Insane retcon to Joker's origin story (Batman #38 SPOILERS)

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Ahasverus said:
Typical bad writing. "I said this but you can't prove it or deny it anymore".
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Ahasverus said:
Yes, pretty much. I don't like how no writer has the balls to make a definitive story, because most of them are just bad fan fiction.
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animlboogy said:
I'm not sure if The Killing Joke was every really intended to be in-continuity anyway. Same with stuff like Son of the Demon. It just ended up being used by writers on the mintgoy books anyway.
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As you said there is no firm continuity to the Joker's origins, but most use The Killing Joke as a default. I quite like Snyder's take presented in Zero Year (though it is only ever assumed that the Red Hood in that run would later be the Joker), which is similar to how he is presented in BTAS, where he's an active mobster type. Not particularly crazy, or goofy like he would later be, but skilled and charismatic.

Snyder did an interview talking about his run, and this issue in particular. He very specifically mentions not wanting to do anything disrespectful with the character of the Joker, and I believe he is sincere in that thought. We'll have to see how everything concludes before casting judgement on his supposedly continuity altering ways. But this is the guy who made the Riddler genuinely threatening, and Crazy Quilt viable. I'd trust his take on any Batman character
 
Automatisch said:
What a shitty original title. There were many other ways to convey your shock and yet you just put it all out there.
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Such as "They really messed up the Batman cannon (spoilers for current comic)".

Not that I'm upset as I'm a very casual Batman fan (as in only have one or two storylines in two compilations and mostly know Batman from cartoons and movies). But I can understand how people could be who do follow the comic closely.
 
....uh if thats true then batman can't stop joker...just terrible...

He can't be on Vandals level but even before this shit he was a rival for Batman...just terrible.
 
Ahasverus said:
Yes, pretty much. I don't like how no writer has the balls to make a definitive story, because most of them are just bad fan fiction.
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TKJ is pretty clever about that. It's so well done that you could very readily accept it as the official origin story, but Moore does leave that "multiple choice" line in there so it can be left open again if you want to keep it unknowable.

I've always accepted it as the real origin, because hey... it was so well done and tragic and I don't really think it makes sense to read a dense 40 page origin story only to be told at the end that it never happened.
 
I thought all superheroes and villains were, technically, immortal.

No one important ever stays dead.
 
PsychBat! said:
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Haha. I don't want to be /that guy/ but the origin story I like the most is the one Nolan used as the basis for the character (but didn't include in the movie) about thr Joker being a former soldier left for dead and afflicted with PTSD.
Delta Assault said:
TKJ is pretty clever about that. It's so well done that you could very readily accept it as the official origin story, but Moore does leave that "multiple choice" line in there so it can be left open again if you want to keep it unknowable.

I've always accepted it as the real origin, because hey... it was so well done and tragic and I don't really think it makes sense to read a dense 40 page origin story only to be told at the end that it never happened.
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I love that story. The origin plot might be basic, but the theme of there being a "snap" pont and its relation to Batman was amazing. Arkham Origins did it super great too.
 
Alienous said:
As you said there is no firm continuity to the Joker's origins, but most use The Killing Joke as a default. I quite like Snyder's take presented in Zero Year (though it is only ever assumed that the Red Hood in that run would later be the Joker), which is similar to how he is presented in BTAS, where he's an active mobster type. Not particularly crazy, or goofy like he would later be, but skilled and charismatic.

Snyder done an interview talking about his run, and this issue in particular. He very specifically mentions not wanting to do anything disrespectful with the character of the Joker, and I believe he is sincere in that though. We'll have to see how everything concludes before casting judgement on his supposedly continuity altering ways. But this is the guy who made the Riddler genuinely threatening, and Crazy Quilt viable. I'd trust his take on any Batman character
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Pretty much. There's no reason to doubt Snyder at this point based on his work on New 52. He knows the characters well enough and what makes them intriguing.
 
exmachina64 said:
A rare chemical that occasionally exists in large enough quantities to grant the random person who stumbles upon it immortality.
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Basically Joker is Ra's Al Ghul, "the demon", here.

The retcon made easy: the guy sampled was Ra's pretending to be Joker for some reason. TA-DA! Or the guy just had no fucking idea who he was looking at.
It's even downright stated in his dialogue. Why bother calling him a demon if you're not talking about Ra's anyway?

Disclaimer: I only know the animated series (all of them) and the wiki's for The Killing Joke and characters. I also recently played the section of Arkham City that referred to 'the demon's blood', which there is separate from the Lazarus pits in the animated series.

Personally I would avoid making Joker immortal because this isn't someone driven mad by time, but just mad and in no way capable of learning new tricks like a good little doggy. He's not Batman, he just does things. That there might a joker for every batman is another matter, but being 'forever' is just not what the Joker is about. In a way, he really wants to die, or at least doesn't give a shit about anything Batman would give a shit about. That's what bothers batsie so much anyway. :P
 
Besides all of this is worth it for the last page in this issue-the depths to which Batman is willing to go to in order to get the answers. Fucking goosebumps man. But again-that won't have impact unless you've read the entire story.
 
Alienous said:
For people who haven't been reading the run the concept is that the Joker has existed in Gotham for years wreaking havoc, and that he has finally 'beaten' Batman by poising the entire city with a toxin Bruce can't cure, not in a 'fun' way but simply to tear Gotham apart because he feels like Batman is hopeless (in an earlier run he tries to get Batman to kill the Bat Family so that things could be like when they first met).

Whilst Snyder has confirmed that the event isn't a dream, the run isn't over yet, and it's unlikely that The Joker's origins have changed to that degree. Snyder previously told the story of the Red Hood in his Zero Year run, and in Death of the Family Joker's origins are still stated to be at Ace Chemicals.

Screen+Shot+2013-10-10+at+12.19.57+AM.png


TL;DR: The run isn't over yet. Their are still a few issues left and big revelations upcoming, so I wouldn't see this as anything but a story point.
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Exactly this. Until the story arc is over (two more issues? I think it is six parts long), we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.
 
I suppose I don't see the problem with this, but perhaps I would if I read comics with any regularity.

It's also stupid, psuedo-scientific babble, so a different set of psuedo-scientific babble doesn't bother me more.
 
animlboogy said:
It's a tonal issue. The lore around Batman and Gotham is slowly becoming like a 90's Vertigo book rather than street level crime with masks. That's kind of OK by me, though, even if this origin makes me reflexively uncomfortable. Every decade has a different tone for each major hero. A few years of exploring this dark, almost magical side to Batman's lore could be very interesting and fun.

The only downside I see personally is that I wonder if a lot of these choices are more about building a DCU with a more sensible internal logic -- why doesn't The Flash go do something about some thug in whiteface like the Joker? -- than coming up with cool ideas for a specific character. The Nu52 books have been about building threads between each mainline book, when previously they would cross over sporadically but mainly have their own rules and casts in individual titles. Perhaps in the age of internet fandom and wikis, you can't have a human Batman taking on human villains as a real problem when the Green Lantern could take care of it all in a half hour.
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I like that actually.
 
I hope that DC Comics never does a "The Joker: Origin" storyline like Marvel did with Wolverine.

Knowing Wolverine's real name (and now that he can actually die) took the fun and mystery out of the character. I like not knowing how he got to be the way he is. Same with the Joker. I don't really want to know.

Of course this may actually be more interesting than a blurb would indicate.
 
Dalek said:
Besides all of this is worth it for the last page in this issue-the depths to which Batman is willing to go to in order to get the answers. Fucking goosebumps man. But again-that won't have impact unless you've read the entire story.
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Nothing beats Batman going into rage and declaring he getting his son back in Robin Rises:Omega 1 last page
 
animlboogy said:
It's a tonal issue. The lore around Batman and Gotham is slowly becoming like a 90's Vertigo book rather than street level crime with masks. That's kind of OK by me, though, even if this origin makes me reflexively uncomfortable. Every decade has a different tone for each major hero. A few years of exploring this dark, almost magical side to Batman's lore could be very interesting and fun.
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slowly? gothams had an occult history since the 80s
 
Opiate said:
I suppose I don't see the problem with this, but perhaps I would if I read comics with any regularity.

It's also stupid, psuedo-scientific babble, so a different set of psuedo-scientific babble doesn't bother me more.
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As much as I hate to be that guy.

Pseudo.
 
This is really stupid, but once you get to the whole batgod/Gotham is a city MADE OF DEMONS/supernatural wankery, having Bruce go home and fail to punch the Joker was a weird inconsistency when it seemed so below his pay grade.

my main problem with this is that instead of deescalating batman and gotham back into being beleivable, they just made everything else stupid to match it. That sucks.
 
I'm sure when this turns out to be a red herring no one will know about it, and a couple of months from now when there's an OT comic thread someone will say "isn't joker immortal now?" And someone will reply "oh no that was false" and someone else will say lolcomics
 
Skilletor said:
Is it a retcon if it's the origin of new52 joker and not any of the numerous jokers on any of the numerous earths?
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There was an absolutely awful Joker origin story during DC's villains month, which was about him raising a monkey to be his evil sidekick.
 
Ahasverus said:
I wonder if he turned white and green before or after.
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After if they're keeping the Killing Joke. Didn't he fall into Gotham's chemical plant or whatever and then had his appearance change?
 
I was really hoping after the 52 reboot that DC would avoid the ridiculousness of the multiverse, etc. and at least try to keep things grounded.

The we have Supes bangin Wonder Woman, character deaths with quick returns, now making Joker immortal.

For fucks sake DC, guess it won't matter when the entire universe is "rebooted" again 5 years from now when you back yourselves into a corner with no way to undo what's been done.
 
They should retcon it even further to say that the meteorite lets him jump across dimensions and that the Golden Age Joker, Silver Age Joker, Bronze Age Joker, Heath Ledger Joker, Batman TAS and all the Elseworlds Jokers are the same Joker who jumps between realities tormenting every Batman from all the universes for all eternity.

So basically he's Randall Flagg.
 
I really want some writer to do a Batman story where the Joker suddenly just, like, robs a bank or something. And Batman and Gordon are freaking out about what "crazy" Saw serial killer shit that the Joker is going to do to the hostages. Batman goes in to fight him, and the Joker just starts cracking jokes again and tries to shoot Batman. And the whole time Batman's wondering what the sick over-the-top 2edgy4me Nu-52 DC Comics twist is, like if the hostages have been poisoned already, or they have bombs in their stomachs or eyeballs or something, or if Joker gas is being pumped into an orphanage across town or whatever.

But it never happens. The Joker just wants some money so he robbed a bank while using some goofy joke gimmick and that's all, and he gets really disgusted when Batman keeps asking him what kind of gross shit he's pulling. Batman and Gordon put the Joker away in Arkham and can't figure out if Joker is trying some stupid "crazy genius" mindgames or if he seriously just wanted money and doesn't want to be a super Jigsaw clown anymore.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
I really want some writer to do a Batman story where the Joker suddenly just, like, robs a bank or something. And Batman and Gordon are freaking out about what "crazy" Saw serial killer shit that the Joker is going to do to the hostages. Batman goes in to fight him, and the Joker just starts cracking jokes again and tries to shoot Batman. And the whole time Batman's wondering what the sick over-the-top 2edgy4me Nu-52 DC Comics twist is, like if the hostages have been poisoned already, or they have bombs in their stomachs or eyeballs or something, or if Joker gas is being pumped into an orphanage across town or whatever.

But it never happens. The Joker just wants some money so he robbed a bank while using some goofy joke gimmick and that's all, and he gets really disgusted when Batman keeps asking him what kind of gross shit he's pulling. Batman and Gordon put the Joker away in Arkham and can't figure out if Joker is trying some stupid "crazy genius" mindgames or if he seriously just wanted money and doesn't want to be a super Jigsaw clown anymore.
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Real talk, Joker's Millions was the best Joker story.
 
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