather than traditionally feminine (a painting of Madonna with child is like the epitome of non-sexual femininity, but it no way whatsoever moe). Which is where the problem with maturity comes in, because children generally lack life experience for maturity.

There certainly is anime about strong child characters (that mature in the course of the story,) though mostly those will be found in shows that are aimed at children in the first place. It's similar when it comes to My Little Pony, this show is aimed at children, and to them these can be some fairly complex and mature characters. Adults watching it just results in them being adorable, positive, nostalgic etc - it's more about the reaction, which moe also very much is.

I think there can be anime with strong and mature characters who are perceived as moe. But it will be targeted at characters of similar age as the viewer, facing many of the problems the viewer might face. Then a much older person can view it and all these problems and the maturity that comes with them will be something the viewer has already gone through and the viewer will be in a superior position.
And then there are the shows that aim at the adult audience for the pure pandering of course.
 
The Technomancer said:
Well...except where it matters *cough cough*
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Yes, and that's the other worrying part - the total mismatch between adult female sexual features and the otherwise child-like remainder. It's a ridiculously unhealthy way to portray young girls.
 
alekth said:
As far as stereotypical representation goes, moe's is far more child-like rather than traditionally feminine (a painting of Madonna with child is like the epitome of non-sexual femininity, but it no way whatsoever moe). Which is where the problem with maturity comes in, because children generally lack life experience for maturity.

There certainly is anime about strong child characters (that mature in the course of the story,) though mostly those will be found in shows that are aimed at children in the first place. It's similar when it comes to My Little Pony, this show is aimed at children, and to them these can be some fairly complex and mature characters. Adults watching it just results in them being adorable, positive, nostalgic etc - it's more about the reaction, which moe also very much is.

I think there can be anime with strong and mature characters who are perceived as moe. But it will be targeted at characters of similar age as the viewer, facing many of the problems the viewer might face. Then a much older person can view it and all these problems and the maturity that comes with them will be something the viewer has already gone through and the viewer will be in a superior position.
And then there are the shows that aim at the adult audience for the pure pandering of course.
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This summarizes some thoughts I was trying to put together very nicely.
 
Good to see people still attribute moe to a look when it's just a feeling.

Classic example I like to give is Kaiji, since 1. he's male and 2. the look of that show is very distinctive. Most people who attribute moe to a look would never in a million years say Kaiji is moe, but the truth is, he is.

It's a feeling. Anyone can find anything moe. Ergo to say abolish moe means destroy all matter. Good luck with that.
 
HolyBaikal said:
I think that diversity is nice. I wouldn't choose one or the other.

But I suppose if I had to choose to live in a world with all moe characters, or no moe characters, I would choose all moe characters.
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Honest question, what is your life like in the real world? Your fascination with all things cute and your unique perspective on the world has always made me curious.
 
Crab said:
Yes, and that's the other worrying part - the total mismatch between adult female sexual features and the otherwise child-like remainder. It's a ridiculously unhealthy way to portray young girls.
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The K-ON girls are in high school, and don't look or act pre-pubescent. Yui is really the only one who acts immature, but she's just a free spirit. The show really doesn't have much in the way of sexualization, either.
 
Tohsaka said:
The K-ON girls are in high school, and don't look or act pre-pubescent. Yui is really the only one who acts immature, but she's just a free spirit. The show really doesn't have much in the way of sexualization, either.
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Look? Debatable, at least. Their faces certainly seem young but some of that can be chalked up to anime in general. Act? Unless the first six episodes are entirely unrepresentative of K-On those girls act quite a bit younger and more whimsical than any teen girls I've interacted with recently, and some of my work has me teaching them with some frequency.
 
The Technomancer said:
Look? Debatable, at least. Their faces certainly seem young but some of that can be chalked up to anime in general. Act? Unless the first six episodes are entirely unrepresentative of K-On those girls act quite a bit younger and more whimsical than any teen girls I've interacted with recently, and some of my work has me teaching them with some frequency.
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ya but are you in japan?

check and mate
 
Tohsaka said:
The K-ON girls are in high school, and don't look or act pre-pubescent. Yui is really the only one who acts immature, but she's just a free spirit. The show really doesn't have much in the way of sexualization, either.
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...not to be mean, or anything, but when was the last time you interacted with or even saw a high school-aged girl?

EDIT: What The Technomancer says, in fact.
 
Crab said:
So, there's a problem here. Words exist to be used. If a word has no common definition between two parties, then it is effectively meaningless as it can't be used to hold a conversation between the two. If moe's meaining is so different from person to person that we're literally talking about two different things, there's literally no point in using the word moe in the first place. However, that's clearly not the case. Many people use the word moe, and in the vast majority of cases the other person will understand it as the definition I gave
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here's my first point that I disagree with you on. Why do you assume most people agree with your definition?
In my experience, people who quibble about the definition of the word moe never actually provide their own definition, actually. They just say "the word is vague" as a means of escaping the charge that they're interested with infantilization without actually having to fully deny the charge. HolyBaikal is an example of that in this thread - he or she has never once provided their own definition of what moe is, simply denying what others say it is.
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yeah that's true, let's say for the purpose of this conversation that moe is a warm fuzzy reaction to something, not that something itself. I think this is more true to the origins of the usage of moe in this context, as well as showing how your definition came to be - cute blobby infantile things will more consistently elicit that reaction, would you agree?
Yes. K-On features characters with pre-pubescent designs and mannerisms who are frequently portrayed as being in need of a protector. There is a strong subculture associated with the sexualization of these pre-pubescent characters. This fits quite neatly into what I would consider moe.
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Ah, another point of divergence. Why do you say their designs are pre-pubescent? At no point in the show are they shown as excessively weak or in need of a protector - they manage everything they do in the show by themselves. I dont think their mannerisms are excessively childish either - I think the argument can be made that it's rather vapid, but I'm not seeing excessively childish behavior or designs with an intention of showing them as weak and in need of a protector. Do you mind expanding further on why you would characterize it as such?
 
I don't know how anyone could see Gasai Yuno from Mirai Nikki as moe even without the extreme end of Yandere.

On the other hand homegirl from Watamote can be moe. Some viewers legitimately feel bad for her and want to protect her because of how akward she is and the situations she inevitably gets herself into.

Moe is a characterization brought on by another aspect of a character, not a genre.
 
The Technomancer said:
Look? Debatable, at least. Their faces certainly seem young but some of that can be chalked up to anime in general. Act? Unless the first six episodes are entirely unrepresentative of K-On those girls act quite a bit younger and more whimsical than any teen girls I've interacted with recently, and some of my work has me teaching them with some frequency.
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The faces are just the art style, their bodies certainly aren't pre-pubescent. The anime isn't really trying to be realistic or anything, it's just a fun slice of life show without the drama that ruins so many other ones. At least it doesn't have the girls being obsessed with some loser guy like so many harem shows that air every season.
 
The Technomancer said:
Look? Debatable, at least. Their faces certainly seem young but some of that can be chalked up to anime in general. Act? Unless the first six episodes are entirely unrepresentative of K-On those girls act quite a bit younger and more whimsical than any teen girls I've interacted with recently, and some of my work has me teaching them with some frequency.
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Appreciate this response, I wouldn't say that they way they act is characteristic of real teenage girls, but neither is it characteristic of children -,I would use the word vapid, rather than prepubescent.


I definitely wouldn't say their character designs are prepubescent, and I'm curious as to why others would.
 
entrement said:
I miss 80s anime. This moe crap lost me.
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Me too. I also miss some 1960's anime style, especially from Toei back in the day. http://youtu.be/xC6aN-hkdu4?t=34s

Anju to Zushiō Maru is the name of the movie and pretty hard to find or stream. If you search it with the accented ō i'll be first result on Google, lol.

The closest we've ever come to the anime art style of the 60's was Wind Waker from mimicking Wanpaku Ōji no Orochi Taiji. Wanpaku Ōji no Orochi Taiji is definitely worth a watch if you can find it! It is superb.

FelixOrion said:
Travis is moe as fuck
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Hell yes he is!
 
Akane from Psycho Pass is basically the only competent person in her show. Since she is a lead investigator you could easily describe her as strong and mature.

ibr2JaIqtg8R1S.gif


She is also the most moe and GAF's waifu.
 
Moe, by definition, cannot be mature.

Moe anime and culture is also shit. It single handedly ruined the anime industry (and/or kept it afloat depending on how you look at it).
 
Crab said:
...not to be mean, or anything, but when was the last time you interacted with or even saw a high school-aged girl?

EDIT: What The Technomancer says, in fact.
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As I said in my other post, the anime doesn't have a realistic art style and isn't trying to be something with a deep plot where the characters have to face lots of problems. It's just a relaxing slice of life.
Aquamarine said:
are you sure about that?
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hIZfqcu.jpg
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They certainly don't look pre-pubescent to me. Azusa is the only one who's smallish for her age.
 
BGBW said:
Akane from Psycho Pass is basically the only competent person in her show. Since she is a lead investigator you could easily describe her as strong and mature.

ibr2JaIqtg8R1S.gif


She is also the most moe and GAF's waifu.
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Also a terrible protagonist in S2, but we all knew that already.
 
Anime doesn't need more moe, it needs less of it.

Bring back some Cowboy bebop, and classic Ghibli characters with some proper character developments.

I rather watch a great anime, several times, than watch a sub average anime with no character depth or substance to it's story.

Moe to me, is like a soulless Ghoul, a freaking walking corpse, with nothing of worth inside.
 
Envelope said:
here's my first point that I disagree with you on. Why do you assume most people agree with your definition?
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Do a quick head count in this thread of the definitions.

yeah that's true, let's say for the purpose of this conversation that moe is a warm fuzzy reaction to something, not that something itself. I think this is more true to the origins of the usage of moe in this context, as well as showing how your definition came to be - cute blobby infantile things will more consistently elicit that reaction, would you agree?
Click to expand...

Even if this is true, I don't think the word is salvageable at this point. Why not just accept that "moe" has been stolen in the eyes of the public by the infantilized version? It'll probably elicit less hostility if you say "I like shows which cause you to have a warm, fuzzy feeling" than "I like shows that feature little girls"; which is the way saying "I like moe" is perceived.

Ah, another point of divergence. Why do you say their designs are pre-pubescent? At no point in the show are they shown as excessively weak or in need of a protector - they manage everything they do in the show by themselves. I dont think their mannerisms are excessively childish either - I think the argument can be made that it's rather vapid, but I'm not seeing excessively childish behavior or designs with an intention of showing them as weak and in need of a protector. Do you mind expanding further on why you would characterize it as such?
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As posted above, their designs are clearly imitating pre-pubesence with the exception of their sexual features - which in itself is really worrying. We're talking overly large eyes, petite hands, reduced lips, rounded faces, small figures, and so on. I mean, seriously, look at Aquamarine's post. That just isn't what high school aged girls look like. The show revolves around their relative whimsicality and immaturity - drama without actual drama. While there is never any situation that actually requires an protector in the show (hence the "without actual drama"), if you were to transpose them into a real life situation, which is how much of the fan-base likes to imagine them, it's quite clear they'd require someone to provide protection or guidance or they just wouldn't function.
 
Crab said:
Doesn't have anything to do with femininity or masculinity. I personally dislike it because a) it encourages the infantilization of those who engage in the medium, and b) it frequently sexualizes that infantilization, which is unavoidably creepy. The overwhelming impression I get from people who engage in moe media is that they are seriously lacking in emotional maturity, and a substantial subset harbours rather unhealthy attitudes towards pre-teen girls.
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I can enjoy the moe style here and there (Lucky Star, K-On) but this post nails it for me. The style really harps on animating girls into a pre-teen mold that not all find "cute" but rather full on creepy. Just look at Senran Kagura and its basic premise of having the player rip the clothes off of moe styled girls... and it's frightening how popular those games are.

Also you end up getting people acting like this in public thinking it's cute...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLmD_69pXpk
 
Crab said:
As posted above, their designs are clearly imitating pre-pubesence with the exception of their sexual features - which in itself is really worrying. We're talking overly large eyes, petite hands, reduced lips, rounded faces, small figures, and so on. I mean, seriously, look at Aquamarine's post. That just isn't what high school aged girls look like. The show revolves around their relative whimsicality and immaturity - drama without actual drama. While there is never any situation that actually requires an protector in the show (hence the "without actual drama"), if you were to transpose them into a real life situation, which is how much of the fan-base likes to imagine them, it's quite clear they'd require someone to provide protection or guidance or they just wouldn't function.
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Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
 
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