That is a solid argument. You could always use promotion and relegation via the regional system, just like teams are separated to different divisions inside the leagues. It would also guarantee representation across the country, just like in the Champions League in Europe.
Why is relegation/promotion not used in American sports?
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That is a solid argument. You could always use promotion and relegation via the regional system, just like teams are separated to different divisions inside the leagues. It would also guarantee representation across the country, just like in the Champions League in Europe.
As others have said, money.
Bad example. Manchester United (as much as I hate them) have virtually no risk of relegation. Sure, its hardly risk free, but they're as close to it as any team in a league with promotion/relegation. Obviously the Glazers are in it for money. And they've made a LOT of it from Manchester United. Would they make more of it if the league suddenly cut off promotion and relegation? Probably not. But that's not their problem.
Bad example. Manchester United (as much as I hate them) have virtually no risk of relegation. Sure, its hardly risk free, but they're as close to it as any team in a league with promotion/relegation. Obviously the Glazers are in it for money. And they've made a LOT of it from Manchester United. Would they make more of it if the league suddenly cut off promotion and relegation? Probably not. But that's not their problem.
But administration and relegation is possible if the team runs into financial troubles as a result of overspending. Many teams have had this fate in Europe but have bounced back later on, because of the widespread support the team has had. Leeds, Rangers and so on.
A Black Falcon
Member
How could that work for baseball? There are already baseball teams in most of the markets able to support a team in a sport where you need to be able to draw tens of thousands of people 81 days a year (the home half of a 162 game season). Who would spend the vast sums of money building new stadiums in major markets would cost if you can't even guarantee that the team would be a major league club? That'd be crazy! And just covering other possible cities that don't have teams but could is something better suited for potential future MLB expansion, not relegation-system stuff (cities like Portland Oregon, Montreal, maybe something in Mexico someday, maybe a third team in New York, Las Vegas, etc.).
You make a great point here about distances. All of the minor leagues in baseball, for instance, are regional, because there's only so far you can go on a bus, and private jets are out of reach for leagues that aren't rich, and minor leagues are not rich, and nor would be borderline clubs in a relegation system. It wouldn't work, for that reason as well as the stadium problem and maybe even above it.
Hah, as if those borderline relegation teams ever actually win championships...
Yeah, there's certainly lots of big money in the European soccer system too, that's for sure.
You actually sort of do have this in college sports, now that you mention it, with how schools switch to bigger conferences as their teams get more successful at one of the major college sports... it's not an automated relegation process, but the results are somewhat similar.
No, that's not the only reason.
No, they benefit from the relegation system because if you don't have relegation, then you get more pressure for competitive balance within the league. This has been a major focus in most American pro sports for decades now -- things like revenue sharing, salary caps, etc. as I said, that give all teams in each league a chance. Obviously Man U would never want something like that, they want to dominate their league most of the time and put a lot of their focus into Champions League stuff.
The best comparison of an American major league, in Europe, would be one continent-wide league of only a few teams from each country, as a set major league. That'd be a European counterpart to the American system -- the leagues within each country are too small in scale to compare.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
I still don't see what the benefit is. Only thing you seem to mention is that prevents tanking. Tanking still isn't that common and I'd much rather have that in a league with parity and salary caps than the absolute farce that European society r leagues are where most 1, maybe 2 good teams and the rest never win. There's nothing fun or exhilerating about that. Nor does that prove your point of them needing to manage things, they piss away money like water.
That is just an incorrect way to frame it. We have 50 countries with several good teams in most of them, and also the EUROPA league and Champions League where the best teams from different national leagues play. But you have to earn your way to these continental competitions.
Where is Manchester United in CL this season? Oh right, they are not even in it as they finished outside top-4 last season in England.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Relegating them would be easy because they could just switch arenas with the Marlies.If we're talking North America, this team would be in deep, deep, deep trouble:
Fans wouldn't notice either way. lol
Sure, but relatively it's easier to compete on a game by game basis. You can take a lower level Premier League/second/third tier team English football side and put them against a top Premier League team and they can compete in that game. Or even get a win, like in the FA Cup. Over a 38 game season, sure, they're going to finish at the bottom most likely. But on a game by game basis, they can compete (by compete I mean like, even losing by 2 goals).
Do the same thing in American football and you're getting 50-0 thrashings every week.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Americans have college sports for people who care about athletics below the highest levels. No one is paying $50 to see a D-league team play basketball, and no D-league team could win an actual game against NBA players. So no one would pay to see their team play D-league level competition. Same goes for football.
Baseball has the minors, and players get shuffled in and out pretty regularly, but they are just a farm for the games that people care about.
It's much different than futbol where most of the national attention and great athletes are concentrated in a single sport at all levels.
Fans would not follow the teams into oblivion over here. The rivalries and competition create the fandom. Players wouldn't play for a team if they weren't receiving their full salary. Owners wouldn't pay full salary for a team that's not selling tickets or getting revenue sharing from the rest of the league. It just wouldn't work here.
Baseball has the minors, and players get shuffled in and out pretty regularly, but they are just a farm for the games that people care about.
It's much different than futbol where most of the national attention and great athletes are concentrated in a single sport at all levels.
Fans would not follow the teams into oblivion over here. The rivalries and competition create the fandom. Players wouldn't play for a team if they weren't receiving their full salary. Owners wouldn't pay full salary for a team that's not selling tickets or getting revenue sharing from the rest of the league. It just wouldn't work here.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Because it's a crap way to run sustainable teams and develop players. Also, the parity of American leagues would turn pro\reg from "not protecting certain financial interests" into "financial Russian Roulette." Imagine multiple Borussia Dortmund-esque collapses happening just about every season.
This isn't some The Big Green shit where you cheer for a bunch of local goobers you bump into every Friday at your local pub to maybe beat another team 1-0. Only the best of the best can play in professional American leagues. We care about winning the CHAMPIONSHIP, not moving up to the Division Four in the Westhamstershiresberg North League Tier 8. And even with regulation, the same teams win every year. In the Premier League, five teams have won the championship since 1992.
I'm doing a version of this in NCAA Football 14
ACC/American
SEC/Sun Belt
Big Ten/MAC
PAC12/MWC
Big 12/C-USA
Lowest of the power conference and champ of the non-power conference switch.
It would make the non-power championship games and end of the season games between power conference also-rans more exciting, but it would never happen.
ACC/American
SEC/Sun Belt
Big Ten/MAC
PAC12/MWC
Big 12/C-USA
Lowest of the power conference and champ of the non-power conference switch.
It would make the non-power championship games and end of the season games between power conference also-rans more exciting, but it would never happen.
The Atticus
Member
To be fair, it's not like Manchester United are playing those teams every year, or very often at all.
LyleLanley
Banned
I don't watch enough soccer to understand the nuances of how relegation and promotion work but I feel like if one of the American sports tried it we'd have a team get relegated and then just crush the lower league and be back the following year.
Been an Aston Villa fan since I was 9/10, and been a football and rugby fan all of my life. One thing I have learned beyond doubt is that the American system of running sports is roughly a trillion times better than our European system. It's one of the only areas in life where they have us truly licked.
I support the Miami Dolphins and every year they have a chance, no matter how small. In Europe your only chance is getting bought by an Arab Billionaire. Or if you're a lower league team, a local businessman with bottomless pockets. It's bullshit, and relegation is a sop to make fans forget how utterly dull and predictable the league format is. One or two teams can win it every year with a dark horse or two thrown in, and once a decade it goes down to the wire. Garbage system. Of course, then you have stuff like the FA Cup which is a great competition, but it's still skewed by money and for some reason the fans just don't give a shit about it.
There's no drafting, friend. Children get signed at ludicrously low ages (sometimes as young as 10). They train all through their youths with clubs, and if they make the grade, they become pro footballers by the time they're 16/17, and can make the first team by 18/19. It's totally different to the american system. My cousin plays for Yeovil which is well down the leagues, and even he was training professionally at 13/14 with a big club, only to move on to a lower division when it was clear he wasn't a premier league player.
I support the Miami Dolphins and every year they have a chance, no matter how small. In Europe your only chance is getting bought by an Arab Billionaire. Or if you're a lower league team, a local businessman with bottomless pockets. It's bullshit, and relegation is a sop to make fans forget how utterly dull and predictable the league format is. One or two teams can win it every year with a dark horse or two thrown in, and once a decade it goes down to the wire. Garbage system. Of course, then you have stuff like the FA Cup which is a great competition, but it's still skewed by money and for some reason the fans just don't give a shit about it.
There's no drafting, friend. Children get signed at ludicrously low ages (sometimes as young as 10). They train all through their youths with clubs, and if they make the grade, they become pro footballers by the time they're 16/17, and can make the first team by 18/19. It's totally different to the american system. My cousin plays for Yeovil which is well down the leagues, and even he was training professionally at 13/14 with a big club, only to move on to a lower division when it was clear he wasn't a premier league player.
:lol
there's no draft in football.
You buy players from other clubs, promote from your youth academy or get a free agent
Clubs have to develop their own players
There is no draft.
Players are free to sign to whomever they choose as free agents. And if they have contracts, then they are bought or sold if the player and both clubs agree. And the clubs have youth academies.
The Atticus
Member
The Atticus
Member
Which fans don't give a shit about the FA Cup?
Seems like all of them to me, going by attendances and the atmosphere at recent finals. The fans of the top clubs in the Champs League seem to regard going out as a passing nuisance at worst, and a helpful bonus for their other campaigns at best. Managers often use lower-round games to rest players. It's bizarre and it drives me crazy, it's a great cup.
Maybe in England. In Germany, Dortmund won the league two times in a row without the need for take overs from oil kings. You need to have a good management, a good academy, good scouting and the key part: a superb coach in tune with modern tactics.
Augsburg is another great example right now. I think their transfer budget for every season is around €5M.
Premier League grow a lot thanks to oil money, but also made it impossible for the rest of clubs to do something without take overs. Plastic league.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I feel like the draft is what keeps US fans of perennial losers interested. The chance of landing the next big college star, even for just a few years, is tantalizing. There is always hope, unless your GM is dumb and trades away all of your picks for average/bad players *cough NYC basketball cough*.
Most youth stars come from smaller clubs in Europe or South America. So even the poorest clubs can have talent (until they transfer to a big club, in exchange of big money)
The Atticus
Member
Resting players against weaker sides isn't always about apathy, imo.
Sometimes it's just a way to keep the dressing room happy, and it happens against weaker sides in the CL and EL too!
Hell, United played a pretty damn strong side away at Cambridge, though it may not have happened if the manager were under less pressure.
I think the fans from the UK probably care a lot more than those abroad do.
I hope my question didn't come off as patronizing or something, as I really didn't know how the system works with replenishing each team's stock of players.
Anyway, that sounds incredibly simple, and seems to eliminate the North American sports practice of the worst team getting a top draft pick.
This won't work for a few reasons that have to do with stadium rights and leasing agreements. The best compromise is the an MLB/NHL/NBA system where players are sent down to the lower league to get better. This gives the players development time without punishing the fans of popular franchises.
It's good to see Everton doing great because they're my adopted futbol team.
It's good to see Everton doing great because they're my adopted futbol team.
The Atticus
Member
Yeah, it's not really a case of the superclubs continuously farming the best youth. While, of course a few of the giants have stellar youth setups (Barca, Bayern (bla pls be honest with me), Porto) a lot of great talent rises up from excellent academies like Southampton's.
Shamrock7r
Member
Lots of towns have local, minor league sports teams. Baseball, Basketball, and Arena Football. Overall I like the cap/draft method American sports use because, as others have said, it keeps fans of the worst teams invested to a degree. Not familiar enough with how it works in Europe, but I am pretty sure it's not a simple case of America = Money, Europe = Benevolent, Charity driven and all for the people
The Atticus
Member
I'm glad that nobody has brought up Financial Fair Play :lol
For what it's worth, I do think that there is a 'bubble' to be burst when it comes to the Champions League. A lot of the 'superclubs' are faltering, man.
Look at fucking Milan.
For what it's worth, I do think that there is a 'bubble' to be burst when it comes to the Champions League. A lot of the 'superclubs' are faltering, man.
Look at fucking Milan.
old
Member
I'm not familar with EU sports, but in America sports teams are privately owned and the owners own the league too. No owner is going to vote to allow regulation to exist which would let their business investment (team) get devalued.
Part of what you pay for when you buy an NFL team is a spot in the NFL, a vote at the NFL owners table, a piece of the NFL's revenue sharing package, and portions of other NFL rights. All of that drives up the price of a team, which owners are very fond of.
Part of what you pay for when you buy an NFL team is a spot in the NFL, a vote at the NFL owners table, a piece of the NFL's revenue sharing package, and portions of other NFL rights. All of that drives up the price of a team, which owners are very fond of.
travisbickle
Member
They have no control anyway, that's what is so great the pure emotion over success or failure.
I honestly did not know American sports didn't have multiple leagues?
Squirrel Killer
Member
That could be worked around, although in the long term, it would likely mean that, like in the major soccer leagues, only the venues of the most dominant teams would be worthy of hosting major league events.
This is my reasoning why pro/reg kinda actually sucks. If you're a world class player on a shitty team, why should you be punished by being sent to a lower level league or having to find a roster spot on another team that managed to stay in the top flight? Similarly, if you're a developing player on an over achieving team in the second flight, what business do you have going up against the top flight players or, more likely, riding pine while some "top flight" players who managed to not earn their positions in their old teams get brought in to replace you?
That goes for teams as organizations too. What business does Eibar have hosting Real Madrid? What the hell was Newcastle doing with St James' Park with 50,000+ seats in the Championship?
LyleLanley
Banned
American sports do have other leagues. Baseball and hockey both have multiple levels of minor leagues and Basketball has the D-league. American football is the only sport that doesn't have one.
Squirrel Killer
Member
I cannot parse this double negative.
thanks, vaz. i hope things go well at your new and entirely unpronounceable club.
i suppose this is relevant: why (football) is more american than U.S football
don't mention it boromir, mind.
uhh.
i suppose this is relevant: why (football) is more american than U.S football
don't mention it boromir, mind.
uhh.
But that's why we have transfer windows so that players can move if they show great potential, they can choose their destination depending on the amount of clubs that are interested. Or players can also be loaned to other clubs.
Delta Assault
Member
Just imagine a small town football team playing an NFL team.
That would not be pretty. Probably need some ambulances standing by.
That would not be pretty. Probably need some ambulances standing by.
Squirrel Killer
Member
With trades and free agency, American sports have "transfer windows" too. Pro/reg forces more player movement than needed. I'm sure some of Dimitar Berbatov, Neil Etheridge, Matthew Briggs, John Heitinga, John Arne Riise, Damien Duff, Steve Sidwell, Giorgos Karagounis, Mali Mahamadou Diarra, Derek Boateng, Charles Banya, Dino Islamović, Ronny Minkwitz, Max Oberschmidt, Josh Pritchard, and Alex Brister might have stayed at Fulham had they not been relegated. With that kind of turnover (and the reverse for promoted teams,) it's barely even the same team.
Things changed a lot after the European Court of Justice gave its Bosman ruling (they banned restrictions on foreign EU nationals within national leagues and gave players more freedoms as employees so that they can change clubs etc).
Looking at this topic, I think both systems have their merits. Obviously Europe is less regulated. Players want to play for big teams that have a rich history so Barcelona, Bayern Munchen, Ajax and so on will always compete for titles. But there is a chance for those miracle stories, sometimes a combination of good management and luck can propel small teams to something great.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I don't think American fans would have the patience to try and figure out what leagues our teams are playing in and why. We have lower leagues already, we just switch players in and out as they earn it or are injured.
Could you imagine the riots if a team likethe Cubs were relegated to the minors?
At least the Buckeyes don't suck.
At least the Buckeyes don't suck.
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